From list-managers-owner Sun Oct 1 22:50:01 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id VAA06780 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 1 Oct 1995 21:35:26 -0700 Received: from yfn.ysu.edu (YFN.YSU.EDU [192.55.234.27]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with ESMTP id VAA06773 for ; Sun, 1 Oct 1995 21:35:22 -0700 Received: (from ae411@localhost) by yfn.ysu.edu id AAA29755 (8.6.12/IDA-1.6); Mon, 2 Oct 1995 00:33:48 -0400 Date: Mon, 2 Oct 1995 00:33:48 -0400 Message-ID: <199510020433.AAA29755@yfn.ysu.edu> From: ae411@yfn.ysu.edu (Richard Baker) To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: listservers Reply-To: ae411@yfn.ysu.edu Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Hello, I'm looking for help in locating an exsisting machine that will permit another list being established. We have a non-profit radio hobby club that had used majordomo@ phoque at uqam but we out grew it and phoque can't handle it anymore. Can you point me to anyone who may help? Thanks -- Rick "RD" Baker (ae411@yfn.ysu.edu) Recorded live and direct from downtown Austintown, Ohio, the USA "Happiness is a Band Opening" -Wile E. Coyote, famous inventor From list-managers-owner Mon Oct 2 00:52:35 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id AAA10082 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 2 Oct 1995 00:51:32 -0700 Received: from vinkku.hut.fi (vinkku.hut.fi [130.233.245.1]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with ESMTP id AAA10075 for ; Mon, 2 Oct 1995 00:51:28 -0700 Received: from delta.hut.fi (delta.hut.fi [130.233.224.53]) by vinkku.hut.fi (8.6.12/8.6.7) with ESMTP id JAA28235; Mon, 2 Oct 1995 09:49:50 +0200 Received: (zarr@localhost) by delta.hut.fi (8.6.11/8.6.7) id JAA23140; Mon, 2 Oct 1995 09:49:49 +0200 Date: Mon, 2 Oct 1995 09:49:49 +0200 Message-Id: <199510020749.JAA23140@delta.hut.fi> From: Mari Sepp{ To: Wes Morgan Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Potential spam mailing In-Reply-To: <199509261402.KAA08327@skyhawk.ecc.engr.uky.edu> References: <199509261402.KAA08327@skyhawk.ecc.engr.uky.edu> Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Wes Morgan writes: > Someone connected to the National Alliance (a white-power group, it > would seem) dropped a spam in my mailbox this morning. I've appended > the headers; those of you with preemptive rejection criteria might > want to load this address up, just in case he decides to hit mailing > lists. I got one of those as well. What I would like to know is how did they choose who would get the mailing? I am a list manager only to 2 lists, both are private and not advertised anywhere. Mari From list-managers-owner Mon Oct 2 01:00:09 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id AAA10132 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 2 Oct 1995 00:54:02 -0700 Received: from vinkku.hut.fi (vinkku.hut.fi [130.233.245.1]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with ESMTP id AAA10125 for ; Mon, 2 Oct 1995 00:53:56 -0700 Received: from delta.hut.fi (delta.hut.fi [130.233.224.53]) by vinkku.hut.fi (8.6.12/8.6.7) with ESMTP id JAA28393; Mon, 2 Oct 1995 09:52:23 +0200 Received: (zarr@localhost) by delta.hut.fi (8.6.11/8.6.7) id JAA23989; Mon, 2 Oct 1995 09:52:22 +0200 Date: Mon, 2 Oct 1995 09:52:22 +0200 Message-Id: <199510020752.JAA23989@delta.hut.fi> From: Mari Sepp{ To: jeff@k9.com (Jeff Beadles) Cc: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Potential spam mailing In-Reply-To: References: Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Jeff Beadles writes: > There are ~2000 anonymous addresses, of which only around 20 were hit. > It looks like he/she is hitting address that have been posted somewhere > on usenet in the last month or three. Interesting. Then it should be limited to alt.privacy.anon-server, alt.anonymous and alt.anonymous.messages. Those are the only 3 world-wide newsgroups I have had time to post to during last months. Mari From list-managers-owner Mon Oct 2 05:00:14 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id EAA16736 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 2 Oct 1995 04:56:34 -0700 Received: from skyhawk.ecc.engr.uky.edu (skyhawk.ecc.engr.uky.edu [128.163.144.19]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with ESMTP id EAA16729 for ; Mon, 2 Oct 1995 04:56:31 -0700 Received: (from morgan@localhost) by skyhawk.ecc.engr.uky.edu (8.6.10/8.6.10) id HAA15176 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Mon, 2 Oct 1995 07:54:40 -0400 Date: Mon, 2 Oct 1995 07:54:40 -0400 From: Wes Morgan Message-Id: <199510021154.HAA15176@skyhawk.ecc.engr.uky.edu> To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: Potential spam mailing Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >What I really can't figure out is, why would anyone think any >of us *care* about this tripe? I class this sort of spam as a >form of graffitti: an attempt by a weak personality attempting >to assert its influence on what it sees as a more powerful >world. As I said before, I just don't have time for it. I usually notify the postmasters at the (apparent) source site, simply as a matter of professional courtesy; the vast majority of such incidents trace back to a security problem, and the ad- mins in questions are almost always grateful for the tipoff. Heck, *I'd* sure want to know if someone was using my boxes for such things. --Wes From list-managers-owner Mon Oct 2 14:01:03 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id NAA05521 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 2 Oct 1995 13:53:26 -0700 Received: from UUCP-GW.CC.UH.EDU (UUCP-GW.CC.UH.EDU [129.7.1.11]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with SMTP id NAA05487 for ; Mon, 2 Oct 1995 13:53:12 -0700 Received: from Taronga.COM by UUCP-GW.CC.UH.EDU with UUCP id AA25684 (5.67a/IDA-1.5 for list-managers@greatcircle.com); Mon, 2 Oct 1995 15:43:32 -0500 Received: (from arielle@localhost) by bonkers.taronga.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id PAA08413 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Mon, 2 Oct 1995 15:41:26 -0500 From: arielle@taronga.com (Stephanie da Silva) Message-Id: <199510022041.PAA08413@bonkers.taronga.com> Subject: Weird mail followup To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Date: Mon, 2 Oct 1995 15:41:25 -0500 (CDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Content-Length: 1510 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I've kind of figured out what has happened with the strange mail. Best that I can put together from what happened and from talking to people is someone put up a web site and catalogued a list of contacts for the links he made to other sides from his web page. It appears that he set this list up as a mailing list. And a poorly configured mailing list at that -- it sends bounce messages back to the message originator and not back to the list-owner. So here I am and who knows how many other people on this unmoderated reflector. The mess started when someone wrote this guy (or he wrote her, I'm not too sure the of order), but in his message to her, he Cc:'ed the reflector address. She wrote him back and she apparently has one of those mailers that automatically Cc:'s everyone listed in the header which of course, emailed the exchange through this mailing list. That started the ball rolling with the usual "Why did you send me this mail? Who are you? What's going on?" confused responses as other people responded as also included all the cc:'ed addresses (which made it harder to pin down which address was the reflector). Fortunately, this didn't mushroom. However, sending to the reflector caused one to get spammed with over 20 user unknown bounces and various replies from auto-responders. Email to both the postmaster at the site and the web maintainer has not been responded to. I don't know if the reflector is still active, I'm kind of reluctant to send anything to it to test it. From list-managers-owner Mon Oct 2 14:56:13 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id OAA08871 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 2 Oct 1995 14:50:44 -0700 Received: from netcom.netcom.com (netcom.netcom.com [192.100.81.100]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with ESMTP id OAA08863 for ; Mon, 2 Oct 1995 14:50:41 -0700 Received: by netcom.netcom.com (8.6.12/Netcom) id NAA00325; Mon, 2 Oct 1995 13:55:49 -0700 From: jadestar@netcom.com (JaDe) Message-Id: <199510022055.NAA00325@netcom.netcom.com> Subject: Re: Potential spam mailing To: zarr@snakemail.hut.fi (Mari Sepp{) Date: Mon, 2 Oct 1995 13:55:43 -0700 (PDT) Cc: morgan@engr.uky.edu, list-managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: <199510020749.JAA23140@delta.hut.fi> from "Mari Sepp{" at Oct 2, 95 09:49:49 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 670 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > Wes Morgan writes: > > Someone connected to the National Alliance (a white-power group, it > > I got one of those as well. What I would like to know is how did they > choose who would get the mailing? I am a list manager only to 2 lists, > both are private and not advertised anywhere. > > Mari Also one of the newest contractors at my site, one who has had no access to Usenet NetNews through here -- and who has not joined any mailing lists from this account (he has a private Netcom account for all that stuff) -- reported that he also got a copy of this. So the culprit is getting his/her mailing list through some other means ("sniffing" maybe?). From list-managers-owner Mon Oct 2 18:30:01 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id SAA22678 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 2 Oct 1995 18:24:23 -0700 Received: from philly.qualcomm.com (philly.qualcomm.com [129.46.50.13]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with ESMTP id SAA22671 for ; Mon, 2 Oct 1995 18:24:20 -0700 Received: from philly.qualcomm.com (localhost.qualcomm.com [127.0.0.1]) by philly.qualcomm.com (8.6.12/QC-SOLARIS-2.3.1) with SMTP id SAA19884 for ; Mon, 2 Oct 1995 18:22:51 -0700 Message-Id: <199510030122.SAA19884@philly.qualcomm.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 1.6.2 7/18/95 To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Allowing unbracketed IP addresses? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Mon, 02 Oct 1995 18:22:51 -0700 From: Keith Pilotti Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Hi everyone. I'm having a debate with one of the admins at our site who wants to allow unbracketed IP addresses on our lists, and to modify sendmail's config to process them. This type of address is frequently produced by newbies and other clueless types with misconfigured mailers, and the other admin does not want to "exclude" these people from participating in our lists. I see this as prologing the agony of newbieness on the Internet, he sees it as "being friendly". (I'll let you guess which one of us has 15+ years on the net and which one has 5. :) I want to reject these addresses and insist that (potential) subscribers get themselves configured properly -- no mercy! I'm interested in your opinion about this. Thanks... +Keith -- Keith F. Pilotti KFP@QUALCOMM.Com QUALCOMM Incorporated UNIX Computer Support Team 6455 Lusk Boulevard +1 619 658-4555 (Voice) San Diego, CA 92121-2779 +1 619 658-2115 (FAX) From list-managers-owner Mon Oct 2 19:23:01 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id TAA23839 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 2 Oct 1995 19:17:43 -0700 Received: from village.ios.com (village.ios.com [198.4.75.49]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with ESMTP id TAA23832 for ; Mon, 2 Oct 1995 19:17:37 -0700 Received: (from gsp@localhost) by village.ios.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id WAA22423; Mon, 2 Oct 1995 22:14:36 -0400 Date: Mon, 2 Oct 1995 22:14:35 -0400 (EDT) From: Daniel Pfarrer To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Potential spam mailing In-Reply-To: <199510020749.JAA23140@delta.hut.fi> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I got one of those National Alliance messages sent to one of my old e-mail address (that has not been used in about 2 years!). Those people are nuts! On Mon, 2 Oct 1995, Mari Sepp{ wrote: > Wes Morgan writes: > > Someone connected to the National Alliance (a white-power group, it > > would seem) dropped a spam in my mailbox this morning. I've appended > > the headers; those of you with preemptive rejection criteria might > > want to load this address up, just in case he decides to hit mailing > > lists. > > I got one of those as well. What I would like to know is how did they > choose who would get the mailing? I am a list manager only to 2 lists, > both are private and not advertised anywhere. > > Mari > From list-managers-owner Mon Oct 2 20:00:04 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id TAA24930 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 2 Oct 1995 19:52:34 -0700 Received: from access2.digex.net (access2.digex.net [205.197.245.193]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with ESMTP id TAA24920 for ; Mon, 2 Oct 1995 19:52:31 -0700 Received: (from asgilman@localhost) by access2.digex.net (8.6.12/8.6.12) id WAA03495 ; for ; Mon, 2 Oct 1995 22:50:59 -0400 From: Al Gilman Message-Id: <199510030250.WAA03495@access2.digex.net> Subject: Re: Allowing unbracketed IP addresses? To: kfp@qualcomm.com (Keith Pilotti) Date: Mon, 2 Oct 1995 22:50:58 -0400 (EDT) Cc: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: <199510030122.SAA19884@philly.qualcomm.com> from "Keith Pilotti" at Oct 2, 95 06:22:51 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24beta] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 1040 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Basically, I vote with your UserFriendly SysOp. Very often malformed messages are the responsibility of some bridge far from the individual's span of control. Warning messages that the individual is out of compliance, and that you are having to work around this, yes. Simply slam the door, no. The nominal Internet -- the TCP/IP internet -- recently went through a wave of downward revision of estimates of how many people it reaches (at least in the popular image). The email internet -- including all who have some sort of mail bridge on/off internet email -- is significantly larger. It is often the only ray of hope someone buried in a bureaucracy (Federal or Exxon) has that global interconnect with _individuals_ like him/herself is possible. Because the individual, who is your customer, may have only very weak influence over the factors you are talking about, you should be as permissive as you can without creating massive overhead at your operation. Al Gilman asgilman@access.digex.net http://access.digex.net/~asgilman/ From list-managers-owner Mon Oct 2 21:00:01 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id UAA26849 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 2 Oct 1995 20:53:18 -0700 Received: from hamjudo.com (hamjudo.hamjudo.com [152.160.58.1]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with SMTP id UAA26835 for ; Mon, 2 Oct 1995 20:53:13 -0700 Received: by hamjudo.com (Smail3.1.29.1 #3) id m0szyXA-000JAnC; Tue, 3 Oct 95 00:00 EDT Date: Tue, 3 Oct 1995 00:00:46 -0400 (EDT) From: Paul Haas To: Al Gilman cc: Keith Pilotti , List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Allowing unbracketed IP addresses? In-Reply-To: <199510030250.WAA03495@access2.digex.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Mon, 2 Oct 1995, Al Gilman wrote: > ... Very often > malformed messages are the responsibility of some bridge far from > the individual's span of control. > ... Because the individual, who is your > customer, may have only very weak influence over the factors you > are talking about, you should be as permissive as you can without > creating massive overhead at your operation. This depends on the nature of your list. On one of my lists, I insist that posters use fully functional reply addresses with a single @, no % or ! and a valid domain address to the right of the @. It is important on that list for any subscriber to easily send email to any poster. Before that rule I had people posting replies like: I tried to send this message to just Dweeb User , but it didn't work, so I'm sending it to the whole list... The list is so important to some individuals that they will get a functional email account somewhere else, if their corporate email is broken. I've even known people who have their companies pay for the functional email account. More usefully, some companies have gotten their broken email software fixed so the employees could use outside mailing lists. You have influence over corporate email systems if employees are told to subscribe to your list by their supervisors. You have much less influence if employees will get in trouble if they're caught reading your list on company time. Also, consider if the list will suffer if you lock out some potential subscribers because they have archaic email systems. -- Paul Haas paulh@hamjudo.com From list-managers-owner Tue Oct 3 07:23:10 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id HAA12139 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 3 Oct 1995 07:09:50 -0700 Received: from castor.cc.utu.fi (castor.cc.utu.fi [130.232.1.14]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with ESMTP id HAA12132 for ; Tue, 3 Oct 1995 07:09:43 -0700 Received: by utu.fi id <167152-1>; Tue, 3 Oct 1995 16:08:00 +0200 Subject: Re: Mail delivery software [was Best List Software for SCO] From: Matti Aarnio To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Date: Tue, 3 Oct 1995 16:07:56 +0200 (EET) In-Reply-To: <199510030223.TAA23860@miles.greatcircle.com> from "list-managers-digest-owner@GreatCircle.COM" at Oct 2, 95 07:23:08 pm MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Content-Length: 4404 Message-Id: <95Oct3.160800eet.167152-1+226@utu.fi> Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk People appear to be learning again, that the problem on lists is not that much of what MLM we run, rather what kind of mailer we have.. > From: Keith Moore > Date: Thu, 28 Sep 1995 15:20:53 -0400 > Subject: Re: Best List Software for SCO > > > Majordomo has severe scalability problems. I don't know how many > > lists you intend to run, but Majordomo, in combination with > > bulk_mailer, periodically sends our dedicated email server into the > > stratosphere with a load average of 40 to 50 when four or five > > messages to large lists (400+ users) arrive within moments of each > > other. > > I'm not surprised. Even without the Perl-related problems, the > current version of bulk_mailer will cause the creation of several > processes (instead of just one) each time a new message arrives. It > does get the message out faster, but you pay a price for this in > having all of those processes fired up. Ack, and the process startup is often heavier, than having a set of processes waiting to be activated. (See how NCSA HTTPD works - a bunch of processes with one master who does accept() connections, and then sends the newly arrived file-descriptor to a free worker.) > A big part of the problem is that sendmail isn't really designed for > high-volume mail. So for instance, it doesn't manage a limited number > of 'worker bee' processes to send outgoing mail; it fires up a > separate process every time you want to send a message out, and leaves > it to a single queue process (worker bee) to periodically "clean up" > any messages that weren't delivered on the first pass. For a > high-volume site, that's too many processes on the front-end, and not > enough processes on the back end. Right. I have been hacking at an UNIX-mailer called ZMailer, which in its new form runs transport channels (back end) in process pools, which pools can contain 1..N programs. The front-end in it is a set of router processes (1 to N) that can be run in parallel, and that are started at the systen startup. For the interested people, see: ftp://ftp.funet.fi/pub/unix/mail/zmailer/ (Look for zmailer-2.99.18 or latter) ... > ------------------------------ > > From: Info-LabVIEW List Maintainer > Date: Thu, 28 Sep 95 16:09:20 EDT > Subject: Re: Best List Software for SCO > > >bulk_mailer is really just a band-aid for sendmail, and it can only > >help so much. If you want to do lots of volume on a single machine, > >you might want to consider a different MTA. Check out Innosoft's > >PMDF, for example. > > > >Keith Moore > > Any comments on MMDF in this vein? It is one of the programs that PMDF used as a model, and not a bad one at that. ZMailer used it as a model too. > We run it here and I'm quite pleased with how it works. Of course, my lists > aren't really high volume in the sense that folks are talking here, with > about 30k/day going out - 350 users getting it as individual msgs and 1500 > getting a daily digest. > > Tom Coradeschi, Info-LabVIEW List Maintainer > > http://k-whiner.pica.army.mil/info-labview/info-labview.html > > ------------------------------ > > From: Eric Thomas > Date: Thu, 28 Sep 1995 23:14:13 +0100 > Subject: Re: Mail delivery software [was Best List Software for SCO] > > For what it's worth, here are some figures for LSMTP. The data is from > yesterday's run (24h). > > Machine #1: 275MHz Alpha, 128M > > Total: 1,474,627 deliveries > > Average delivery time: 1557 sec (25:57) > 50% delivered in less than: 50 sec (00:50) > 90% delivered in less than: 230 sec (03:50) > 95% delivered in less than: 320 sec (05:20) > 96% delivered in less than: 354 sec (05:54) > 97% delivered in less than: 401 sec (06:41) > 98% delivered in less than: 462 sec (07:42) > 99% delivered in less than: 587 sec (09:47) Eric is showing impressive figures, but what do they mean ? That is, assuming a list where there are multiple recipients at some host, are all those recipients at that host counted as one, or as individuals ? There is a big difference in handling 1000k messages with 1 recipient each, and 10k messages with 100 recipients each.. ... > Eric /Matti Aarnio From list-managers-owner Tue Oct 3 09:52:52 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id JAA15882 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 3 Oct 1995 09:34:03 -0700 Received: from wilma.cs.utk.edu (WILMA.CS.UTK.EDU [128.169.94.141]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with ESMTP id JAA15875 for ; Tue, 3 Oct 1995 09:33:59 -0700 Received: from LOCALHOST by wilma.cs.utk.edu with SMTP (cf v2.11c-UTK) id MAA24640; Tue, 3 Oct 1995 12:32:12 -0400 Message-Id: <199510031632.MAA24640@wilma.cs.utk.edu> X-URI: http://www.cs.utk.edu/~moore/ From: Keith Moore To: Keith Pilotti cc: List-Managers@greatcircle.com, moore@cs.utk.edu Subject: Re: Allowing unbracketed IP addresses? In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 02 Oct 1995 18:22:51 PDT." <199510030122.SAA19884@philly.qualcomm.com> Date: Tue, 03 Oct 1995 12:32:06 -0400 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > I'm having a debate with one of the admins at our site who wants to allow > unbracketed IP addresses on our lists, and to modify sendmail's config to > process them. > > This type of address is frequently produced by newbies and other clueless > types with misconfigured mailers, and the other admin does not want to > "exclude" these people from participating in our lists. > > I see this as prologing the agony of newbieness on the Internet, he sees > it as "being friendly". (I'll let you guess which one of us has 15+ years > on the net and which one has 5. :) I'm not sure what you mean by "unbracketed IP addresses on our lists". If you mean that you will accept subscriptions for people with malformed email addreesses, I recommend against doing so. I used to do this, but I found that such addresses almost invariably started bouncing messages fairly soon after subscribing (sometimes even beforehand). After I put a syntax checker in my mlm that refused a subscription from any invalid address, a major source of my bounce messages went away. However, the routine that bounces invalid does attempt to guess the person's correct address, and returns that guess as a suggestion. (for example, if the address was user@uk.xxx.yyy.zzz, and domain uk.xxx.yyy.zzz was found to be invalid, it guesses user@zzz.yyy.xxx.uk; if the address was user@xxx and the message came from domain xxx.yyy.zzz, the guessing routine will suggest user@xxx.yyy.zzz) This seems to work - there are many instances in my logs where an initial attempt at subscribing fails because of a bogus address but a subsequent attempt succeeds. IMHO, we're not doing users a favor by accepting invalid input and trying to interpret it, because (a) this just encourages users to generate invalid input (after all, it "works" ... so they'll tell their friends) and (b) because well-formed input has a well-defined interpretation but invalid input does not -- and sometimes we'll guess wrong. Finally, if you do want to accept user@ip-address anyway, you don't want to do it in sendmail. Instead, teach your list manager to rewrite user@ip-address to user@[ip-address]. I could go into great detail about why modifying sendmail in this way is a bad idea, but I'll just say that it's fairly difficult to get sendmail rewrite rules to tell the difference between an ip address and a domain, and any changes you make to a sendmail config file have the tendency to have unwanted side effects. Keith Moore From list-managers-owner Tue Oct 3 12:53:57 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id MAA20804 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 3 Oct 1995 12:30:54 -0700 Received: from ncbapsun2.pet.wfu.edu (ncbapsun2.pet.wfu.edu [152.11.32.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with SMTP id MAA20797 for ; Tue, 3 Oct 1995 12:30:50 -0700 Received: by ncbapsun2.pet.wfu.edu (4.1/SMI-4.0) id AA02931; Tue, 3 Oct 95 15:30:37 EDT Date: Tue, 3 Oct 95 15:30:37 EDT From: cathy@ncbapsun2.pet.wfu.edu (Cathy Eades) Message-Id: <9510031930.AA02931@ncbapsun2.pet.wfu.edu> To: list-managers@GreatCircle.com Subject: "price" of receiving mail Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I often hear of the un-scalability of sendmail and especially the combination of sendmail and majordomo. What I wonder is what is the impact on a modest departmental computer that receives (sometimes) up to 200 messages per day, 90% of which are for one particularly rabid sports fan. Naturally, the messages are not spaced randomly throughout the day, but tend to cluster at the beginning of the work day and after lunch. I *might* be able to persuade the sports fan to go for the digest edition of the mailing list, but I would want to know if the receipt of his mail is *really* making the impact that I think it is. I have to persuade, rather than demand, because the sports fan is my boss. Help! Cathy Eades e-mail: cathy@ncbapsun2.pet.wfu.edu PET Center, Div. Rad. Sciences phone: (910)716-5628 Bowman Gray School of Medicine FAX: (910)716-5639 Winston-Salem, NC 27157 From list-managers-owner Tue Oct 3 14:52:56 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id OAA24726 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 3 Oct 1995 14:37:50 -0700 Received: from maytag.graphics.cornell.edu (MAYTAG.GRAPHICS.CORNELL.EDU [128.84.247.157]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with SMTP id OAA24707 for ; Tue, 3 Oct 1995 14:37:46 -0700 Received: from localhost by maytag.graphics.cornell.edu; (5.65/1.1.8.2/07Nov94-0649PM) id AA01981; Tue, 3 Oct 1995 17:37:01 -0400 Message-Id: <9510032137.AA01981@maytag.graphics.cornell.edu> X-Mailer: exmh version 1.6gamma 3/31/95 To: cathy@ncbapsun2.pet.wfu.edu (Cathy Eades) Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.com Subject: Re: "price" of receiving mail In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 03 Oct 95 15:30:37 EDT." <9510031930.AA02931@ncbapsun2.pet.wfu.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Tue, 03 Oct 95 17:36:57 -0400 From: Mitch Collinsworth X-Mts: smtp Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >What I wonder is what >is the impact on a modest departmental computer that receives >(sometimes) up to 200 messages per day, [...] 200 per *day*? What is your modest departmental computer? It would have to be pretty lousy for 200 per day to cause it to sweat. I'm guessing your machine has other problems you haven't mentioned and you're on a witch-hunt. I'd say you're on the wrong track. Keep hunting. -Mitch From list-managers-owner Tue Oct 3 15:23:31 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id PAA26632 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 3 Oct 1995 15:20:39 -0700 Received: from ncbapsun2.pet.wfu.edu (ncbapsun2.pet.wfu.edu [152.11.32.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with SMTP id PAA26625 for ; Tue, 3 Oct 1995 15:20:35 -0700 Received: by ncbapsun2.pet.wfu.edu (4.1/SMI-4.0) id AA03691; Tue, 3 Oct 95 18:20:22 EDT Date: Tue, 3 Oct 95 18:20:22 EDT From: cathy@ncbapsun2.pet.wfu.edu (Cathy Eades) Message-Id: <9510032220.AA03691@ncbapsun2.pet.wfu.edu> To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: "price" of receiving Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Thank you, everyone who replied to my query about the load of receiving about 200 messages per day. Since I get the digest form of the list, I've only seem replies sent to me personally, but the response is over-whelmingly against the idea that receiving this amount of mail is a problem. I have a cold, one of my lists is broken, and my main machine has turned into a snail, but it made me feel a lot better getting some input ( a reality check, some might call it!) Cathy Eades e-mail: cathy@ncbapsun2.pet.wfu.edu PET Center, Div. Rad. Sciences phone: (910)716-5628 Bowman Gray School of Medicine FAX: (910)716-5639 Winston-Salem, NC 27157 From list-managers-owner Tue Oct 3 15:29:37 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id OAA25553 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 3 Oct 1995 14:59:58 -0700 Received: from wilma.cs.utk.edu (WILMA.CS.UTK.EDU [128.169.94.141]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with ESMTP id OAA25546 for ; Tue, 3 Oct 1995 14:59:55 -0700 Received: from LOCALHOST by wilma.cs.utk.edu with SMTP (cf v2.11c-UTK) id RAA25995; Tue, 3 Oct 1995 17:58:20 -0400 Message-Id: <199510032158.RAA25995@wilma.cs.utk.edu> X-URI: http://www.cs.utk.edu/~moore/ From: Keith Moore To: cathy@ncbapsun2.pet.wfu.edu (Cathy Eades) cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com, moore@cs.utk.edu Subject: Re: "price" of receiving mail In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 03 Oct 1995 15:30:37 EDT." <9510031930.AA02931@ncbapsun2.pet.wfu.edu> Date: Tue, 03 Oct 1995 17:58:12 -0400 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > I often hear of the un-scalability of sendmail and especially > the combination of sendmail and majordomo. What I wonder is what > is the impact on a modest departmental computer that receives > (sometimes) up to 200 messages per day, 90% of which are for one > particularly rabid sports fan. Our mail server is a modest machine (a sparcstation 2). It supports about 1200 users, forty or so mailing lists (some with hundreds of members), and it runs a NNTP server as well as handling local mailbox access via NFS and POP. Last time I checked, it was handling over 17,000 messages per day. It gets a little bit slow from time to time, but it continues to do its job. So I'm inclined to think that 200 messages per day isn't very much. Keith Moore From list-managers-owner Tue Oct 3 16:52:38 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id QAA00270 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 3 Oct 1995 16:34:04 -0700 Received: from SEARN.SUNET.SE (searn.sunet.se [192.36.125.4]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with SMTP id QAA00263; Tue, 3 Oct 1995 16:34:00 -0700 Message-Id: <199510032334.QAA00263@miles.greatcircle.com> Received: from SEARN.SUNET.SE by SEARN.SUNET.SE (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 4312; Wed, 04 Oct 95 00:32:40 +0100 Received: from SEARN.SUNET.SE (NJE origin ERIC@SEARN) by SEARN.SUNET.SE (LMail V1.2b/1.8b) with RFC822 id 0141; Wed, 4 Oct 1995 00:32:39 +0100 Date: Wed, 4 Oct 1995 00:08:45 +0100 From: Eric Thomas Subject: Re: Mail delivery software [was Best List Software for SCO] To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM, list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM, Matti Aarnio In-Reply-To: Message of Tue, 3 Oct 1995 16:07:56 +0200 (EET) from list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Tue, 3 Oct 1995 16:07:56 +0200 (EET) Matti Aarnio said: > Eric is showing impressive figures, but what do they mean ? That > is, assuming a list where there are multiple recipients at some > host, are all those recipients at that host counted as one, or > as individuals ? > > There is a big difference in handling 1000k messages with 1 > recipient each, and 10k messages with 100 recipients each.. This is for a typical LISTSERV workload, and the numbers are recipients. There are requests from users who want to subscribe or leave a list, there are people who order a file, but it is mostly a bunch of mailing list traffic. Some hosts like AOL.COM have a lot of subscribers. However the ratio is not as big as one may think "intuitively". For instance yesterday we had 1,490,315 deliveries and 1,104,013 connections (note that these numbers do not take the connection cache into account, they are generated from the accounting data whose purpose is to bill people if required :-), in other words this would be the number of successful TCP opens if there were no connection cache). Anyway, on the average only 1.35 RCPT TO: can be batched per connection. For smaller workloads I would expect very big variations depending on what kind of mailing lists you run, and where the MLM is located (typical university, PC shop, ISP, etc). Eric From list-managers-owner Wed Oct 4 03:52:33 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id DAA11411 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 4 Oct 1995 03:43:12 -0700 Received: from Thinkage.On.CA (thinkage.thinkage.on.ca [192.102.11.5]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with ESMTP id DAA11404 for ; Wed, 4 Oct 1995 03:43:07 -0700 Received: (hogreq@localhost) by thinkage (8.6.10(.4)/Thinkage950227) id GAA07906; Wed, 4 Oct 1995 06:40:52 -0400 Date: Wed, 4 Oct 1995 06:40:52 -0400 From: Ken Dykes - Immoderator Message-Id: <199510041040.GAA07906@Thinkage.On.CA> To: mleger@panix.com Cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: Your "Harleys" digest & reflector Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk other list managers must be getting this type of message, so i'll share my humble opinion/approach to the matter: >Date: Wed, 4 Oct 1995 01:35:33 -0500 >From: mleger@panix.com (Mark Leger) >Subject: Your "Harleys" digest & reflector >Cc: harley-owner, harleys-owner > >Dear digest & reflector owner, >Your Internet resource appeared in the first edition of THE INTERNET DIRECTORY >(published by Fawcett, a division of Random House, in October 1993). which i certainly did not approve of. >reverify the information on your digest & reflector for the second edition >of the book. *re*verify? ha! i would be much more kindly disposed to hardcopy publishers if *any* of them had EVER made any attempt at verification. i do NOT want any reference to the harley digest mentioned in the book. and there ARE many errors in the information below. i have for the last couple years been rejecting any subscription requests that show signs of being based on what is published in hardcopy. i explain to them that they are supporting an industry that has proven itself to be, and intends to be, irresponsible towards the Internet and Usenet. promises of improving things in that industry will have to wait a couple edition cycles to demonstrate to me things are better before i will risk the side-effects of involvement. also, implying raw email addresses are "URLs" is certainly stretching the definition. is this what we can expect from the 2nd edition? - Ken Dykes, Thinkage Ltd., Kitchener, Ontario, Canada [43.47N 80.52W] -------------------------------------------------------- >Resource Name: Harleys > *incorrect* >Resource Type: digest & reflector > >To be listed under: Rec+|Motorcycles > *out of date* >Short Description: Discussion about the bikes, politics, lifestyles, and >anything else of interest to Harley-Davidson motorcycle lovers. > >Long Description: > >Language(s): English > *incorrect* >Moderated: No > *incorrect* >Membership by approval only: No > >Other Comments: > >Gated to newsgroup: No > >URLs and addresses associated with this digest & reflector > Contact for information: *incomplete* > harley-request@thinkage.on.ca (Ken Dykes) > Print: Yes > > Editor (if different from contact): > No URLs on file > > Owner (if different from contact): *incorrect* > harley-owner@thinkage.on.ca *incorrect* > Print: Yes *incorrect* > harleys-owner@thinkage.on.ca *incorrect* > Print: Yes > > Admin (subcription, unsubscription, etc): *incomplete* > harley-request@thinkage.on.ca (Ken Dykes) > Print: Yes > > Posting/submissions address: > No URLs on file > > Archives: *incomplete* > No URLs on file > > FAQ: *incomplete* > No URLs on file From list-managers-owner Wed Oct 4 05:22:45 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id FAA12500 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 4 Oct 1995 05:08:15 -0700 Received: from access.netaxs.com (access.netaxs.com [198.69.186.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with ESMTP id FAA12493 for ; Wed, 4 Oct 1995 05:08:12 -0700 Received: from unix3.netaxs.com (jgreshes@unix3.netaxs.com [198.69.186.5]) by access.netaxs.com (8.6.12/8.6.11) with ESMTP id IAA08093 for ; Wed, 4 Oct 1995 08:06:45 -0400 Received: (jgreshes@localhost) by unix3.netaxs.com (8.6.12/8.6.9) id IAA17076; Wed, 4 Oct 1995 08:06:42 -0400 Date: Wed, 4 Oct 1995 08:06:41 -0400 (EDT) From: Jason and the tiny curly girl cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Your "Harleys" digest & reflector In-Reply-To: <199510041040.GAA07906@Thinkage.On.CA> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > > i have for the last couple years been rejecting any subscription requests that > show signs of being based on what is published in hardcopy. i explain to > them that they are supporting an industry that has proven itself to be, > and intends to be, irresponsible towards the Internet and Usenet. > Since yours appears to be an ideological objection based more on paranoia than anything else (do you really believe that anyone that puts press to paper is out to destroy the internet?), there really isn't much that can be said in response. Personally, I'd be more than happy to see any of my lists listed in a book or magazine. No problem at all. Interested people find out about the list and join it. That's kinda the reason I started the things. (Well, not kinda the reason, actually THE reason.) The inaccurate information is annoying, but I get incorrect subscriptions all the time b/c because people don't understand that each list serving software needs its own commands, and the software is incredibly anal. A few weeks ago my wife's list got in a bunch of subscription messages from Australia. Turned out a publication had printed the address and sub info. Out of that group she got a couple of people that are now some of the main contributors to the list. What the hell is wrong with that? All appologies for any content here that seems overly antagonistic. In my own personal experience, there are a couple of magazine publishers on my lists who joined simply out of interest in the list topic, and they have been nothing but helpful, polite, and generally good guys, and very supportive of the net. Jason -------- If your poor fragile ego can't handle anything in this message please, add a :) to the offending sentence if that helps your self-esteem. -------- for subscription info to the following lists: elastica, lisa germano, paula cole, gustav mahler, roxy music, big-east, university of miami: http://www.netaxs.com/~jgreshes/jnjlist.html -------- mahler web page: http://www.netaxs.com/~jgreshes/mahler echo and the bunnyment web page: http://www.netaxs.com/~jgreshes/echo.html Jason & Jill Greshes-Philadelphia,PA-jgreshes@netaxs.com-jgreshes@dfw.net http://www.netaxs.com/~jgreshes From list-managers-owner Wed Oct 4 10:24:17 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id KAA18738 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 4 Oct 1995 10:02:20 -0700 Received: from mail04.mail.aol.com (mail04.mail.aol.com [152.163.172.53]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with ESMTP id KAA18723 for ; Wed, 4 Oct 1995 10:02:16 -0700 From: PMDAtropos@aol.com Received: by mail04.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id NAA16245; Wed, 4 Oct 1995 13:00:13 -0400 Date: Wed, 4 Oct 1995 13:00:13 -0400 Message-ID: <951004130012_116042444@mail04.mail.aol.com> To: list-managers@greatcircle.com cc: mleger@panix.com Subject: Re: Your "Harleys" digest & reflector Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk In a message dated 95-10-04 07:03:13 EDT, harley-request@Thinkage.On.CA (Ken Dykes - Immoderator) writes: >other list managers must be getting this type of message, so i'll share >my humble opinion/approach to the matter: I've gotten requests for most of my lists. I was initially concerned, but Mark's prompt, polite and professional responses to my mail were reassuring. I've seen other paper publications which had grossly-outdated information (for example, listing my MTU or Brown University *BITNET* addresses), and which never bothered to contact me. I'm pretty pleased with Mark's efforts, and I have no problem with gaining new subscribers. My two centimes. --David O'Donnell From list-managers-owner Wed Oct 4 10:54:02 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id KAA19504 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 4 Oct 1995 10:43:24 -0700 Received: from spaatz.cap.af.mil ([132.60.58.245]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with ESMTP id KAA19496 for ; Wed, 4 Oct 1995 10:43:20 -0700 Received: from Microsoft Mail (PU Serial #0) by spaatz.cap.af.mil (PostalUnion/SMTP(tm) v2.1.7 for Windows NT(tm)) id AA-1995Oct04.122856.0.11731; Wed, 04 Oct 1995 12:42:02 -0500 From: PMDAtropos@aol.com (PMDAtroposaol.com) To: cmilam@cap.au.af.mil, list-managers@greatcircle.com (list-managers) Cc: mleger@panix.com (mleger) Message-ID: <1995Oct04.122856.0.11731@spaatz.cap.af.mil> X-Mailer: Microsoft Mail via PostalUnion/SMTP for Windows NT Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Organization: Civil Air Patrol National Headquarters Date: Wed, 04 Oct 1995 12:42:02 -0500 Subject: Re: Your "Harleys" digest & reflector Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Received: from VAXA.CIS.UWOSH.EDU by spaatz.cap.af.mil (PostalUnion/SMTP(tm) v2.1.7 for Windows NT(tm)) id AA-1995Oct04.122643.0.8667; Wed, 04 Oct 1995 12:26:55 -0500 Received: from VAXA.CIS.UWOSH.EDU by VAXA.CIS.UWOSH.EDU (PMDF V5.0-3 #11864) id <01HW1J94JUYQ002PCG@VAXA.CIS.UWOSH.EDU> for cmilam@cap.au.af.mil; Wed, 04 Oct 1995 12:26:24 -0500 (CDT) Received: from relay3.UU.NET by VAXA.CIS.UWOSH.EDU (PMDF V5.0-3 #11864) id <01HW1J81O95S002ENB@VAXA.CIS.UWOSH.EDU> for MILAMC@VAXA.CIS.UWOSH.EDU; Wed, 04 Oct 1995 12:26:08 -0500 (CDT) Received: from miles.greatcircle.com by relay3.UU.NET with ESMTP id QQzkaf11311; Wed, 04 Oct 1995 13:24:41 -0400 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id KAA18738 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 04 Oct 1995 10:02:20 -0700 Received: from mail04.mail.aol.com (mail04.mail.aol.com [152.163.172.53]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with ESMTP id KAA18723 for ; Wed, 04 Oct 1995 10:02:16 -0700 Received: by mail04.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id NAA16245; Wed, 04 Oct 1995 13:00:13 -0400 Date: Wed, 04 Oct 1995 13:00:13 -0400 From: PMDAtropos@aol.com Subject: Re: Your "Harleys" digest & reflector Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Resent-to: cmilam@cap.au.af.mil To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Cc: mleger@panix.com Resent-message-id: <01HW1J94OEXW002PCG@VAXA.CIS.UWOSH.EDU> Message-id: <951004130012_116042444@mail04.mail.aol.com> X-VMS-To: IN%"list-managers@greatcircle.com" X-VMS-Cc: IN%"mleger@panix.com" MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Precedence: bulk In a message dated 95-10-04 07:03:13 EDT, harley-request@Thinkage.On.CA (Ken Dykes - Immoderator) writes: >other list managers must be getting this type of message, so i'll share >my humble opinion/approach to the matter: I've gotten requests for most of my lists. I was initially concerned, but Mark's prompt, polite and professional responses to my mail were reassuring. I've seen other paper publications which had grossly-outdated information (for example, listing my MTU or Brown University *BITNET* addresses), and which never bothered to contact me. I'm pretty pleased with Mark's efforts, and I have no problem with gaining new subscribers. My two centimes. --David O'Donnell From list-managers-owner Thu Oct 5 07:00:06 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id GAA23478 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 5 Oct 1995 06:54:42 -0700 Received: from pcnet1.pcnet.com (pcnet1.pcnet.com [204.213.232.3]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with SMTP id GAA23471 for ; Thu, 5 Oct 1995 06:54:38 -0700 Received: from [204.213.234.125] (ts4-pt25.pcnet.com) by pcnet1.pcnet.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA28981; Thu, 5 Oct 95 09:55:30 EDT Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 5 Oct 1995 09:54:54 -0500 To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM From: gbs@panix.com (Eric Harris-Braun) Subject: Re: Your "Harleys" digest & reflector Cc: mleger@panix.com Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >>Dear digest & reflector owner, >>Your Internet resource appeared in the first edition of THE INTERNET DIRECTORY >>(published by Fawcett, a division of Random House, in October 1993). > >which i certainly did not approve of. > >>reverify the information on your digest & reflector for the second edition >>of the book. > >*re*verify? ha! i would be much more kindly disposed to hardcopy publishers >if *any* of them had EVER made any attempt at verification. > I'd like to publicly apologize to Mr. Dykes for having mistakenly printed an entry on his mailing list in the first edition of _The Internet Directory_ without his permission. I went back through my records and indeed, I could not find a verification letter from him regarding his mailing list. I messed up. I'm sorry. Going into the project, I knew that I would probably make a few mistakes and I'd print a few lists without verifications despite my best efforts. But I'm happy to say that after two years this is the first case I've heard of, though I'm sure there are probably others. So despite having made mistakes, there are megabytes of data on my hard drive that are a clear testament to the many hours I spent sending out permission requests and verification letters for mailing lists. >i do NOT want any reference to the harley digest mentioned in the book. >and there ARE many errors in the information below. Of course there are many errors, things change quickly on the net; that's why we send out verification letters! If there are any other list owners who's mailing lists were in the last edition and who would prefer not to have them listed in the new edition, please, just drop me a note. If there are any list owners who have not received verification letters and _would_ like to be listed, you can also drop me a note and I'll point you to web form for entering your information as soon as it gets up (there is one for WWW resources at http://www.randomhouse.com/id but the one for mailing lists hasn't been completed yet). -Eric ______________________________________________________________________ Eric Harris-Braun gbs@panix.com From list-managers-owner Thu Oct 5 08:53:01 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id IAA26246 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 5 Oct 1995 08:39:46 -0700 Received: from cap.au.af.mil ([132.60.58.245]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with ESMTP id IAA26239 for ; Thu, 5 Oct 1995 08:39:40 -0700 Received: from Microsoft Mail (PU Serial #0) by cap.au.af.mil (PostalUnion/SMTP(tm) v2.1.7 for Windows NT(tm)) id AA-1995Oct04.124654.0.12140; Thu, 05 Oct 1995 10:38:24 -0500 From: PMDAtropos@aol.com (PMDAtroposaol.com) To: cmilam@cap.au.af.mil (cmilam), list-managers@greatcircle.com (list-managers) Cc: mleger@panix.com (mleger) Message-ID: <1995Oct04.124654.0.12140@cap.au.af.mil> X-Mailer: Microsoft Mail via PostalUnion/SMTP for Windows NT Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Organization: Civil Air Patrol National Headquarters Date: Thu, 05 Oct 1995 10:38:24 -0500 Subject: Re: Your "Harleys" digest & reflector Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Received: from spaatz.cap.af.mil by spaatz.cap.af.mil (PostalUnion/SMTP(tm) v2.1.7 for Windows NT(tm)) id AA-1995Oct04.124218.0.8741; Wed, 04 Oct 1995 12:42:18 -0500 Received: from Microsoft Mail (PU Serial #0) by spaatz.cap.af.mil (PostalUnion/SMTP(tm) v2.1.7 for Windows NT(tm)) id AA-1995Oct04.122856.0.11737; Wed, 04 Oct 1995 12:42:19 -0500 From: PMDAtropos@aol.com (PMDAtroposaol.com) To: cmilam@cap.au.af.mil , list-managers@greatcircle.com (list-managers) Cc: mleger@panix.com (mleger) Message-ID: <1995Oct04.122856.0.11737@spaatz.cap.af.mil> X-Mailer: Microsoft Mail via PostalUnion/SMTP for Windows NT Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Organization: Civil Air Patrol National Headquarters Date: Wed, 04 Oct 1995 12:42:19 -0500 Subject: Re: Your "Harleys" digest & reflector Received: from VAXA.CIS.UWOSH.EDU by spaatz.cap.af.mil (PostalUnion/SMTP(tm) v2.1.7 for Windows NT(tm)) id AA-1995Oct04.122643.0.8667; Wed, 04 Oct 1995 12:26:55 -0500 Received: from VAXA.CIS.UWOSH.EDU by VAXA.CIS.UWOSH.EDU (PMDF V5.0-3 #11864) id <01HW1J94JUYQ002PCG@VAXA.CIS.UWOSH.EDU> for cmilam@cap.au.af.mil; Wed, 04 Oct 1995 12:26:24 -0500 (CDT) Received: from relay3.UU.NET by VAXA.CIS.UWOSH.EDU (PMDF V5.0-3 #11864) id <01HW1J81O95S002ENB@VAXA.CIS.UWOSH.EDU> for MILAMC@VAXA.CIS.UWOSH.EDU; Wed, 04 Oct 1995 12:26:08 -0500 (CDT) Received: from miles.greatcircle.com by relay3.UU.NET with ESMTP id QQzkaf11311; Wed, 04 Oct 1995 13:24:41 -0400 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id KAA18738 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 04 Oct 1995 10:02:20 -0700 Received: from mail04.mail.aol.com (mail04.mail.aol.com [152.163.172.53]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with ESMTP id KAA18723 for ; Wed, 04 Oct 1995 10:02:16 -0700 Received: by mail04.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id NAA16245; Wed, 04 Oct 1995 13:00:13 -0400 Date: Wed, 04 Oct 1995 13:00:13 -0400 From: PMDAtropos@aol.com Subject: Re: Your "Harleys" digest & reflector Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Resent-to: cmilam@cap.au.af.mil To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Cc: mleger@panix.com Resent-message-id: <01HW1J94OEXW002PCG@VAXA.CIS.UWOSH.EDU> Message-id: <951004130012_116042444@mail04.mail.aol.com> X-VMS-To: IN%"list-managers@greatcircle.com" X-VMS-Cc: IN%"mleger@panix.com" Precedence: bulk In a message dated 95-10-04 07:03:13 EDT, harley-request@Thinkage.On.CA (Ken Dykes - Immoderator) writes: >other list managers must be getting this type of message, so i'll share >my humble opinion/approach to the matter: I've gotten requests for most of my lists. I was initially concerned, but Mark's prompt, polite and professional responses to my mail were reassuring. I've seen other paper publications which had grossly-outdated information (for example, listing my MTU or Brown University *BITNET* addresses), and which never bothered to contact me. I'm pretty pleased with Mark's efforts, and I have no problem with gaining new subscribers. My two centimes. --David O'Donnell From list-managers-owner Thu Oct 5 09:00:08 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id IAA26637 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 5 Oct 1995 08:52:01 -0700 Received: from cap.au.af.mil ([132.60.58.245]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with ESMTP id IAA26628 for ; Thu, 5 Oct 1995 08:51:57 -0700 Received: from Microsoft Mail (PU Serial #0) by cap.au.af.mil (PostalUnion/SMTP(tm) v2.1.7 for Windows NT(tm)) id AA-1995Oct05.073714.0.12257; Thu, 05 Oct 1995 10:50:40 -0500 From: PMDAtropos@aol.com (PMDAtroposaol.com) To: cmilam@cap.au.af.mil (cmilam), list-managers@greatcircle.com (list-managers) Cc: mleger@panix.com (mleger) Message-ID: <1995Oct05.073714.0.12257@cap.au.af.mil> X-Mailer: Microsoft Mail via PostalUnion/SMTP for Windows NT Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Organization: Civil Air Patrol National Headquarters Date: Thu, 05 Oct 1995 10:50:40 -0500 Subject: Re: Your "Harleys" digest & reflector Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Received: from cap.au.af.mil by cap.au.af.mil (PostalUnion/SMTP(tm) v2.1.7 for Windows NT(tm)) id AA-1995Oct05.073411.0.8823; Thu, 05 Oct 1995 07:34:11 -0500 Received: from Microsoft Mail (PU Serial #0) by cap.au.af.mil (PostalUnion/SMTP(tm) v2.1.7 for Windows NT(tm)) id AA-1995Oct04.124654.0.11865; Thu, 05 Oct 1995 07:34:11 -0500 From: PMDAtropos@aol.com (PMDAtroposaol.com) To: cmilam@cap.au.af.mil (cmilam), list-managers@greatcircle.com (list-managers) Cc: mleger@panix.com (mleger) Message-ID: <1995Oct04.124654.0.11865@cap.au.af.mil> X-Mailer: Microsoft Mail via PostalUnion/SMTP for Windows NT Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Organization: Civil Air Patrol National Headquarters Date: Thu, 05 Oct 1995 07:34:11 -0500 Subject: Re: Your "Harleys" digest & reflector Received: from spaatz.cap.af.mil by spaatz.cap.af.mil (PostalUnion/SMTP(tm) v2.1.7 for Windows NT(tm)) id AA-1995Oct04.124218.0.8741; Wed, 04 Oct 1995 12:42:18 -0500 Received: from Microsoft Mail (PU Serial #0) by spaatz.cap.af.mil (PostalUnion/SMTP(tm) v2.1.7 for Windows NT(tm)) id AA-1995Oct04.122856.0.11737; Wed, 04 Oct 1995 12:42:19 -0500 From: PMDAtropos@aol.com (PMDAtroposaol.com) To: cmilam@cap.au.af.mil , list-managers@greatcircle.com (list-managers) Cc: mleger@panix.com (mleger) Message-ID: <1995Oct04.122856.0.11737@spaatz.cap.af.mil> X-Mailer: Microsoft Mail via PostalUnion/SMTP for Windows NT Organization: Civil Air Patrol National Headquarters Date: Wed, 04 Oct 1995 12:42:19 -0500 Subject: Re: Your "Harleys" digest & reflector Received: from VAXA.CIS.UWOSH.EDU by spaatz.cap.af.mil (PostalUnion/SMTP(tm) v2.1.7 for Windows NT(tm)) id AA-1995Oct04.122643.0.8667; Wed, 04 Oct 1995 12:26:55 -0500 Received: from VAXA.CIS.UWOSH.EDU by VAXA.CIS.UWOSH.EDU (PMDF V5.0-3 #11864) id <01HW1J94JUYQ002PCG@VAXA.CIS.UWOSH.EDU> for cmilam@cap.au.af.mil; Wed, 04 Oct 1995 12:26:24 -0500 (CDT) Received: from relay3.UU.NET by VAXA.CIS.UWOSH.EDU (PMDF V5.0-3 #11864) id <01HW1J81O95S002ENB@VAXA.CIS.UWOSH.EDU> for MILAMC@VAXA.CIS.UWOSH.EDU; Wed, 04 Oct 1995 12:26:08 -0500 (CDT) Received: from miles.greatcircle.com by relay3.UU.NET with ESMTP id QQzkaf11311; Wed, 04 Oct 1995 13:24:41 -0400 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id KAA18738 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 04 Oct 1995 10:02:20 -0700 Received: from mail04.mail.aol.com (mail04.mail.aol.com [152.163.172.53]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with ESMTP id KAA18723 for ; Wed, 04 Oct 1995 10:02:16 -0700 Received: by mail04.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id NAA16245; Wed, 04 Oct 1995 13:00:13 -0400 Date: Wed, 04 Oct 1995 13:00:13 -0400 From: PMDAtropos@aol.com Subject: Re: Your "Harleys" digest & reflector Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Resent-to: cmilam@cap.au.af.mil To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Cc: mleger@panix.com Resent-message-id: <01HW1J94OEXW002PCG@VAXA.CIS.UWOSH.EDU> Message-id: <951004130012_116042444@mail04.mail.aol.com> X-VMS-To: IN%"list-managers@greatcircle.com" X-VMS-Cc: IN%"mleger@panix.com" Precedence: bulk In a message dated 95-10-04 07:03:13 EDT, harley-request@Thinkage.On.CA (Ken Dykes - Immoderator) writes: >other list managers must be getting this type of message, so i'll share >my humble opinion/approach to the matter: I've gotten requests for most of my lists. I was initially concerned, but Mark's prompt, polite and professional responses to my mail were reassuring. I've seen other paper publications which had grossly-outdated information (for example, listing my MTU or Brown University *BITNET* addresses), and which never bothered to contact me. I'm pretty pleased with Mark's efforts, and I have no problem with gaining new subscribers. My two centimes. --David O'Donnell From list-managers-owner Thu Oct 5 09:24:22 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id IAA26828 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 5 Oct 1995 08:56:58 -0700 Received: from cap.au.af.mil ([132.60.58.245]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with ESMTP id IAA26821 for ; Thu, 5 Oct 1995 08:56:53 -0700 Received: from Microsoft Mail (PU Serial #0) by cap.au.af.mil (PostalUnion/SMTP(tm) v2.1.7 for Windows NT(tm)) id AA-1995Oct05.081235.0.12352; Thu, 05 Oct 1995 10:55:36 -0500 From: PMDAtropos@aol.com (PMDAtroposaol.com) To: cmilam@cap.au.af.mil (cmilam), list-managers@greatcircle.com (list-managers) Cc: mleger@panix.com (mleger) Message-ID: <1995Oct05.081235.0.12352@cap.au.af.mil> X-Mailer: Microsoft Mail via PostalUnion/SMTP for Windows NT Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Organization: Civil Air Patrol National Headquarters Date: Thu, 05 Oct 1995 10:55:36 -0500 Subject: Re: Your "Harleys" digest & reflector Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Received: from cap.au.af.mil by cap.au.af.mil (PostalUnion/SMTP(tm) v2.1.7 for Windows NT(tm)) id AA-1995Oct05.080835.0.8852; Thu, 05 Oct 1995 08:08:35 -0500 Received: from Microsoft Mail (PU Serial #0) by cap.au.af.mil (PostalUnion/SMTP(tm) v2.1.7 for Windows NT(tm)) id AA-1995Oct05.073714.0.11924; Thu, 05 Oct 1995 08:08:36 -0500 From: PMDAtropos@aol.com (PMDAtroposaol.com) To: cmilam@cap.au.af.mil (cmilam), list-managers@greatcircle.com (list-managers) Cc: mleger@panix.com (mleger) Message-ID: <1995Oct05.073714.0.11924@cap.au.af.mil> X-Mailer: Microsoft Mail via PostalUnion/SMTP for Windows NT Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Organization: Civil Air Patrol National Headquarters Date: Thu, 05 Oct 1995 08:08:36 -0500 Subject: Re: Your "Harleys" digest & reflector Received: from cap.au.af.mil by cap.au.af.mil (PostalUnion/SMTP(tm) v2.1.7 for Windows NT(tm)) id AA-1995Oct05.073411.0.8823; Thu, 05 Oct 1995 07:34:11 -0500 Received: from Microsoft Mail (PU Serial #0) by cap.au.af.mil (PostalUnion/SMTP(tm) v2.1.7 for Windows NT(tm)) id AA-1995Oct04.124654.0.11865; Thu, 05 Oct 1995 07:34:11 -0500 From: PMDAtropos@aol.com (PMDAtroposaol.com) To: cmilam@cap.au.af.mil (cmilam), list-managers@greatcircle.com (list-managers) Cc: mleger@panix.com (mleger) Message-ID: <1995Oct04.124654.0.11865@cap.au.af.mil> X-Mailer: Microsoft Mail via PostalUnion/SMTP for Windows NT Organization: Civil Air Patrol National Headquarters Date: Thu, 05 Oct 1995 07:34:11 -0500 Subject: Re: Your "Harleys" digest & reflector Received: from spaatz.cap.af.mil by spaatz.cap.af.mil (PostalUnion/SMTP(tm) v2.1.7 for Windows NT(tm)) id AA-1995Oct04.124218.0.8741; Wed, 04 Oct 1995 12:42:18 -0500 Received: from Microsoft Mail (PU Serial #0) by spaatz.cap.af.mil (PostalUnion/SMTP(tm) v2.1.7 for Windows NT(tm)) id AA-1995Oct04.122856.0.11737; Wed, 04 Oct 1995 12:42:19 -0500 From: PMDAtropos@aol.com (PMDAtroposaol.com) To: cmilam@cap.au.af.mil , list-managers@greatcircle.com (list-managers) Cc: mleger@panix.com (mleger) Message-ID: <1995Oct04.122856.0.11737@spaatz.cap.af.mil> X-Mailer: Microsoft Mail via PostalUnion/SMTP for Windows NT Organization: Civil Air Patrol National Headquarters Date: Wed, 04 Oct 1995 12:42:19 -0500 Subject: Re: Your "Harleys" digest & reflector Received: from VAXA.CIS.UWOSH.EDU by spaatz.cap.af.mil (PostalUnion/SMTP(tm) v2.1.7 for Windows NT(tm)) id AA-1995Oct04.122643.0.8667; Wed, 04 Oct 1995 12:26:55 -0500 Received: from VAXA.CIS.UWOSH.EDU by VAXA.CIS.UWOSH.EDU (PMDF V5.0-3 #11864) id <01HW1J94JUYQ002PCG@VAXA.CIS.UWOSH.EDU> for cmilam@cap.au.af.mil; Wed, 04 Oct 1995 12:26:24 -0500 (CDT) Received: from relay3.UU.NET by VAXA.CIS.UWOSH.EDU (PMDF V5.0-3 #11864) id <01HW1J81O95S002ENB@VAXA.CIS.UWOSH.EDU> for MILAMC@VAXA.CIS.UWOSH.EDU; Wed, 04 Oct 1995 12:26:08 -0500 (CDT) Received: from miles.greatcircle.com by relay3.UU.NET with ESMTP id QQzkaf11311; Wed, 04 Oct 1995 13:24:41 -0400 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id KAA18738 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 04 Oct 1995 10:02:20 -0700 Received: from mail04.mail.aol.com (mail04.mail.aol.com [152.163.172.53]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with ESMTP id KAA18723 for ; Wed, 04 Oct 1995 10:02:16 -0700 Received: by mail04.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id NAA16245; Wed, 04 Oct 1995 13:00:13 -0400 Date: Wed, 04 Oct 1995 13:00:13 -0400 From: PMDAtropos@aol.com Subject: Re: Your "Harleys" digest & reflector Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Resent-to: cmilam@cap.au.af.mil To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Cc: mleger@panix.com Resent-message-id: <01HW1J94OEXW002PCG@VAXA.CIS.UWOSH.EDU> Message-id: <951004130012_116042444@mail04.mail.aol.com> X-VMS-To: IN%"list-managers@greatcircle.com" X-VMS-Cc: IN%"mleger@panix.com" Precedence: bulk In a message dated 95-10-04 07:03:13 EDT, harley-request@Thinkage.On.CA (Ken Dykes - Immoderator) writes: >other list managers must be getting this type of message, so i'll share >my humble opinion/approach to the matter: I've gotten requests for most of my lists. I was initially concerned, but Mark's prompt, polite and professional responses to my mail were reassuring. I've seen other paper publications which had grossly-outdated information (for example, listing my MTU or Brown University *BITNET* addresses), and which never bothered to contact me. I'm pretty pleased with Mark's efforts, and I have no problem with gaining new subscribers. My two centimes. --David O'Donnell From list-managers-owner Thu Oct 5 09:29:18 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id JAA26942 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 5 Oct 1995 09:00:11 -0700 Received: from cap.au.af.mil ([132.60.58.245]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with ESMTP id IAA26901 for ; Thu, 5 Oct 1995 08:59:50 -0700 Received: from Microsoft Mail (PU Serial #0) by cap.au.af.mil (PostalUnion/SMTP(tm) v2.1.7 for Windows NT(tm)) id AA-1995Oct05.084632.0.12445; Thu, 05 Oct 1995 10:58:33 -0500 From: PMDAtropos@aol.com (PMDAtroposaol.com) To: cmilam@cap.au.af.mil (cmilam), list-managers@greatcircle.com (list-managers) Cc: mleger@panix.com (mleger) Message-ID: <1995Oct05.084632.0.12445@cap.au.af.mil> X-Mailer: Microsoft Mail via PostalUnion/SMTP for Windows NT Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Organization: Civil Air Patrol National Headquarters Date: Thu, 05 Oct 1995 10:58:33 -0500 Subject: Re: Your "Harleys" digest & reflector Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Received: from cap.au.af.mil by cap.au.af.mil (PostalUnion/SMTP(tm) v2.1.7 for Windows NT(tm)) id AA-1995Oct05.084103.0.8892; Thu, 05 Oct 1995 08:41:04 -0500 Received: from Microsoft Mail (PU Serial #0) by cap.au.af.mil (PostalUnion/SMTP(tm) v2.1.7 for Windows NT(tm)) id AA-1995Oct05.081235.0.12008; Thu, 05 Oct 1995 08:41:04 -0500 From: PMDAtropos@aol.com (PMDAtroposaol.com) To: cmilam@cap.au.af.mil (cmilam), list-managers@greatcircle.com (list-managers) Cc: mleger@panix.com (mleger) Message-ID: <1995Oct05.081235.0.12008@cap.au.af.mil> X-Mailer: Microsoft Mail via PostalUnion/SMTP for Windows NT Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Organization: Civil Air Patrol National Headquarters Date: Thu, 05 Oct 1995 08:41:04 -0500 Subject: Re: Your "Harleys" digest & reflector Received: from cap.au.af.mil by cap.au.af.mil (PostalUnion/SMTP(tm) v2.1.7 for Windows NT(tm)) id AA-1995Oct05.080835.0.8852; Thu, 05 Oct 1995 08:08:35 -0500 Received: from Microsoft Mail (PU Serial #0) by cap.au.af.mil (PostalUnion/SMTP(tm) v2.1.7 for Windows NT(tm)) id AA-1995Oct05.073714.0.11924; Thu, 05 Oct 1995 08:08:36 -0500 From: PMDAtropos@aol.com (PMDAtroposaol.com) To: cmilam@cap.au.af.mil (cmilam), list-managers@greatcircle.com (list-managers) Cc: mleger@panix.com (mleger) Message-ID: <1995Oct05.073714.0.11924@cap.au.af.mil> X-Mailer: Microsoft Mail via PostalUnion/SMTP for Windows NT Organization: Civil Air Patrol National Headquarters Date: Thu, 05 Oct 1995 08:08:36 -0500 Subject: Re: Your "Harleys" digest & reflector Received: from cap.au.af.mil by cap.au.af.mil (PostalUnion/SMTP(tm) v2.1.7 for Windows NT(tm)) id AA-1995Oct05.073411.0.8823; Thu, 05 Oct 1995 07:34:11 -0500 Received: from Microsoft Mail (PU Serial #0) by cap.au.af.mil (PostalUnion/SMTP(tm) v2.1.7 for Windows NT(tm)) id AA-1995Oct04.124654.0.11865; Thu, 05 Oct 1995 07:34:11 -0500 From: PMDAtropos@aol.com (PMDAtroposaol.com) To: cmilam@cap.au.af.mil (cmilam), list-managers@greatcircle.com (list-managers) Cc: mleger@panix.com (mleger) Message-ID: <1995Oct04.124654.0.11865@cap.au.af.mil> X-Mailer: Microsoft Mail via PostalUnion/SMTP for Windows NT Organization: Civil Air Patrol National Headquarters Date: Thu, 05 Oct 1995 07:34:11 -0500 Subject: Re: Your "Harleys" digest & reflector Received: from spaatz.cap.af.mil by spaatz.cap.af.mil (PostalUnion/SMTP(tm) v2.1.7 for Windows NT(tm)) id AA-1995Oct04.124218.0.8741; Wed, 04 Oct 1995 12:42:18 -0500 Received: from Microsoft Mail (PU Serial #0) by spaatz.cap.af.mil (PostalUnion/SMTP(tm) v2.1.7 for Windows NT(tm)) id AA-1995Oct04.122856.0.11737; Wed, 04 Oct 1995 12:42:19 -0500 From: PMDAtropos@aol.com (PMDAtroposaol.com) To: cmilam@cap.au.af.mil , list-managers@greatcircle.com (list-managers) Cc: mleger@panix.com (mleger) Message-ID: <1995Oct04.122856.0.11737@spaatz.cap.af.mil> X-Mailer: Microsoft Mail via PostalUnion/SMTP for Windows NT Organization: Civil Air Patrol National Headquarters Date: Wed, 04 Oct 1995 12:42:19 -0500 Subject: Re: Your "Harleys" digest & reflector Received: from VAXA.CIS.UWOSH.EDU by spaatz.cap.af.mil (PostalUnion/SMTP(tm) v2.1.7 for Windows NT(tm)) id AA-1995Oct04.122643.0.8667; Wed, 04 Oct 1995 12:26:55 -0500 Received: from VAXA.CIS.UWOSH.EDU by VAXA.CIS.UWOSH.EDU (PMDF V5.0-3 #11864) id <01HW1J94JUYQ002PCG@VAXA.CIS.UWOSH.EDU> for cmilam@cap.au.af.mil; Wed, 04 Oct 1995 12:26:24 -0500 (CDT) Received: from relay3.UU.NET by VAXA.CIS.UWOSH.EDU (PMDF V5.0-3 #11864) id <01HW1J81O95S002ENB@VAXA.CIS.UWOSH.EDU> for MILAMC@VAXA.CIS.UWOSH.EDU; Wed, 04 Oct 1995 12:26:08 -0500 (CDT) Received: from miles.greatcircle.com by relay3.UU.NET with ESMTP id QQzkaf11311; Wed, 04 Oct 1995 13:24:41 -0400 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id KAA18738 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 04 Oct 1995 10:02:20 -0700 Received: from mail04.mail.aol.com (mail04.mail.aol.com [152.163.172.53]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with ESMTP id KAA18723 for ; Wed, 04 Oct 1995 10:02:16 -0700 Received: by mail04.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id NAA16245; Wed, 04 Oct 1995 13:00:13 -0400 Date: Wed, 04 Oct 1995 13:00:13 -0400 From: PMDAtropos@aol.com Subject: Re: Your "Harleys" digest & reflector Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Resent-to: cmilam@cap.au.af.mil To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Cc: mleger@panix.com Resent-message-id: <01HW1J94OEXW002PCG@VAXA.CIS.UWOSH.EDU> Message-id: <951004130012_116042444@mail04.mail.aol.com> X-VMS-To: IN%"list-managers@greatcircle.com" X-VMS-Cc: IN%"mleger@panix.com" Precedence: bulk In a message dated 95-10-04 07:03:13 EDT, harley-request@Thinkage.On.CA (Ken Dykes - Immoderator) writes: >other list managers must be getting this type of message, so i'll share >my humble opinion/approach to the matter: I've gotten requests for most of my lists. I was initially concerned, but Mark's prompt, polite and professional responses to my mail were reassuring. I've seen other paper publications which had grossly-outdated information (for example, listing my MTU or Brown University *BITNET* addresses), and which never bothered to contact me. I'm pretty pleased with Mark's efforts, and I have no problem with gaining new subscribers. My two centimes. --David O'Donnell From list-managers-owner Thu Oct 5 09:31:01 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id JAA27088 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 5 Oct 1995 09:01:59 -0700 Received: from cap.au.af.mil ([132.60.58.245]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with ESMTP id JAA27078 for ; Thu, 5 Oct 1995 09:01:50 -0700 Received: from Microsoft Mail (PU Serial #0) by cap.au.af.mil (PostalUnion/SMTP(tm) v2.1.7 for Windows NT(tm)) id AA-1995Oct05.093200.0.12537; Thu, 05 Oct 1995 11:00:34 -0500 From: PMDAtropos@aol.com (PMDAtroposaol.com) To: cmilam@cap.au.af.mil (cmilam), list-managers@greatcircle.com (list-managers) Cc: mleger@panix.com (mleger) Message-ID: <1995Oct05.093200.0.12537@cap.au.af.mil> X-Mailer: Microsoft Mail via PostalUnion/SMTP for Windows NT Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Organization: Civil Air Patrol National Headquarters Date: Thu, 05 Oct 1995 11:00:34 -0500 Subject: Re: Your "Harleys" digest & reflector Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Received: from cap.au.af.mil by cap.au.af.mil (PostalUnion/SMTP(tm) v2.1.7 for Windows NT(tm)) id AA-1995Oct05.092749.0.8936; Thu, 05 Oct 1995 09:27:49 -0500 Received: from Microsoft Mail (PU Serial #0) by cap.au.af.mil (PostalUnion/SMTP(tm) v2.1.7 for Windows NT(tm)) id AA-1995Oct05.084632.0.12093; Thu, 05 Oct 1995 09:27:49 -0500 From: PMDAtropos@aol.com (PMDAtroposaol.com) To: cmilam@cap.au.af.mil (cmilam), list-managers@greatcircle.com (list-managers) Cc: mleger@panix.com (mleger) Message-ID: <1995Oct05.084632.0.12093@cap.au.af.mil> X-Mailer: Microsoft Mail via PostalUnion/SMTP for Windows NT Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Organization: Civil Air Patrol National Headquarters Date: Thu, 05 Oct 1995 09:27:49 -0500 Subject: Re: Your "Harleys" digest & reflector Received: from cap.au.af.mil by cap.au.af.mil (PostalUnion/SMTP(tm) v2.1.7 for Windows NT(tm)) id AA-1995Oct05.084103.0.8892; Thu, 05 Oct 1995 08:41:04 -0500 Received: from Microsoft Mail (PU Serial #0) by cap.au.af.mil (PostalUnion/SMTP(tm) v2.1.7 for Windows NT(tm)) id AA-1995Oct05.081235.0.12008; Thu, 05 Oct 1995 08:41:04 -0500 From: PMDAtropos@aol.com (PMDAtroposaol.com) To: cmilam@cap.au.af.mil (cmilam), list-managers@greatcircle.com (list-managers) Cc: mleger@panix.com (mleger) Message-ID: <1995Oct05.081235.0.12008@cap.au.af.mil> X-Mailer: Microsoft Mail via PostalUnion/SMTP for Windows NT Organization: Civil Air Patrol National Headquarters Date: Thu, 05 Oct 1995 08:41:04 -0500 Subject: Re: Your "Harleys" digest & reflector Received: from cap.au.af.mil by cap.au.af.mil (PostalUnion/SMTP(tm) v2.1.7 for Windows NT(tm)) id AA-1995Oct05.080835.0.8852; Thu, 05 Oct 1995 08:08:35 -0500 Received: from Microsoft Mail (PU Serial #0) by cap.au.af.mil (PostalUnion/SMTP(tm) v2.1.7 for Windows NT(tm)) id AA-1995Oct05.073714.0.11924; Thu, 05 Oct 1995 08:08:36 -0500 From: PMDAtropos@aol.com (PMDAtroposaol.com) To: cmilam@cap.au.af.mil (cmilam), list-managers@greatcircle.com (list-managers) Cc: mleger@panix.com (mleger) Message-ID: <1995Oct05.073714.0.11924@cap.au.af.mil> X-Mailer: Microsoft Mail via PostalUnion/SMTP for Windows NT Organization: Civil Air Patrol National Headquarters Date: Thu, 05 Oct 1995 08:08:36 -0500 Subject: Re: Your "Harleys" digest & reflector Received: from cap.au.af.mil by cap.au.af.mil (PostalUnion/SMTP(tm) v2.1.7 for Windows NT(tm)) id AA-1995Oct05.073411.0.8823; Thu, 05 Oct 1995 07:34:11 -0500 Received: from Microsoft Mail (PU Serial #0) by cap.au.af.mil (PostalUnion/SMTP(tm) v2.1.7 for Windows NT(tm)) id AA-1995Oct04.124654.0.11865; Thu, 05 Oct 1995 07:34:11 -0500 From: PMDAtropos@aol.com (PMDAtroposaol.com) To: cmilam@cap.au.af.mil (cmilam), list-managers@greatcircle.com (list-managers) Cc: mleger@panix.com (mleger) Message-ID: <1995Oct04.124654.0.11865@cap.au.af.mil> X-Mailer: Microsoft Mail via PostalUnion/SMTP for Windows NT Organization: Civil Air Patrol National Headquarters Date: Thu, 05 Oct 1995 07:34:11 -0500 Subject: Re: Your "Harleys" digest & reflector Received: from spaatz.cap.af.mil by spaatz.cap.af.mil (PostalUnion/SMTP(tm) v2.1.7 for Windows NT(tm)) id AA-1995Oct04.124218.0.8741; Wed, 04 Oct 1995 12:42:18 -0500 Received: from Microsoft Mail (PU Serial #0) by spaatz.cap.af.mil (PostalUnion/SMTP(tm) v2.1.7 for Windows NT(tm)) id AA-1995Oct04.122856.0.11737; Wed, 04 Oct 1995 12:42:19 -0500 From: PMDAtropos@aol.com (PMDAtroposaol.com) To: cmilam@cap.au.af.mil , list-managers@greatcircle.com (list-managers) Cc: mleger@panix.com (mleger) Message-ID: <1995Oct04.122856.0.11737@spaatz.cap.af.mil> X-Mailer: Microsoft Mail via PostalUnion/SMTP for Windows NT Organization: Civil Air Patrol National Headquarters Date: Wed, 04 Oct 1995 12:42:19 -0500 Subject: Re: Your "Harleys" digest & reflector Received: from VAXA.CIS.UWOSH.EDU by spaatz.cap.af.mil (PostalUnion/SMTP(tm) v2.1.7 for Windows NT(tm)) id AA-1995Oct04.122643.0.8667; Wed, 04 Oct 1995 12:26:55 -0500 Received: from VAXA.CIS.UWOSH.EDU by VAXA.CIS.UWOSH.EDU (PMDF V5.0-3 #11864) id <01HW1J94JUYQ002PCG@VAXA.CIS.UWOSH.EDU> for cmilam@cap.au.af.mil; Wed, 04 Oct 1995 12:26:24 -0500 (CDT) Received: from relay3.UU.NET by VAXA.CIS.UWOSH.EDU (PMDF V5.0-3 #11864) id <01HW1J81O95S002ENB@VAXA.CIS.UWOSH.EDU> for MILAMC@VAXA.CIS.UWOSH.EDU; Wed, 04 Oct 1995 12:26:08 -0500 (CDT) Received: from miles.greatcircle.com by relay3.UU.NET with ESMTP id QQzkaf11311; Wed, 04 Oct 1995 13:24:41 -0400 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id KAA18738 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 04 Oct 1995 10:02:20 -0700 Received: from mail04.mail.aol.com (mail04.mail.aol.com [152.163.172.53]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with ESMTP id KAA18723 for ; Wed, 04 Oct 1995 10:02:16 -0700 Received: by mail04.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id NAA16245; Wed, 04 Oct 1995 13:00:13 -0400 Date: Wed, 04 Oct 1995 13:00:13 -0400 From: PMDAtropos@aol.com Subject: Re: Your "Harleys" digest & reflector Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Resent-to: cmilam@cap.au.af.mil To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Cc: mleger@panix.com Resent-message-id: <01HW1J94OEXW002PCG@VAXA.CIS.UWOSH.EDU> Message-id: <951004130012_116042444@mail04.mail.aol.com> X-VMS-To: IN%"list-managers@greatcircle.com" X-VMS-Cc: IN%"mleger@panix.com" Precedence: bulk In a message dated 95-10-04 07:03:13 EDT, harley-request@Thinkage.On.CA (Ken Dykes - Immoderator) writes: >other list managers must be getting this type of message, so i'll share >my humble opinion/approach to the matter: I've gotten requests for most of my lists. I was initially concerned, but Mark's prompt, polite and professional responses to my mail were reassuring. I've seen other paper publications which had grossly-outdated information (for example, listing my MTU or Brown University *BITNET* addresses), and which never bothered to contact me. I'm pretty pleased with Mark's efforts, and I have no problem with gaining new subscribers. My two centimes. --David O'Donnell From list-managers-owner Thu Oct 5 10:23:06 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id KAA29584 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 5 Oct 1995 10:05:03 -0700 Received: from mailer.scri.fsu.edu (mailer.scri.fsu.edu [144.174.128.110]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with ESMTP id KAA29577 for ; Thu, 5 Oct 1995 10:04:55 -0700 Received: from dirac.scri.fsu.edu (dirac.scri.fsu.edu [144.174.128.44]) by mailer.scri.fsu.edu (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id NAA18118 for ; Thu, 5 Oct 1995 13:03:54 -0400 From: Ashley Duke Received: by dirac.scri.fsu.edu (5.67b) id AA173963; Thu, 5 Oct 1995 13:03:22 -0400 Message-Id: <199510051703.AA173963@dirac.scri.fsu.edu> Subject: PGP and majordomo To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Date: Thu, 5 Oct 1995 13:03:22 -0500 (EDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL21] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 137 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Excuse my ignorance, but can anyone tell me if PGP has been incorporated into a new version of Majordomo? If so, has it been released? From list-managers-owner Thu Oct 5 10:53:41 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id KAA00784 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 5 Oct 1995 10:36:03 -0700 Received: from spaatz.cap.af.mil ([132.60.58.245]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with ESMTP id KAA00759 for ; Thu, 5 Oct 1995 10:35:53 -0700 Received: from Microsoft Mail (PU Serial #0) by spaatz.cap.af.mil (PostalUnion/SMTP(tm) v2.1.7 for Windows NT(tm)) id AA-1995Oct05.114208.0.13174; Thu, 05 Oct 1995 12:34:37 -0500 From: PMDAtropos@aol.com (PMDAtroposaol.com) To: cmilam@cap.au.af.mil (cmilam), list-managers@greatcircle.com (list-managers) Cc: mleger@panix.com (mleger) Message-ID: <1995Oct05.114208.0.13174@spaatz.cap.af.mil> X-Mailer: Microsoft Mail via PostalUnion/SMTP for Windows NT Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Organization: Civil Air Patrol National Headquarters Date: Thu, 05 Oct 1995 12:34:37 -0500 Subject: Re: Your "Harleys" digest & reflector Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Cc: mleger@panix.com (mleger) Message-ID: <1995Oct05.093200.0.12559@cap.au.af.mil> X-Mailer: Microsoft Mail via PostalUnion/SMTP for Windows NT Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Organization: Civil Air Patrol National Headquarters Date: Thu, 05 Oct 1995 11:00:53 -0500 Subject: Re: Your "Harleys" digest & reflector Received: from cap.au.af.mil by cap.au.af.mil (PostalUnion/SMTP(tm) v2.1.7 for Windows NT(tm)) id AA-1995Oct05.092749.0.8936; Thu, 05 Oct 1995 09:27:49 -0500 Received: from Microsoft Mail (PU Serial #0) by cap.au.af.mil (PostalUnion/SMTP(tm) v2.1.7 for Windows NT(tm)) id AA-1995Oct05.084632.0.12093; Thu, 05 Oct 1995 09:27:49 -0500 From: PMDAtropos@aol.com (PMDAtroposaol.com) To: cmilam@cap.au.af.mil (cmilam), list-managers@greatcircle.com (list-managers) Cc: mleger@panix.com (mleger) Message-ID: <1995Oct05.084632.0.12093@cap.au.af.mil> X-Mailer: Microsoft Mail via PostalUnion/SMTP for Windows NT Organization: Civil Air Patrol National Headquarters Date: Thu, 05 Oct 1995 09:27:49 -0500 Subject: Re: Your "Harleys" digest & reflector Received: from cap.au.af.mil by cap.au.af.mil (PostalUnion/SMTP(tm) v2.1.7 for Windows NT(tm)) id AA-1995Oct05.084103.0.8892; Thu, 05 Oct 1995 08:41:04 -0500 Received: from Microsoft Mail (PU Serial #0) by cap.au.af.mil (PostalUnion/SMTP(tm) v2.1.7 for Windows NT(tm)) id AA-1995Oct05.081235.0.12008; Thu, 05 Oct 1995 08:41:04 -0500 From: PMDAtropos@aol.com (PMDAtroposaol.com) To: cmilam@cap.au.af.mil (cmilam), list-managers@greatcircle.com (list-managers) Cc: mleger@panix.com (mleger) Message-ID: <1995Oct05.081235.0.12008@cap.au.af.mil> X-Mailer: Microsoft Mail via PostalUnion/SMTP for Windows NT Organization: Civil Air Patrol National Headquarters Date: Thu, 05 Oct 1995 08:41:04 -0500 Subject: Re: Your "Harleys" digest & reflector Received: from cap.au.af.mil by cap.au.af.mil (PostalUnion/SMTP(tm) v2.1.7 for Windows NT(tm)) id AA-1995Oct05.080835.0.8852; Thu, 05 Oct 1995 08:08:35 -0500 Received: from Microsoft Mail (PU Serial #0) by cap.au.af.mil (PostalUnion/SMTP(tm) v2.1.7 for Windows NT(tm)) id AA-1995Oct05.073714.0.11924; Thu, 05 Oct 1995 08:08:36 -0500 From: PMDAtropos@aol.com (PMDAtroposaol.com) To: cmilam@cap.au.af.mil (cmilam), list-managers@greatcircle.com (list-managers) Cc: mleger@panix.com (mleger) Message-ID: <1995Oct05.073714.0.11924@cap.au.af.mil> X-Mailer: Microsoft Mail via PostalUnion/SMTP for Windows NT Organization: Civil Air Patrol National Headquarters Date: Thu, 05 Oct 1995 08:08:36 -0500 Subject: Re: Your "Harleys" digest & reflector Received: from cap.au.af.mil by cap.au.af.mil (PostalUnion/SMTP(tm) v2.1.7 for Windows NT(tm)) id AA-1995Oct05.073411.0.8823; Thu, 05 Oct 1995 07:34:11 -0500 Received: from Microsoft Mail (PU Serial #0) by cap.au.af.mil (PostalUnion/SMTP(tm) v2.1.7 for Windows NT(tm)) id AA-1995Oct04.124654.0.11865; Thu, 05 Oct 1995 07:34:11 -0500 From: PMDAtropos@aol.com (PMDAtroposaol.com) To: cmilam@cap.au.af.mil (cmilam), list-managers@greatcircle.com (list-managers) Cc: mleger@panix.com (mleger) Message-ID: <1995Oct04.124654.0.11865@cap.au.af.mil> X-Mailer: Microsoft Mail via PostalUnion/SMTP for Windows NT Organization: Civil Air Patrol National Headquarters Date: Thu, 05 Oct 1995 07:34:11 -0500 Subject: Re: Your "Harleys" digest & reflector Received: from spaatz.cap.af.mil by spaatz.cap.af.mil (PostalUnion/SMTP(tm) v2.1.7 for Windows NT(tm)) id AA-1995Oct04.124218.0.8741; Wed, 04 Oct 1995 12:42:18 -0500 Received: from Microsoft Mail (PU Serial #0) by spaatz.cap.af.mil (PostalUnion/SMTP(tm) v2.1.7 for Windows NT(tm)) id AA-1995Oct04.122856.0.11737; Wed, 04 Oct 1995 12:42:19 -0500 From: PMDAtropos@aol.com (PMDAtroposaol.com) To: cmilam@cap.au.af.mil , list-managers@greatcircle.com (list-managers) Cc: mleger@panix.com (mleger) Message-ID: <1995Oct04.122856.0.11737@spaatz.cap.af.mil> X-Mailer: Microsoft Mail via PostalUnion/SMTP for Windows NT Organization: Civil Air Patrol National Headquarters Date: Wed, 04 Oct 1995 12:42:19 -0500 Subject: Re: Your "Harleys" digest & reflector Received: from VAXA.CIS.UWOSH.EDU by spaatz.cap.af.mil (PostalUnion/SMTP(tm) v2.1.7 for Windows NT(tm)) id AA-1995Oct04.122643.0.8667; Wed, 04 Oct 1995 12:26:55 -0500 Received: from VAXA.CIS.UWOSH.EDU by VAXA.CIS.UWOSH.EDU (PMDF V5.0-3 #11864) id <01HW1J94JUYQ002PCG@VAXA.CIS.UWOSH.EDU> for cmilam@cap.au.af.mil; Wed, 04 Oct 1995 12:26:24 -0500 (CDT) Received: from relay3.UU.NET by VAXA.CIS.UWOSH.EDU (PMDF V5.0-3 #11864) id <01HW1J81O95S002ENB@VAXA.CIS.UWOSH.EDU> for MILAMC@VAXA.CIS.UWOSH.EDU; Wed, 04 Oct 1995 12:26:08 -0500 (CDT) Received: from miles.greatcircle.com by relay3.UU.NET with ESMTP id QQzkaf11311; Wed, 04 Oct 1995 13:24:41 -0400 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id KAA18738 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 04 Oct 1995 10:02:20 -0700 Received: from mail04.mail.aol.com (mail04.mail.aol.com [152.163.172.53]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with ESMTP id KAA18723 for ; Wed, 04 Oct 1995 10:02:16 -0700 Received: by mail04.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id NAA16245; Wed, 04 Oct 1995 13:00:13 -0400 Date: Wed, 04 Oct 1995 13:00:13 -0400 From: PMDAtropos@aol.com Subject: Re: Your "Harleys" digest & reflector Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Resent-to: cmilam@cap.au.af.mil To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Cc: mleger@panix.com Resent-message-id: <01HW1J94OEXW002PCG@VAXA.CIS.UWOSH.EDU> Message-id: <951004130012_116042444@mail04.mail.aol.com> X-VMS-To: IN%"list-managers@greatcircle.com" X-VMS-Cc: IN%"mleger@panix.com" Precedence: bulk In a message dated 95-10-04 07:03:13 EDT, harley-request@Thinkage.On.CA (Ken Dykes - Immoderator) writes: >other list managers must be getting this type of message, so i'll share >my humble opinion/approach to the matter: I've gotten requests for most of my lists. I was initially concerned, but Mark's prompt, polite and professional responses to my mail were reassuring. I've seen other paper publications which had grossly-outdated information (for example, listing my MTU or Brown University *BITNET* addresses), and which never bothered to contact me. I'm pretty pleased with Mark's efforts, and I have no problem with gaining new subscribers. My two centimes. --David O'Donnell From list-managers-owner Thu Oct 5 11:00:18 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id KAA02024 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 5 Oct 1995 10:56:05 -0700 Received: from leibniz.math.psu.edu (leibniz.math.psu.edu [146.186.130.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with ESMTP id KAA02003 for ; Thu, 5 Oct 1995 10:55:56 -0700 Received: from augusta.math.psu.edu (barr@augusta.math.psu.edu [146.186.132.2]) by leibniz.math.psu.edu (8.6.12/8.6.9) with ESMTP id NAA26666; Thu, 5 Oct 1995 13:54:10 -0400 Received: from localhost (barr@localhost) by augusta.math.psu.edu (8.6.12/8.6.9) with ESMTP id NAA15564; Thu, 5 Oct 1995 13:54:09 -0400 Message-Id: <199510051754.NAA15564@augusta.math.psu.edu> X-Mailer: exmh version 1.6.2 7/18/95 To: Ashley Duke cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: PGP and majordomo In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 05 Oct 1995 13:03:22 CDT." <199510051703.AA173963@dirac.scri.fsu.edu> References: <199510051703.AA173963@dirac.scri.fsu.edu> X-Face: $+9-wYg.[->94HJ{go[7Q]E!K&hUg7ZhLyCMyq_FU*ca0GazE>^/2BKLcK0bP-'%;Nn?M+am,jlSP>1K$iz@ %'v'FEW{@](U&Ed/}>ju3Ctlr!XwJ27Q)7h2a%"`sz;j:/3EC[mXi@*X@HE1]'ddq$ZX"ePsMyTkeg >zdML.SVvX1W`adGIUD Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Thu, 05 Oct 1995 13:54:08 -0400 From: Dave Barr Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk In message <199510051703.AA173963@dirac.scri.fsu.edu>, Ashley Duke writes: >Excuse my ignorance, but can anyone tell me if PGP has been incorporated >into a new version of Majordomo? If so, has it been released? No. This doesn't belong on this list. Please take majordomo discussions to majordomo-users@greatcircle.com (or majordomo-workers@greatcircle.com) --Dave From list-managers-owner Thu Oct 5 12:00:58 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id LAA04279 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 5 Oct 1995 11:46:40 -0700 Received: from netcomsv.netcom.com (uucp9.netcom.com [163.179.3.9]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with ESMTP id LAA04272 for ; Thu, 5 Oct 1995 11:46:36 -0700 Received: by netcomsv.netcom.com with UUCP (8.6.12/SMI-4.1) id LAA13644; Thu, 5 Oct 1995 11:11:44 -0700 Received: from iceman.triad.com by triad.com (5.61/SMI-4.1) id AA27620; Thu, 5 Oct 95 10:21:32 -0700 Received: by iceman.triad.com (5.65/TRSC-4.0) id AA21101; Thu, 5 Oct 95 10:23:09 -0700 Date: Thu, 5 Oct 95 10:23:09 -0700 From: mgg@iceman.triad.com (Mark Galbraith) Message-Id: <9510051723.AA21101@iceman.triad.com> To: bobmhoon@onramp.net, postmaster@onramp.net Cc: postmaster@triad.com, postmaster@marvin.com, postmaster@calypso.com, postmaster@sb.com, list-managers@greatcircle.com In-Reply-To: <9510051630.AB18321@triad.com> (postmaster@triada.triad.com) Subject: Re: Returned mail: User unknown Organization: Triad Systems, Livermore CA X-Phone: +1 510 449 0606 x6513 X-Mailer: Emacs-19.19 X-Attribution: mgg Reply-To: mgg@triad.com Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- To the user 'bobmhoon@onramp.com': I strongly resent the fact that you would even try to find out what lists I maintain. What makes you think that just because I maintain a list, it is there for you to use. KEEP YOUR STINKING HANDS OFF MY MACHINE. I suggest that in the future you send a message to the postmaster at the sites you plan to probe, and *ASK PERMISSION TO USE THE LISTS*. Who knows, if you'd asked nicely I might have given you access to our public lists. As it stands right now, "Suck rocks." To the postmaster@onramp.net: I realize that you have no direct control over your customers' actions. Please research this and give the customer involved an education on net-etiquette. It might save you some trouble in the future. To the other postmasters affected: Please send your own complaint to the user/postmasters. I've already covered the list-managers list, so you don't need to send more complaints there. This type of intrusion on our privacy must be stopped. To the readers of list-managers: Here's a warning to the rest of you that this type of probe is happening. If you have the ability to take steps to protect your site's privacy, now is the time for action. - -- Mark Galbraith Senior UNIX Engineer/Postmaster PGP Key (E3468605) = 1C B9 74 81 AD 5C 57 09 69 0B AC 09 7F 65 D6 F6 "Those that give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -- Benjamin Franklin (1773) >>>>> "Mail" == Mail Delivery Subsystem writes: Mail> ----- Transcript of session follows ----- Mail> 550 majordomo@triad.com... User unknown Mail> ----- Unsent message follows ----- Mail> Return-Path: Mail> Received: by triad.com (5.61/SMI-4.1) Mail> id AA18321; Thu, 5 Oct 95 09:30:06 -0700 Mail> Received: from mailhost.onramp.net by netcomsv.netcom.com with ESMTP (8.6.12/SMI-4.1) Mail> id NAA09429; Wed, 4 Oct 1995 13:04:54 -0700 Mail> Received: from bobmhoon (dal29.onramp.net [199.1.11.129]) by mailhost.onramp.net (8.6.12/8.6.5) with SMTP id PAA26261; Wed, 4 Oct 1995 15:03:20 -0500 Mail> Message-Id: <199510042003.PAA26261@mailhost.onramp.net> Mail> X-Sender: bobmhoon@onramp.net Mail> X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.1.2 Mail> Mime-Version: 1.0 Mail> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Mail> Date: Sat, 03 Jun 1995 14:47:25 -0500 Mail> To: majordomo@marvin.com, majordomo@calypso.com, majordomo@triad.com, Mail> majordomo@sb.com Mail> From: Dunhill Technology Search Mail> Subject: Mail> lists -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 iQCVAwUBMHQUZCGorEbjRoYFAQF/SwP/Ydw7iaBpcBpv0BtAsXDaSo2GaRWzxbE3 /LKMLeUM5LQ12LYNcy9+pjgJLrFIeCp8lPm+jVZbV62UfDUjkYYz+Tbagxux2q1J nlpJGHum5JEa33LXbrXqZXkMphfzKxyRGPVB3N65PcN+SgOP1vAcYIwUWnG1g3Id LJM3GQGZgsc= =QrQB -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From list-managers-owner Thu Oct 5 12:30:43 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id MAA05605 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 5 Oct 1995 12:29:00 -0700 Received: from mongo.pixar.com (mongo.pixar.com [138.72.50.60]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with SMTP id MAA05598 for ; Thu, 5 Oct 1995 12:28:55 -0700 Received: by mongo.pixar.com (Smail3.1.28.1 #15) id m0t0vx0-0008DwC; Thu, 5 Oct 95 12:27 PDT Message-Id: X-Mailer: exmh version 1.6.2 7/18/95 To: mgg@triad.com cc: bobmhoon@onramp.net, postmaster@onramp.net, postmaster@triad.com, postmaster@marvin.com, postmaster@calypso.com, postmaster@sb.com, list-managers@greatcircle.com, bruce@Pixar.com Subject: Re: Returned mail: User unknown In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 05 Oct 1995 10:23:09 PDT." <9510051723.AA21101@iceman.triad.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Thu, 05 Oct 1995 12:27:17 -0700 From: Bruce Perens Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Mark, Your message is so unlike what I'd expect from a list manager that I'm not sure if your message is a forgery or not. I operate a number of lists at Pixar, one of them with 600 subscribers. The "lists" command is a public, documented feature of the list server that is meant to tell users just the information you are objecting to here. To reiterate, there is absolutely nothing wrong with what this user was doing. Maybe you're just having a bad day or something? Bruce mgg@iceman.triad.com said: > From: mgg@iceman.triad.com (Mark Galbraith) To: bobmhoon@onramp.net, > postmaster@onramp.net Cc: postmaster@triad.com, postmaster@marvin.com, > postmaster@calypso.com, postmaster@sb.com, > list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: Returned mail: User > unknown Organization: Triad Systems, Livermore CA X-phone: +1 510 449 > 0606 x6513 X-attribution: mgg > (text/plain) the signature hasn't been checked > To the user 'bobmhoon@onramp.com': > I strongly resent the fact that you would even try to find out what > lists I maintain. What makes you think that just because I maintain > a list, it is there for you to use. KEEP YOUR STINKING HANDS OFF MY > MACHINE. > I suggest that in the future you send a message to the postmaster at > the sites you plan to probe, and *ASK PERMISSION TO USE THE LISTS*. > Who knows, if you'd asked nicely I might have given you access to our > public lists. As it stands right now, "Suck rocks." > To the postmaster@onramp.net: > I realize that you have no direct control over your customers' > actions. Please research this and give the customer involved an > education on net-etiquette. It might save you some trouble in the > future. > To the other postmasters affected: > Please send your own complaint to the user/postmasters. I've already > covered the list-managers list, so you don't need to send more > complaints there. This type of intrusion on our privacy must be > stopped. > To the readers of list-managers: > Here's a warning to the rest of you that this type of probe is > happening. If you have the ability to take steps to protect your > site's privacy, now is the time for action. > -- Mark Galbraith Senior UNIX Engineer/ > Postmaster PGP Key (E3468605) = 1C B9 74 81 AD 5C 57 09 69 0B AC > 09 7F 65 D6 F6 "Those that give up essential liberty to obtain a > little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -- > Benjamin Franklin (1773) > >>>>> "Mail" == Mail Delivery Subsystem > writes: > Mail> ----- Transcript of session follows ----- Mail> 550 > majordomo@triad.com... User unknown > Mail> ----- Unsent message follows ----- Mail> Return-Path: > Mail> Received: by triad.com (5.61/SMI-4.1) > Mail> id AA18321; Thu, 5 Oct 95 09:30:06 -0700 Mail> Received: from > mailhost.onramp.net by netcomsv.netcom.com with ESMTP (8.6.12/ > SMI-4.1) Mail> id NAA09429; Wed, 4 Oct 1995 13:04:54 -0700 Mail> > Received: from bobmhoon (dal29.onramp.net [199.1.11.129]) by > mailhost.onramp.net (8.6.12/8.6.5) with SMTP id PAA26261; Wed, 4 Oct > 1995 15:03:20 -0500 Mail> Message-Id: <199510042003.PAA26261@mailhost. > onramp.net> Mail> X-Sender: bobmhoon@onramp.net Mail> X-Mailer: > Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.1.2 Mail> Mime-Version: 1.0 Mail> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Mail> Date: Sat, 03 Jun > 1995 14:47:25 -0500 Mail> To: majordomo@marvin.com, > majordomo@calypso.com, majordomo@triad.com, Mail> > majordomo@sb.com Mail> From: Dunhill Technology Search > Mail> Subject: > Mail> lists -- -- Attention Radio Amateurs: For information on "Linux for Hams", -- read the WWW page http://www.hams.com/LinuxForHams, -- or e-mail the word "help" to info@hams.com From list-managers-owner Thu Oct 5 13:01:25 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id MAA06056 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 5 Oct 1995 12:35:10 -0700 Received: from taz.hyperreal.com (taz.hyperreal.com [204.62.129.130]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with ESMTP id MAA06044 for ; Thu, 5 Oct 1995 12:35:07 -0700 Received: by taz.hyperreal.com (8.6.12/8.6.5) id MAA17603; Thu, 5 Oct 1995 12:33:33 -0700 Date: Thu, 5 Oct 1995 12:33:32 -0700 (PDT) From: Brian Behlendorf To: mgg@triad.com cc: bobmhoon@onramp.net, postmaster@onramp.net, postmaster@triad.com, postmaster@marvin.com, postmaster@calypso.com, postmaster@sb.com, list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Returned mail: User unknown In-Reply-To: <9510051723.AA21101@iceman.triad.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Thu, 5 Oct 1995, Mark Galbraith wrote: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > > To the user 'bobmhoon@onramp.com': > > I strongly resent the fact that you would even try to find out what > lists I maintain. Um, then I suggest you turn off the "lists" command if you don't want people to use it. Brian From list-managers-owner Thu Oct 5 13:02:37 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id MAA07574 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 5 Oct 1995 12:54:56 -0700 Received: from FSM-1.PICA.ARMY.MIL (fsm-1.pica.army.mil [129.139.164.101]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with SMTP id MAA07564 for ; Thu, 5 Oct 1995 12:54:52 -0700 Date: Thu, 5 Oct 95 15:55:01 EDT From: Info-LabVIEW List Maintainer To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: Returned mail: User unknown Organization: Electric Armts Div, US Army ARDEC, Picatinny Arsenal, NJ Message-ID: <9510051555.aa05373@fsm-1.pica.army.mil> Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >To the user 'bobmhoon@onramp.com': > >I strongly resent the fact that you would even try to find out what >lists I maintain. What makes you think that just because I maintain a >list, it is there for you to use. KEEP YOUR STINKING HANDS OFF MY >MACHINE. > >I suggest that in the future you send a message to the postmaster at the >sites you plan to probe, and *ASK PERMISSION TO USE THE LISTS*. Who >knows, if you'd asked nicely I might have given you access to our public >lists. As it stands right now, "Suck rocks." > >To the readers of list-managers: > >Here's a warning to the rest of you that this type of probe is >happening. If you have the ability to take steps to protect your site's >privacy, now is the time for action. Beg pardon? Just what on earth has caused you to (publically) exhibit such hostility? Tom Coradeschi, Info-LabVIEW List Maintainer http://k-whiner.pica.army.mil/info-labview/info-labview.html From list-managers-owner Thu Oct 5 13:31:04 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id NAA09706 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 5 Oct 1995 13:26:08 -0700 Received: from mongo.pixar.com (mongo.pixar.com [138.72.50.60]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with SMTP id NAA09699 for ; Thu, 5 Oct 1995 13:26:05 -0700 Received: by mongo.pixar.com (Smail3.1.28.1 #15) id m0t0wqO-000604C; Thu, 5 Oct 95 13:24 PDT Message-Id: X-Mailer: exmh version 1.6.2 7/18/95 To: Info-LabVIEW List Maintainer cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com, bruce@Pixar.com Subject: Re: Returned mail: User unknown In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 05 Oct 1995 15:55:01 PDT." <9510051555.aa05373@fsm-1.pica.army.mil> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Thu, 05 Oct 1995 13:24:40 -0700 From: Bruce Perens Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I haven't heard back from Mark, but I'd guess he's afraid that the "lists" request is the prelude to a spam. Bruce -- -- Attention Radio Amateurs: For information on "Linux for Hams", -- read the WWW page http://www.hams.com/LinuxForHams, -- or e-mail the word "help" to info@hams.com From list-managers-owner Fri Oct 6 06:30:22 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id GAA28735 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 6 Oct 1995 06:24:14 -0700 Received: from netcomsv.netcom.com (uucp13.netcom.com [163.179.3.13]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with ESMTP id GAA28728 for ; Fri, 6 Oct 1995 06:24:11 -0700 Received: by netcomsv.netcom.com with UUCP (8.6.12/SMI-4.1) id GAA19341; Fri, 6 Oct 1995 06:18:10 -0700 Received: from iceman.triad.com by triad.com (5.61/SMI-4.1) id AA01115; Thu, 5 Oct 95 23:03:17 -0700 Received: by iceman.triad.com (5.65/TRSC-4.0) id AA23758; Thu, 5 Oct 95 23:04:56 -0700 Date: Thu, 5 Oct 95 23:04:56 -0700 From: mgg@iceman.triad.com (Mark Galbraith) Message-Id: <9510060604.AA23758@iceman.triad.com> To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Further clarification Organization: Triad Systems, Livermore CA X-Phone: +1 510 449 0606 x6513 X-Mailer: Emacs-19.19 X-Attribution: mgg Reply-To: mgg@triad.com Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk As a knee-jerk reaction this morning I sent out a mail which was sharply critical of someone probing my site for mailing lists. I have receive several replies to that mail, including an appology from the user who did the probe. The rest of the replies ranged from "Why don't you turn off 'lists'?" to "What he did was valid." There were a few that correctly identified one of my concerns: E-Mail SPAM. I realize that my earlier comments were probably not received in the best light, and, by many of you, were not received in the way they were intended. They were intended as a warning. Most of you (at least the ones that bothered to reply) didn't see it this way, but rather chose to deride me for reporting what I felt was an attempted breach of my privacy and the security of my network. I stand by my original intent. There may be others out there who are concerned about this rude behavior of going after information without asking whether or not it's okay to do so. As stated in my previous message, if the sender had asked ahead of time, I might have even given the information to him directly. It's just a matter of good manners and common decency. You just don't take something that doesn't belong to you without asking permission first. I don't allow my 5-year-old niece to do it, and I'm sure not going to tolerate it from an adult. You may not agree with this, but that's your right. I may not agree with you, but that's my right. "Ain't America great?" -- Mark Galbraith Senior UNIX Engineer/Postmaster PGP Key (E3468605) = 1C B9 74 81 AD 5C 57 09 69 0B AC 09 7F 65 D6 F6 "Those that give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -- Benjamin Franklin (1773) From list-managers-owner Fri Oct 6 19:30:04 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id TAA19566 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 6 Oct 1995 19:21:01 -0700 Received: from relay4.UU.NET (relay4.UU.NET [192.48.96.14]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with ESMTP id TAA19558 for ; Fri, 6 Oct 1995 19:20:57 -0700 Received: from postmodern.com by relay4.UU.NET with SMTP id QQzkiz27648; Fri, 6 Oct 1995 22:20:02 -0400 Received: by postmodern.com (5.0/SMI-SVR4/950522-mcb1) id AA01213; Fri, 6 Oct 95 19:15:11 PDT Message-Id: <9510070215.AA01213@postmodern.com> From: mcb@postmodern.com (Michael C. Berch) Date: Fri, 6 Oct 1995 19:15:11 -0700 In-Reply-To: <9510060604.AA23758@iceman.triad.com> X-Mailer: Mail User's Shell (7.2.5 10/14/92) To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: Further clarification content-length: 2425 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Mark Galbraith writes: > I realize that my earlier comments were probably not received in the > best light, and, by many of you, were not received in the way they were > intended. They were intended as a warning. Err... I'm not exactly sure what we were being warned against. > I stand by my original intent. There may be others out there who are > concerned about this rude behavior of going after information without > asking whether or not it's okay to do so. Hmmm. I'm not sure what makes you think of this a "rude behavior" -- any more than connecting to someone's WWW server or verifying an address with SMTP VRFY. Perhaps a better analogy would be a finger server. Would you consider finger inquries, or more specifically a finger client attempting to see if you ran a finger daemon, "rude behavior" or a security intrusion? What about a Web robot that travels your WWW pages and indexes them? It's difficult to believe that someone would have the rational expectation of being asked before someone connects to an Internet server and makes a request that is part of the normal operation of the server. Heck, I telnet to sites' SMTP ports and do VRFY and EXPN operations quite regularly in an attempt to debug mailing list problems. Many sites turn this capability off, which they have the perfect right to do > As stated in my previous > message, if the sender had asked ahead of time, I might have even given > the information to him directly. It's just a matter of good manners and > common decency. I think this is a bit much to ask... after all, the software (Majordomo or another program) is supposed to help automate the job for you so you (the list manager) don't have to be bothered by routine requests. (Like "what lists do you host at your site?") > You just don't take something that doesn't belong to you without asking > permission first. I don't allow my 5-year-old niece to do it, and I'm > sure not going to tolerate it from an adult. "Take"?? Information freely supplied by a publicly-accessible server in the normal course of its operation (*not* a loophole or a hack)? It does not surprise me that most people found your response unreasonable. I have managed Internet stes and mailing lists for about 10 years, and would not consider use of my server in this manner slightly odd, much less objectionable. -- Michael C. Berch mcb@postmodern.com / mcb@greatcircle.com From list-managers-owner Fri Oct 6 20:30:18 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id UAA20194 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 6 Oct 1995 20:08:27 -0700 Received: from janet.advsys.com (xcrsnyder.ge_xc.dialup.net [158.254.10.56]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with ESMTP id UAA20186 for ; Fri, 6 Oct 1995 20:08:20 -0700 Received: from janet.advsys.com (rsnyder@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by janet.advsys.com (8.7/8.7) with ESMTP id XAA09320 for ; Fri, 6 Oct 1995 23:08:56 -0400 Message-Id: <199510070308.XAA09320@janet.advsys.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 1.6.2 7/18/95 To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Further clarification In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 05 Oct 1995 23:04:56 PDT." <9510060604.AA23758@iceman.triad.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Fri, 06 Oct 1995 23:08:52 -0400 From: Bob Snyder Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk mgg@iceman.triad.com said: > I stand by my original intent. There may be others out there who are > concerned about this rude behavior of going after information without > asking whether or not it's okay to do so. As stated in my previous > message, if the sender had asked ahead of time, I might have even > given the information to him directly. It's just a matter of good > manners and common decency. > You just don't take something that doesn't belong to you without > asking permission first. I don't allow my 5-year-old niece to do it, > and I'm sure not going to tolerate it from an adult. Errrr, so everyone who wants to send your majordomo a "lists" command needs to ask you first? And how exactly are they suppose to divine your wishes? They didn't take it without your permission. You put up a server that is configured to provide exactly that information, on request, to anyone who asks. It's like setting up a store, and getting upset if people don't knock before entering. Bob From list-managers-owner Sat Oct 7 20:30:03 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id UAA09348 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 7 Oct 1995 20:27:37 -0700 Received: from netcom.netcom.com (netcom.netcom.com [192.100.81.100]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with ESMTP id UAA09341 for ; Sat, 7 Oct 1995 20:27:34 -0700 Received: by netcom.netcom.com (8.6.12/Netcom) id UAA14769; Sat, 7 Oct 1995 20:05:15 -0700 From: jadestar@netcom.com (JaDe) Message-Id: <199510080305.UAA14769@netcom.netcom.com> Subject: Re: Further clarification To: rsnyder@janet.advsys.com (Bob Snyder) Date: Sat, 7 Oct 1995 20:05:14 -0700 (PDT) Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: <199510070308.XAA09320@janet.advsys.com> from "Bob Snyder" at Oct 6, 95 11:08:52 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 1559 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > > mgg@iceman.triad.com said: > > I stand by my original intent. There may be others out there who are > > concerned about this rude behavior of going after information without > > asking whether or not it's okay to do so. As stated in my previous > > message, if the sender had asked ahead of time, I might have even > > given the information to him directly. It's just a matter of good > > manners and common decency. > > > You just don't take something that doesn't belong to you without > > asking permission first. I don't allow my 5-year-old niece to do it, > > and I'm sure not going to tolerate it from an adult. > > Errrr, so everyone who wants to send your majordomo a "lists" command > needs to > ask you first? And how exactly are they suppose to divine your wishes? > > They didn't take it without your permission. You put up a server that is > configured to provide exactly that information, on request, to anyone > who asks. I have to agree. If you don't want the lists command enabled than disable it. Better yet, replace it with one that simply does an auto-response that explains what you want of people who want to know what lists you carry. I'm only barely starting to use Majordomo but I can't imagine that it would be very difficult to replace or modify the one PERL script. I'd highly recommend that any discussion of that be migrated to the appropriate majordomo list (I'd have to issue a lists command to greatcircle to figure out what that might be -- or clutter this list asking for it). From list-managers-owner Sat Oct 7 23:30:20 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id XAA10980 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 7 Oct 1995 23:06:49 -0700 Received: from huey.cadvision.com (huey.cadvision.com [204.50.1.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with SMTP id XAA10973; Sat, 7 Oct 1995 23:06:40 -0700 From: law@cadvision.com Received: from cadb170.cadvision.com by huey.cadvision.com (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.04.tri.dcx) id AA23314; Sun, 8 Oct 1995 00:00:45 -0600 Date: Sat, 7 Oct 95 23:56:38 mdt Subject: Usenet Gateway & Mailbot Application To: list-managers@greatcircle.com, majordomo-users@greatcircle.com X-Mailer: Chameleon - TCP/IP for Windows by NetManage, Inc. Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Dear Readership: The following request has been cross posted to majordomo-users and list-managers. The writer would value your thoughts or suggestions on how to accomplish the following: 1) Setup up majordomo as a newsgroup gateway such that all postings to a particular usenet newsgroup are redistributed to a particular mailing list managed by majordomo, 2) Enable members of a particular mailing list to have their postings to that list forwarded to a specific usenet newsgroup, 3) And, establish majordomo as a mailbot such that - for example - all mail to the address info@hostname.com is automatically sent a standard reply. Responses even offered as pointing in the right direction would also be most welcome. Thank you for your consideration. Sincerely, Graham Law From list-managers-owner Sun Oct 8 00:00:02 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id XAA11263 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 7 Oct 1995 23:53:08 -0700 Received: from SACWMS.MP.USBR.GOV (sacwms.mp.usbr.gov [140.214.12.9]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with SMTP id XAA11256 for ; Sat, 7 Oct 1995 23:53:05 -0700 Received: by sacto.mp.usbr.gov (MX V4.1 VAX) id 14; Sat, 07 Oct 1995 23:51:43 PDT Date: Sat, 07 Oct 1995 23:51:35 PDT From: "Henry W. Miller" To: list-managers@greatcircle.com CC: henrym@sacto.mp.usbr.gov Message-ID: <00997898.4C9E33A0.14@sacto.mp.usbr.gov> Subject: Hit List Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Has anyone compiled a "hit list" of bad mail hosts, i.e., frequently down, overloaded to the point of refusing connections, insufficient MX backup hosts, insufficient DNS hosts, insufficient resources to reasonably handle messages, etc? Maybe if a "Hall of Shame" was compiled and listed, it might induce the managers of those sites to get their acts together??? -HWM From list-managers-owner Sun Oct 8 00:00:20 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id XAA11253 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 7 Oct 1995 23:49:05 -0700 Received: from sacusr.mp.usbr.gov (sacusr.mp.usbr.gov [140.214.12.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with SMTP id XAA11246 for ; Sat, 7 Oct 1995 23:49:02 -0700 Received: by sacto.mp.usbr.gov (MX V4.1 VAX) id 3; Sat, 07 Oct 1995 23:47:42 PDT Date: Sat, 07 Oct 1995 23:47:34 PDT From: "Henry W. Miller" To: list-managers@greatcircle.com CC: henrym@sacto.mp.usbr.gov Message-ID: <00997897.BD022210.3@sacto.mp.usbr.gov> Subject: Full mailboxes Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I know that postmaster of AOL monitors this list; I'm not sure about CIS, though. I run several lists, and frequently get messages bounced back from AOL and CIS stating that the user's mailbox is full and to try again later. Why? It occurs to me that both providers have gigabytes, maybe terabytes of disk storage. To bounce mail back to the sender is really uncalled for. Surely there has to be a better way to deal with this. -HWM From list-managers-owner Sun Oct 8 08:02:20 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id HAA15797 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 8 Oct 1995 07:46:23 -0700 Received: from sgi.sgi.com (SGI.COM [192.48.153.1]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with ESMTP id HAA15790 for ; Sun, 8 Oct 1995 07:46:21 -0700 Received: from lunch.engr.sgi.com by sgi.sgi.com via ESMTP (950405.SGI.8.6.12/910110.SGI) id HAA05639; Sun, 8 Oct 1995 07:42:45 -0700 Received: by lunch.engr.sgi.com (950511.SGI.8.6.12.PATCH526/940406.SGI.AUTO) id HAA01377; Sun, 8 Oct 1995 07:42:44 -0700 From: close@lunch.engr.sgi.com (Diane Barlow Close) Message-Id: <199510081442.HAA01377@lunch.engr.sgi.com> Subject: Re: Full mailboxes To: henrym@sacto.mp.usbr.gov (Henry W. Miller) Date: Sun, 8 Oct 1995 07:42:43 -0700 (PDT) Cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com In-Reply-To: <00997897.BD022210.3@sacto.mp.usbr.gov> from "Henry W. Miller" at Oct 07, 1995 11:47:34 PM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL0a8] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Henry W. Miller wrote: > ...I run several lists, and frequently get > messages bounced back from AOL and CIS stating that the user's > mailbox is full and to try again later. ... > To bounce mail back to the sender is really uncalled for. Surely there > has to be a better way to deal with this. I agree and certainly hope (wish? :-) there's a better way to deal with this than what's done currently. I've have several members who regularly sign on only once every couple weeks only to find themselves on "bounces", again, because their mail has been bouncing back to me as undeliverable due to "mailbox too full" for a week. I've gotten very tired of my admin mailbox filling up (and, ironically those seem to be the fastest, most efficient and regularly delivered of AOL's bounces). Now that I've finally set up my new procmail filtering system, I may just end up sending all those types of messages to /dev/null so that neither I nor my "lazy" list members are inconvenienced. :-) -- Diane Close close@lunch.engr.sgi.com I'm at lunch all day. :-) From list-managers-owner Sun Oct 8 23:00:10 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id WAA02610 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 8 Oct 1995 22:58:14 -0700 Received: from relay4.UU.NET (relay4.UU.NET [192.48.96.14]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with ESMTP id WAA02603 for ; Sun, 8 Oct 1995 22:58:11 -0700 Received: from postmodern.com by relay4.UU.NET with SMTP id QQzkqx23290; Mon, 9 Oct 1995 01:56:50 -0400 Received: by postmodern.com (5.0/SMI-SVR4/950522-mcb1) id AA03866; Sun, 8 Oct 95 22:52:21 PDT Message-Id: <9510090552.AA03866@postmodern.com> From: mcb@postmodern.com (Michael C. Berch) Date: Sun, 8 Oct 1995 22:52:20 -0700 In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Mail User's Shell (7.2.5 10/14/92) To: law@cadvision.com Subject: Re: Usenet Gateway & Mailbot Application Cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com content-length: 328 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > Dear Readership: > > The following request has been cross posted to majordomo-users and > list-managers. Please *do not* post Majordomo-specific questions to list-managers. They should only be posted to the Majordomo lists. Thanks, -- Michael C. Berch list-managers list manager mcb@postmodern.com / mcb@greatcircle.com From list-managers-owner Mon Oct 9 02:00:26 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id BAA05688 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 9 Oct 1995 01:42:56 -0700 Received: from vinkku.hut.fi (vinkku.hut.fi [130.233.245.1]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with ESMTP id BAA05681 for ; Mon, 9 Oct 1995 01:42:52 -0700 Received: from lk-hp-11.hut.fi (lk-hp-11.hut.fi [130.233.245.36]) by vinkku.hut.fi (8.6.12/8.6.7) with ESMTP id KAA12607 for ; Mon, 9 Oct 1995 10:41:33 +0200 Received: (zarr@localhost) by lk-hp-11.hut.fi (8.6.12/8.6.7) id KAA28885; Mon, 9 Oct 1995 10:41:31 +0200 Date: Mon, 9 Oct 1995 10:41:31 +0200 Message-Id: <199510090841.KAA28885@lk-hp-11.hut.fi> From: Mari Sepp{ To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: anon.penet.fi Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I am subscribing to this list because I admin couple of lists myself, but actually this is a good forum for my message. I am the other of the two administrators of anon.penet.fi. From time to time there has been abuse on mailing lists from anon.penet.fi users as well as extra hassle because of anon.penet.fi users. Anon.penet.fi address is not meant to be used with mailing lists. We have restricted mailing to listserv@* addresses at our end and try to think of a way to handle other types of lists as well. Anon.penet.fi is such a small machine, that high traffic lists would kill it. Julf pays for every message that passes through the machine from his own pocket and I volunteer my time, so both of us would appreciate if you would do some customization, if easy, at your end and restrict mails from anon.penet.fi. Special lists where subscribers really would appreciate being anonymous (support, etc.) should contact admin@anon.penet.fi for arrangements. abuse ----- Abuse by anon.penet.fi users should be reported immediately with the full post including headers to abuse@anon.penet.fi. I am really sorry for these abuses, it's a shame that a small group can ruin the name for so many others :-( hassle ------ Anon.penet.fi has a double blind rule. If you send mail to anNUMBER@anon.penet.fi address, you will be anonymized as well. Anon.penet.fi header has the From: address as anNUMBER, so subscription to lists is anNUMBER. Any mail to the mailing list will be send to the anon subscriber anonymized. Anyone that writes to the list will get an anonymous account and this will cause *a lot* of confusion. If you change the subscription from anNUMBER@anon.penet.fi to naNUMBER@anon.penet.fi, the mail will get to the recipient unanonymized. This is the standard message send out to mailing lists with the above trouble: I received the note above even though it probably was not intended for me. I work under names daemon@anon.penet.fi and postmaster@anon.penet.fi among others and most likely this is why this note ended up in my mailbox. All messages from listserver/daemon/postmaster/mailer-daemon/etc addresses are not forwarded as those addresses are potential addresses that might compromise anonymity of an anon.penet.fi user. I suppose you wanted to send the message to an@anon.penet.fi. This is not possible from addresses that contain words such as listserver. Anon.penet.fi's server is not meant for regular large volume traffic and, unfortunately, we have had very bad experiences what listservers (especially bitnet-servers) generally do to the headers and addresses. Mailing lists also sometimes create a large volume of traffic. If you are a listserver: - - - - - - - - - - - - Would you mind blocking anNUMBER@anon.penet.fi requests to your server. We have done the blocking at our end, but some anon users seem to have faked their address and sent a message your way as you see from below. All listserv replies will bounce to admin@anon.penet.fi and will never reach the anon user. If you are a mailing list: - - - - - - - - - - - - - If you are a large volume list, I ask you to unsubscribe the anon user from the list as anon.penet.fi's server is not meant for regular large volumetraffic. I suggest all subscriptions for an@anon.penet.fi will be changed to na@anon.penet.fi. Answering directly to an, will result an anon id and message will be send anonymized to the requester. This will also result all the people, who send articles to the list, to have an id, which is often unasked for... Answering to na will forward message to the anon user without anonymization. If you want to send mail to an an@anon.penet.fi and do not want to reveal or get an anonymous ID, you should mail you e-mail to na@anon.penet.fi. For example: if you want to mail a user with the anonymous ID 60 and you want to do it in non-anonymous format (i.e. so that your real name and address appear at the headers of the mail), then send mail to: "na60@anon.penet.fi" and NOT "an60@anon.penet.fi". #Example: # To: na48@anon.penet.fi # Subject: testing #message body: # blah blah If you have any questions, just ask me. Sorry about the extra hassle :-/ Zarr From list-managers-owner Mon Oct 9 05:00:26 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id EAA10138 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 9 Oct 1995 04:50:28 -0700 Received: from skyhawk.ecc.engr.uky.edu (skyhawk.ecc.engr.uky.edu [128.163.144.19]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with ESMTP id EAA10123 for ; Mon, 9 Oct 1995 04:50:24 -0700 Received: (from morgan@localhost) by skyhawk.ecc.engr.uky.edu (8.6.10/8.6.10) id HAA25993; Mon, 9 Oct 1995 07:48:33 -0400 Date: Mon, 9 Oct 1995 07:48:33 -0400 From: Wes Morgan Message-Id: <199510091148.HAA25993@skyhawk.ecc.engr.uky.edu> To: postmaster@abacus.net, postmaster@ixc.net Subject: Magazine subscription junk mail Cc: abacus@abacus.net, susie@ixc.net Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk [ This message has been sent to: ] [ postmaster@abacus.net, postmaster@ixc.net, ] [ abacus@abacus.net, susie@ixc.net, and ] [ another mailing list. ] The ipsc-managers mailing list is dedicated to discussion of the Intel iPSC parallel supercomputer line. As you might imagine, junk email is not welcome in our discussions. The user abacus@abacus.net dispatched a 1300-line piece of junk mail to the ipsc-managers list this weekend, selling a subscription service on behalf of susie@ixc.net. I find this blatant disregard of common courtesy appalling. Samantha and Susie - please refrain from doing this sort of unwelcome adverti- sing in the future. Postmasters - please provide Samantha and Susie with some assistance in finding the *proper* places for their sales pitches. I recommend the biz.* hierarchy of Usenet and the various "for sale" mailing lists and newsgroups. Take it somewhere else...please? Regards, Wes Morgan >Hi fellow 'netters, > >My name is Samantha Jerrings and I recently started using a magazine >subscription club in the USA that has a FREE 1 yr. magazine subscription >deal with your first paid order- and I have been very pleased with them. >They have over 1,500 different USA titles that they can ship to any country >on a subscription basis. As for computer magazines from the USA, they >more of a selection than I ever knew even existed. They have magazines for >most every area of interest in their list of 1,500 titles. [...deletia...] >Please do not email me as I am just a happy customer and a *busy* student. >I don't have time to even complete my thesis in time, let alone run my >part-time software business! Email them directly at: susie@ixc.net [...deletia...] >ps. please forward a copy of this message to all your friends on the net >who you think might be interested in it! It is a great deal! If you join >and then they join after you, you will earn a free 1 yr. subscription for >each new person you get to join after you join! From list-managers-owner Mon Oct 9 10:30:34 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id KAA16452 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 9 Oct 1995 10:18:13 -0700 Received: from kitsune.swcp.com (swcp.com [198.59.115.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with ESMTP id KAA16445 for ; Mon, 9 Oct 1995 10:18:10 -0700 Received: (from lazlo@localhost) by kitsune.swcp.com (8.6.9/8.6.9) id LAA17047 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Mon, 9 Oct 1995 11:16:51 -0600 From: Lazlo Nibble Message-Id: <199510091716.LAA17047@kitsune.swcp.com> Subject: Rogue Systems To: list-managers@greatcircle.com (lm) Date: Mon, 9 Oct 1995 11:16:50 -0600 (MDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 231 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk If anyone's compiling a list, I'd really love to get a mob with torches and pitchforks over to Demon in the UK, to teach them what the "Precedence: bulk" header means . . . -- ::: Lazlo (lazlo@swcp.com; http://www.swcp.com/lazlo) From list-managers-owner Mon Oct 9 11:00:43 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id KAA16834 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 9 Oct 1995 10:40:38 -0700 Received: from lks.ks.sysnet.com (lks.ks.sysnet.com [192.190.239.1]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with ESMTP id KAA16827 for ; Mon, 9 Oct 1995 10:40:34 -0700 Received: from sysnet.com (anasazi.ks.sysnet.com [192.190.239.31]) by lks.ks.sysnet.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id MAA04825; Mon, 9 Oct 1995 12:35:06 -0500 Message-Id: <199510091735.MAA04825@lks.ks.sysnet.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 1.6.2 7/18/95 To: Lazlo Nibble cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM (lm) Subject: Re: Rogue Systems In-Reply-To: Message from Lazlo Nibble of "Mon, 09 Oct 1995 11:16:50 CDT" References: <199510091716.LAA17047@kitsune.swcp.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Mon, 09 Oct 1995 12:38:38 -0500 From: Fred Terry Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > If anyone's compiling a list, I'd really love to get a mob with torches and > pitchforks over to Demon in the UK, to teach them what the "Precedence: bulk" > header means . . . > > -- > ::: Lazlo (lazlo@swcp.com; http://www.swcp.com/lazlo) I'll join you. I have some tar that I can bring along. pf From list-managers-owner Mon Oct 9 11:01:02 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id LAA17192 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 9 Oct 1995 11:00:16 -0700 Received: from wilma.cs.utk.edu (WILMA.CS.UTK.EDU [128.169.94.141]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with ESMTP id LAA17182 for ; Mon, 9 Oct 1995 11:00:08 -0700 Received: from LOCALHOST by wilma.cs.utk.edu with SMTP (cf v2.11c-UTK) id NAA01128; Mon, 9 Oct 1995 13:58:27 -0400 Message-Id: <199510091758.NAA01128@wilma.cs.utk.edu> X-URI: http://www.cs.utk.edu/~moore/ From: Keith Moore To: Lazlo Nibble cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com (lm), moore@cs.utk.edu Subject: Re: Rogue Systems In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 09 Oct 1995 11:16:50 MDT." <199510091716.LAA17047@kitsune.swcp.com> Date: Mon, 09 Oct 1995 13:58:20 -0400 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > If anyone's compiling a list, I'd really love to get a mob with > torches and pitchforks over to Demon in the UK, to teach them what > the "Precedence: bulk" header means . . . Trouble is, it doesn't mean anything according the standards... and the meaning of Precedence varies depending on what's interpreting it. To some versions of vacation it means "don't reply to this message". To sendmail it means "queue this message with a low priority" and to some versions "don't return content when bouncing the message". To some list server (listproc?) it means "don't forward this message to a list." Then there's a mail gateway which tries to map Precedence into the x.400 priority field and if it doesn't recognize the keyword (last time I checked, it didn't recognize "bulk"), it bounces the message. Because it's so broken, Precedence isn't likely to ever be standardized. However, there is a draft proposal for a new header field to mark auto-submitted and auto-replied messages (which could be used by vacation), and the new NOTARY soon-to-be-standards define an SMTP extension which can be used to request that the body of the failed message not be returned for bounced mail. Keith Moore From list-managers-owner Mon Oct 9 12:00:45 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id LAA18677 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 9 Oct 1995 11:44:45 -0700 Received: from rabbit.wmin.ac.uk (rabbit.wmin.ac.uk [161.74.92.10]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with ESMTP id LAA18669 for ; Mon, 9 Oct 1995 11:44:38 -0700 Message-Id: <199510091844.LAA18669@miles.greatcircle.com> Received: from westminster.ac.uk by rabbit.wmin.ac.uk id <25430-0@rabbit.wmin.ac.uk>; Mon, 9 Oct 1995 19:01:27 +0100 Subject: Re: Rogue Systems To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Date: Mon, 9 Oct 1995 19:01:25 +0100 (BST) Cc: malcolmr@westminster.ac.uk (Malcolm Ray) In-Reply-To: <199510091716.LAA17047@kitsune.swcp.com> from "Lazlo Nibble" at Oct 9, 95 11:16:50 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 519 From: Malcolm Ray Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > > If anyone's compiling a list, I'd really love to get a mob with torches and > pitchforks over to Demon in the UK, to teach them what the "Precedence: bulk" > header means . . . > > -- > ::: Lazlo (lazlo@swcp.com; http://www.swcp.com/lazlo) As far as I'm aware, there's no *standard* interpretation of that header. All the world's not sendmail... -- University of Mostly Westminster malcolmr@westminster.ac.uk Information Resource Services +44-171-911-5000 "We've come a long way from where we are now" From list-managers-owner Mon Oct 9 14:30:52 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id OAA24097 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 9 Oct 1995 14:26:40 -0700 Received: from kitsune.swcp.com (kitsune.swcp.com [198.59.115.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with ESMTP id OAA24090 for ; Mon, 9 Oct 1995 14:26:37 -0700 Received: (from lazlo@localhost) by kitsune.swcp.com (8.6.9/8.6.9) id PAA26826 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Mon, 9 Oct 1995 15:25:17 -0600 From: Lazlo Nibble Message-Id: <199510092125.PAA26826@kitsune.swcp.com> Subject: "Free 1 yr..." To: list-managers@greatcircle.com (lm) Date: Mon, 9 Oct 1995 15:25:16 -0600 (MDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 293 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I'm starting to wonder whether maybe this spam (which seems to be continuing apace) was set up as an attempt to get people to mailbomb the "Samantha Jerrings" accounts. Thank god I tightened up security on my lists after Olga hit... -- ::: Lazlo (lazlo@swcp.com; http://www.swcp.com/lazlo) From list-managers-owner Mon Oct 9 18:00:49 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id RAA29818 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 9 Oct 1995 17:44:53 -0700 Received: from mail04.mail.aol.com (mail04.mail.aol.com [152.163.172.53]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with ESMTP id RAA29811 for ; Mon, 9 Oct 1995 17:44:49 -0700 From: PMDAtropos@aol.com Received: by mail04.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id UAA17901 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Mon, 9 Oct 1995 20:43:32 -0400 Date: Mon, 9 Oct 1995 20:43:32 -0400 Message-ID: <951009204331_119981323@mail04.mail.aol.com> To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: Full mailboxes Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk In a message dated 95-10-08 03:03:06 EDT, henrym@sacto.mp.usbr.gov (Henry W. Miller) writes: >I know that postmaster of AOL monitors this list; I'm not >sure about CIS, though. I run several lists, and frequently get >messages bounced back from AOL and CIS stating that the user's >mailbox is full and to try again later. Why? It occurs to me >that both providers have gigabytes, maybe terabytes of disk storage. >To bounce mail back to the sender is really uncalled for. Surely there >has to be a better way to deal with this. Each AOL member is permitted 550 pieces of mail on our mail host at any given time. At five screen names per account, 3.5 million accounts, that's as many as 9,625,000,000 pieces of mail live on the service at any given time. Each piece of mail can be up to 32k, making storate as much as 308,000,000,000k - not counting file attachments, which I've personally sent as large as 24MB. Obviously, this is an extreme case -- reality is probably more like about four million mailboxes with an average of 300 pieces of mail, each around 5k in size. That's still 12,000,000,000 of space for e-mail alone, plus the file system to keep it on, plus the software to manage it. All in all, I'd think that up to 550MB of mail (inbound mail can be up to 1MB in size), at 550 pieces, is pretty reasonable. AOL members can easily download their entire mailbox contents using FlashSessions, freeing up space on the AOL host system. Likewise, with 5 screen names per account, they can easily divvy their mail load up into multiple screen names. IMO, if a member's mailbox fills up it's their responsibility (and it demonstrates to me as a list owner an unwillingness to commit to my lists. They get removed). If we had a significantly smaller member base, I could see increasing the mailbox size -- and we may yet in the future, though I don't know for sure. For the time being, though, I don't think the current limit is all that unreasonable. -- __ David B. O'Donnell (atropos@aol.net, PMDAtropos@aol.com) \/ AOL Internet Feedback/Response/Information Team Manager Tel. +1 703/448-8700 x3725 - FAX +1 703/883-1514 Belief-L, GLB-News -Press -Discuss, SoftRevu List Owner/Editor http://www.cais.com/atropos/ ---- "The spam stops here." From list-managers-owner Mon Oct 9 21:00:04 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id UAA00156 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 9 Oct 1995 20:42:57 -0700 Received: from Thinkage.On.CA (thinkage.thinkage.on.ca [192.102.11.5]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with ESMTP id UAA00140 for ; Mon, 9 Oct 1995 20:42:53 -0700 Received: (kgdykes@localhost) by thinkage (8.6.10(.4)/Thinkage950227) id XAA02134; Mon, 9 Oct 1995 23:40:26 -0400 Date: Mon, 9 Oct 1995 23:40:26 -0400 From: Ken Dykes Message-Id: <199510100340.XAA02134@Thinkage.On.CA> To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: Full mailboxes Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >From: PMDAtropos@aol.com >Date: Mon, 9 Oct 1995 20:43:32 -0400 >Subject: Re: Full mailboxes > >In a message dated 95-10-08 03:03:06 EDT, henrym@sacto.mp.usbr.gov (Henry W. >Miller) writes: >>sure about CIS, though. I run several lists, and frequently get >>messages bounced back from AOL and CIS stating that the user's >>mailbox is full and to try again later. Why? It occurs to me >>that both providers have gigabytes, maybe terabytes of disk storage. >>To bounce mail back to the sender is really uncalled for. Surely there >>has to be a better way to deal with this. >Each AOL member is permitted 550 pieces of mail on our mail host at any given >time. At five screen names per account, 3.5 million accounts, that's as many >... >All in all, I'd think that up to 550MB of mail (inbound mail can be up to 1MB >in size), at 550 pieces, is pretty reasonable. AOL members can easily >download their entire mailbox contents using FlashSessions, freeing up space >on the AOL host system. Likewise, with 5 screen names per account, they can >easily divvy their mail load up into multiple screen names. IMO, if a >member's mailbox fills up it's their responsibility (and it demonstrates to >me as a list owner an unwillingness to commit to my lists. They get removed). i have had AOL subsscribers who *DO* retreive their mail regularly. But they simply get so much of it they get full mailboxes in very short time. ie: full mailbox is a *transient* problem why dont service providers with mailbox limits return a RETRYABLE transient (resource unavailable?) error to my smtp so that *i* may queue/retry for a couple days? the brutal delivery failure is uncalled for in my opinion too. if the provider is no longer connected to my smtp (ie: the message has been wandering around internal machines before determining the full mailbox status) why dont they set up a buffer-machine which will do the queue/retry for a day or two? this helps us, and still essentially limits stale-mail piling up on users who never seem to sign-on or gone on vacation. - Ken Dykes, Thinkage Ltd., Kitchener, Ontario, Canada [43.40N 80.48W] kgdykes@thinkage.on.ca postmaster@thinkage.com From list-managers-owner Mon Oct 9 21:42:37 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id VAA02096 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 9 Oct 1995 21:33:21 -0700 Received: from wilma.cs.utk.edu (WILMA.CS.UTK.EDU [128.169.94.141]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with ESMTP id VAA02089 for ; Mon, 9 Oct 1995 21:33:18 -0700 Received: from LOCALHOST by wilma.cs.utk.edu with SMTP (cf v2.11c-UTK) id AAA02506; Tue, 10 Oct 1995 00:31:06 -0400 Message-Id: <199510100431.AAA02506@wilma.cs.utk.edu> X-URI: http://www.cs.utk.edu/~moore/ From: Keith Moore To: Ken Dykes cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com, moore@cs.utk.edu Subject: Re: Full mailboxes In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 09 Oct 1995 23:40:26 EDT." <199510100340.XAA02134@Thinkage.On.CA> Date: Tue, 10 Oct 1995 00:30:58 -0400 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > i have had AOL subsscribers who *DO* retreive their mail regularly. But they > simply get so much of it they get full mailboxes in very short time. > > ie: full mailbox is a *transient* problem > > why dont service providers with mailbox limits return a RETRYABLE transient > (resource unavailable?) error to my smtp so that *i* may queue/retry for > a couple days? > the brutal delivery failure is uncalled for in my opinion too. I agree with this. If a user doesn't have any more message slots, return a 452 error for that user's RCPT command. Even better, if your SMTP supports the SIZE extension, and the sender-SMTP asserts SIZE=XXXX in the MAIL command, you can decide whether the message is too big before accepting it. (See RFC 1653.) But to put it in other terms: Addresses that bounce mail get deleted from my mailing lists. This penalizes those who use service providers that either (a) are unreliable or (b) gratuitously bounce mail for transient errors. (more often the former than the latter). I've had several subscribers change to more reliable service providers after being deleted from a list once or twice. (I've seen a LOT worse than AOL, so I'm not complaining about them per se.) Keith From list-managers-owner Mon Oct 9 22:44:19 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id WAA04329 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 9 Oct 1995 22:40:54 -0700 Received: from maytag.graphics.cornell.edu (MAYTAG.GRAPHICS.CORNELL.EDU [128.84.247.157]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with SMTP id LAA18362 for ; Mon, 9 Oct 1995 11:24:35 -0700 Received: from localhost by maytag.graphics.cornell.edu; (5.65/1.1.8.2/07Nov94-0649PM) id AA28774; Mon, 9 Oct 1995 14:23:11 -0400 Message-Id: <9510091823.AA28774@maytag.graphics.cornell.edu> X-Mailer: exmh version 1.6gamma 3/31/95 To: "Henry W. Miller" Cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: Hit List In-Reply-To: Your message of "Sat, 07 Oct 95 23:51:35 PDT." <00997898.4C9E33A0.14@sacto.mp.usbr.gov> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Mon, 09 Oct 95 14:23:08 -0400 From: Mitch Collinsworth X-Mts: smtp Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > Has anyone compiled a "hit list" of bad mail hosts, i.e., My Do-Not-Subscribe list includes the following: sltrib.com indirect.com raychem.com radiomail.net Tom Dolan mhs.unc.edu sch.com I don't keep track of why I put a site on my list but normally it is reserved for sites that somehow manage to bounce undeliverable messages back to the list's posting address. I'm quite lenient about most problems. On this one I'm not. -Mitch From list-managers-owner Tue Oct 10 06:13:06 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id GAA15033 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 10 Oct 1995 06:04:05 -0700 Received: from FSM-1.PICA.ARMY.MIL (fsm-1.pica.army.mil [129.139.164.101]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with SMTP id GAA15026 for ; Tue, 10 Oct 1995 06:04:02 -0700 Date: Tue, 10 Oct 95 9:03:50 EDT From: Info-LabVIEW List Maintainer To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: Rogue Systems Organization: Electric Armts Div, US Army ARDEC, Picatinny Arsenal, NJ Message-ID: <9510100903.aa27680@fsm-1.pica.army.mil> Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >If anyone's compiling a list, I'd really love to get a mob with torches and >pitchforks over to Demon in the UK, to teach them what the "Precedence: bulk" >header means . . . Huh? It means nothing. (Unless you know about an RFC I don't) Tom Coradeschi, Info-LabVIEW List Maintainer http://k-whiner.pica.army.mil/info-labview/info-labview.html From list-managers-owner Tue Oct 10 07:00:22 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id GAA16060 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 10 Oct 1995 06:49:29 -0700 Received: from relay.mod.uk (relay.mod.uk [192.5.29.50]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with SMTP id GAA16052; Tue, 10 Oct 1995 06:49:14 -0700 Received: from hermes.dra.hmg.gb by relay.mod.uk with local SMTP id ; Tue, 10 Oct 1995 14:47:00 +0100 Received: from wandle.dra.hmg.gb by hermes.dra.hmg.gb (MX V4.1 VAX) with SMTP; Tue, 10 Oct 1995 14:46:13 GMT Received: from rivers.dra.hmg.gb by wandle.dra.hmg.gb with smtp(Smail3.1.28.1 #64) id m0t2f03-0007UqC; Tue, 10 Oct 95 14:45 WET DST for (chris@rivers.dra.hmg.gb) X-Mailer: exmh version 1.6.1 5/23/95 To: HollyBerry admin , postmaster@syl.dl.nec.com, NEC admin , postmaster@mystery.muc.de, B3 Corp admin CC: firewalls-owner@GreatCircle.COM, list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Reply-To: chris@rivers.dra.hmg.gb Organization: Open Software Systems Group, DRA Malvern, UK Subject: Heads up alert to mass e-mailing (spam) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed ; boundary="===_0_Tue_Oct_10_14:24:40_BST_1995" Date: Tue, 10 Oct 1995 14:45:43 +0100 Message-ID: <18051.813332743@rivers.dra.hmg.gb> From: Christopher Samuel Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk This is a multipart MIME message. --===_0_Tue_Oct_10_14:24:40_BST_1995 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii /* * Cc'd to the firewalls list admin and the list-managers mailing list * as a "heads up" warning * * Reply-To: is set back to myself */ I've just received the message I've attached from the firewalls mailing list. As far as I can tell it took the following route to get to me: Someone using ip61.abq-dialin.hollyberry.com at some unknown time (possibly Mon, 09 Oct 1995 04:15:12 +0100) mailed a message via a mail -> news gateway at mystery.muc.de to a whole host of newsgroups (some of which appear to be gated mailing lists), with an alleged From: line of SpAmKiNg@free.org. This trundled across Usenet to syl.dl.nec.com, where the NEC news->mail gateway forwarded the message to the firewalls mailing list (and probably the others mentioned in the Newsgroups). I thought I'd warn you folks as it's quite possible that some of the residents of the lists mentioned may not take kindly to it, and not bother looking too hard at the path the message really took. It's also in the hope that someone there can find out who did it.. Best of luck folks, Chris P.S. To those on list-managers, read the spammers sig and weep.. :-( -- Christopher Samuel, Open Software Systems Group, chris@rivers.dra.hmg.gb N-115, Defence Research Agency, St Andrews Road, Great Malvern, England, UK DISCLAIMER: I write only for myself, not for DRA. Phone: +44 1684 894644 --===_0_Tue_Oct_10_14:24:40_BST_1995 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Description: 481 Return-Path: Received: from wandle.dra.hmg.gb by brandywine.dra.hmg.gb with smtp(Smail3.1.28.1 #94) id m0t2d8x-0002kua; Tue, 10 Oct 95 12:46 BST for chris Received: from hermes.dra.hmg.gb by wandle.dra.hmg.gb with smtp(Smail3.1.28.1 #64) id m0t2d8u-0007Uqa; Tue, 10 Oct 95 12:46 WET DST for real-chris@brandywine (firewalls-owner@GreatCircle.COM) Received: from relay.mod.uk by hermes.dra.hmg.gb (MX V4.1 VAX) with SMTP; Tue, 10 Oct 1995 12:47:06 GMT Received: from relay3.UU.NET by relay.mod.uk with Internet SMTP id ; Tue, 10 Oct 1995 12:47:09 +0100 Received: from miles.greatcircle.com by relay3.UU.NET with ESMTP id QQzkvm00225; Tue, 10 Oct 1995 07:38:37 -0400 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id EAA11604 for firewalls-outgoing; Tue, 10 Oct 1995 04:11:57 -0700 Received: from telemann.inoc.dl.nec.com (telemann.inoc.dl.nec.com [143.101.112.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with ESMTP id EAA11597 for ; Tue, 10 Oct 1995 04:11:53 -0700 Received: by telemann.inoc.dl.nec.com (8.6.12/YDL1.9.1-940729.15) id GAA08829(telemann.inoc.dl.nec.com); Tue, 10 Oct 1995 06:09:59 -0500 Received: by texas.syl.dl.nec.com (8.6.12/YDL1.9.1-940729.15) id GAA21419(texas.syl.dl.nec.com); Tue, 10 Oct 1995 06:09:57 -0500 To: firewalls@GreatCircle.com Date: Mon, 09 Oct 1995 04:15:12 +0100 From: SpAmKiNg@free.org (SpamKing_Low_Cost_Bulk_E_Mail) Message-ID: Organization: SpAmKiNg Has Low Cost Bulk E Mail Rates! (505) 821-1945 Path: syl.dl.nec.com!vivaldi.inoc.dl.nec.com!seas.smu.edu!news01.aud.alcatel.com!gatech!news.mathworks.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!EU.net!Germany.EU.net!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!news.muc.de!mystery.muc.de!newsgate Subject: WE THE PEOPLE "....want the facts to make informed intelligent decisions" Newsgroups: muc.lists.netbsd.portable-ppp,muc.lists.netbsd.ports,muc.lists.netbsd.source-changes,muc.lists.netbsd.tech.install,muc.lists.netbsd.tech.kern,muc.lists.netbsd.tech.misc,muc.lists.netbsd.tech.net,muc.lists.netbsd.tech.ports,muc.lists.netbsd.tech.userlevel,muc.lists.netbsd.users,muc.lists.ntk,muc.lists.osf-managers,muc.lists.soziologie,muc.market,muc.misc,muc.rec,muc.verkehr,mucev.lists.asus-boards,nbg.general,nctu.ac.general,nctu.adm.alumni-center,ne.config,ne.general.selected,ne.internet.services,ne.jobs.contract,ne.transportation,ne.weather,necus.internet.announce,necus.internet.mirror.big-linux,necus.internet.mirror.firewalls,news.admin.hierarchies,news.admin.misc Sender: firewalls-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk WE THE PEOPLE "....want the facts to make informed intelligent decisions" "If members of our society were empowered to make their own decisions...then the whole rationale for the agency would cease to exist."- Dr. David Kessler, - Food & Drug Administration "Commissioner" Our focus for the upcoming political races is the preservation of the 1st amendment of the constitutional "Bill of Rights". The fact that you can freely read this letter is due to the 1st amendment. Some people in our government feel that we need to be regulated in the way we use this forum to gather & share information. We need this forum so that all points of view can be shared freely without threat of persecution........Remember Ruby Ridge, Waco.... The future of our country is a stake. Seek out and elect local, state & federal officials who will uphold your right to freely gather and disperse information in all or any forms be they electronic written or otherwise. Amendment 1 Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press, or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances. Did the founding fathers intend for us to be enslaved in regulatory law ? NO! If you share in the belief that the founding fathers never intended that we should be at the mercy of government to decide if we are able to handle the responsibility of making informed intelligent decisions, then seek out candidates who will promise to uphold our constitutional rights, support those candidates that promise to vote against any legislation that infringes on the 1st amendment rights of any citizen of this great country. The future freedom of all people rest in the actions we will take now. "Independent" candidates who seek our support please submit your agenda to us at the address below. A nice size bumper sticker with a flattering picture of "Commissioner " Kessler with his famed quote, "If members..." is available Send $10.00 for (2) including p&h, to our address below.(share one with a friend) If you would like to support our work please send two dollars to: "We The People" 5505 Connecticut Ave. NW Suite 245 Washington, DC 20015-2601 -- PLEASE RESPOND DIRECTLY TO THE ADVERTISER. THIS MESSAGE BROUGHT TO YOU BY THE SpAmKiNg Call SpAmKiNg for the BEST BULK-E MAIL RATES! You can now reach over 6 MILLION + Internet subcribers for a low cost of $425.00. (I will post your message to 2.5 MILLION GOOD E-MAIL ADDRESSES, minimum of 9500 + USENET NEWS GROUPS AND 1400 LIST SERVE MAILING LISTS) Satisfaction IS Guaranteed! ASK about my Special Monthly, Bi Monthly, and Weekly rates. **SPECIAL RATES TO 501 C 3 NON PROFITS.** Call the SpAmKiNg at (505) 821-1945 voice mail. Please leave your NAME, ADDRESS & PHONE NUMBER. I will return your call. Sorry, incomplete information will not receive a response. --===_0_Tue_Oct_10_14:24:40_BST_1995-- From list-managers-owner Tue Oct 10 07:42:46 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id HAA18666 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 10 Oct 1995 07:42:00 -0700 Received: from access5.digex.net (access5.digex.net [205.197.245.196]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with ESMTP id HAA18657 for ; Tue, 10 Oct 1995 07:41:55 -0700 Received: (from asgilman@localhost) by access5.digex.net (8.6.12/8.6.12) id KAA16867 ; for ; Tue, 10 Oct 1995 10:39:33 -0400 From: Al Gilman Message-Id: <199510101439.KAA16867@access5.digex.net> Subject: Re: Heads up alert to mass e-mailing (spam) To: chris@rivers.dra.hmg.gb Date: Tue, 10 Oct 1995 10:39:32 -0400 (EDT) Cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com In-Reply-To: <18051.813332743@rivers.dra.hmg.gb> from "Christopher Samuel" at Oct 10, 95 02:45:43 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24beta] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 393 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk This is where the Internet's paranoia about legislation and law enforcement turns and bites the Internet. If there were one common fabric of appropriate use standards with teeth, i.e. an integrated enforcement program, across the breadth of telecommunication, the telephone service provider would promptly lift the service at the cited phone number, and the spammer would be SOL. Al Gilman From list-managers-owner Tue Oct 10 08:35:17 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id IAA19925 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 10 Oct 1995 08:18:41 -0700 Received: from wilma.cs.utk.edu (WILMA.CS.UTK.EDU [128.169.94.141]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with ESMTP id IAA19918 for ; Tue, 10 Oct 1995 08:18:36 -0700 Received: from LOCALHOST by wilma.cs.utk.edu with SMTP (cf v2.11c-UTK) id LAA03961; Tue, 10 Oct 1995 11:16:23 -0400 Message-Id: <199510101516.LAA03961@wilma.cs.utk.edu> X-URI: http://www.cs.utk.edu/~moore/ From: Keith Moore To: Al Gilman cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com, moore@cs.utk.edu Subject: Re: Heads up alert to mass e-mailing (spam) In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 10 Oct 1995 10:39:32 EDT." <199510101439.KAA16867@access5.digex.net> Date: Tue, 10 Oct 1995 11:16:12 -0400 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > If there were one common fabric of appropriate use standards with > teeth, i.e. an integrated enforcement program, across the breadth > of telecommunication, the telephone service provider would > promptly lift the service at the cited phone number, and the > spammer would be SOL. Actually, this seems to happen most of the time -- the offender gets his account taken away. But there are so many Internet service providers that it's easy to get a new account with some other service. (we might have the same problem with telephones once it becomes possible to get a dialtone from several different local telephone companies) The variant I've seen more recently is to use a "throwaway" address as the source of the spams, but tell people to send replies to a "stable" email address which isn't used for spamming. That way the offenders can still get receive responses to the spam. Keith From list-managers-owner Tue Oct 10 09:14:26 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id JAA21519 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 10 Oct 1995 09:06:05 -0700 Received: from access5.digex.net (access5.digex.net [205.197.245.196]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with ESMTP id JAA21505 for ; Tue, 10 Oct 1995 09:06:01 -0700 Received: (from asgilman@localhost) by access5.digex.net (8.6.12/8.6.12) id MAA27593 ; for ; Tue, 10 Oct 1995 12:03:51 -0400 From: Al Gilman Message-Id: <199510101603.MAA27593@access5.digex.net> Subject: Re: Heads up alert to mass e-mailing (spam) To: moore@cs.utk.edu (Keith Moore) Date: Tue, 10 Oct 1995 12:03:51 -0400 (EDT) Cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com In-Reply-To: <199510101516.LAA03961@wilma.cs.utk.edu> from "Keith Moore" at Oct 10, 95 11:16:12 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24beta] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 801 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Actually, this seems to happen most of the time -- the offender gets his account taken away. But there are so many Internet service providers that it's easy to get a new account with some other service. (we might have the same problem with telephones once it becomes possible to get a dialtone from several different local telephone companies) You missed the particular method to my madness. It doesn't matter if the culprit can get 1000 'Net accounts and phone numbers. The free advertising that he/she _stole_ by breaking the 'Net discipline will not gain him/her _any financial gain_ so long as the specific number which is _the only trace to him/her in the spam_ doesn't work as a way to do business. You have taken away the incentive. But it has to be quick. Al Gilman From list-managers-owner Tue Oct 10 09:42:41 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id JAA22502 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 10 Oct 1995 09:34:13 -0700 Received: from ornette.uchicago.edu (ornette.uchicago.edu [128.135.99.101]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with ESMTP id JAA22495 for ; Tue, 10 Oct 1995 09:34:07 -0700 Received: from localhost (localhost.uchicago.edu [127.0.0.1]) by ornette.uchicago.edu (8.6.10/8.6.11) with ESMTP id LAA13682 for ; Tue, 10 Oct 1995 11:31:49 -0500 Message-Id: <199510101631.LAA13682@ornette.uchicago.edu> X-Mailer: exmh version 1.6.1 5/23/95 Reply-To: ckk@uchicago.edu From: ckk@uchicago.edu To: List-Managers@greatcircle.com Subject: tracking "Samantha Jerrings" Re: FREE 1 yr Magazine Subs... In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 09 Oct 1995 18:00:56 PDT." <199510100100.SAA00362@miles.greatcircle.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Tue, 10 Oct 1995 11:31:48 -0500 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I got 4 copies of the "Samantha Jerrings" FREE 1yr Magazine Subs message yesterday. I posted a note about it to news.admin.net-abuse.misc, maybe you should follow up there with your own experiences. One copy came through the header-people@mc.lcs.mit.edu mailing list. Another copy (each came from a different address) was from purportedly from "beef@cow.net" and here's the response I eventually got from postmaster@cow.net. I'm still waiting to hear from various other postmasters, especially postmaster@nd.edu where the header-people copy seemed to have come from. Chris Koenigsberg U. of Chicago Academic Computing Services -------------- begin forwarded message --------------- Date: Tue, 10 Oct 95 09:41:39 EDT From: cowz@cow.net (COWZ Technologies) Subject: Re: ===>> FREE 1 yr. Magazine Sub sent worldwide- 300+ Popular USA Titles I'm sorry about the spamming. Someone forged a posting from the cow.net system, using beef@cow.net, which is our information request address. Because of this forgery (which we're trying to track down the true originator of), the cow.net system was crashed 20 times this weekend, sometimes by hackers, sometimes by the roughly 100 megs of justifiably angry "spam-back" replies to the message, which, like I indicated, was forged. I'm sorry, once again, for any trouble and inconvenience this caused you, and hope that this event does not reflect upon COWZ and the cow.net system. Jason Scott COWZ BBS/cow.net Administrator From list-managers-owner Tue Oct 10 10:14:22 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id KAA23578 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 10 Oct 1995 10:05:28 -0700 Received: from Princeton.EDU (Princeton.EDU [128.112.128.1]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with SMTP id KAA23566 for ; Tue, 10 Oct 1995 10:05:24 -0700 Received: from ponyexpress.Princeton.EDU by Princeton.EDU (5.65b/2.122/princeton) id AA09170; Tue, 10 Oct 95 12:40:03 -0400 Received: from clytemnestra.Princeton.EDU (jwagner@clytemnestra.Princeton.EDU [128.112.232.62]) by ponyexpress.Princeton.EDU (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id MAA03085 for ; Tue, 10 Oct 1995 12:39:57 -0400 Received: from localhost (jwagner@localhost) by clytemnestra.Princeton.EDU (8.6.9/8.6.12) with SMTP id MAA27099 for ; Tue, 10 Oct 1995 12:39:55 -0400 Message-Id: <199510101639.MAA27099@clytemnestra.Princeton.EDU> X-Authentication-Warning: clytemnestra.Princeton.EDU: jwagner owned process doing -bs X-Authentication-Warning: clytemnestra.Princeton.EDU: Host localhost didn't use HELO protocol X-Mailer: exmh version 1.6.2 7/18/95 To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Heads up alert to mass e-mailing (spam) In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 10 Oct 1995 14:45:43 BST." <18051.813332743@rivers.dra.hmg.gb> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Tue, 10 Oct 1995 12:39:55 EDT From: John Wagner Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > > Call SpAmKiNg for the BEST BULK-E MAIL RATES! You can now reach over > 6 MILLION + Internet subcribers for a low cost of $425.00. (I will post your > message to 2.5 MILLION GOOD E-MAIL ADDRESSES, minimum of 9500 + USENET NEWS G > ROUPS AND 1400 LIST SERVE MAILING LISTS) Satisfaction IS Guaranteed! ASK abo > ut my Special Monthly, Bi Monthly, and Weekly rates. **SPECIAL RATES TO 501 C > 3 NON PROFITS.** > Call the SpAmKiNg at (505) 821-1945 voice mail. Please leave your NAME, ADDRE > SS & PHONE NUMBER. I will return your call. Sorry, incomplete information wil > l not receive a response. Anyone care to speculate on the ramifications of several uucp sites adding this phone number to their dial-out list and setting retry to every minute? Any 505 areacode volunteers? John Wagner From list-managers-owner Tue Oct 10 10:35:49 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id KAA23900 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 10 Oct 1995 10:19:50 -0700 Received: from ecsvax.uncecs.edu (ecsvax.uncecs.edu [152.4.1.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with SMTP id KAA23893 for ; Tue, 10 Oct 1995 10:19:44 -0700 Received: by ecsvax.uncecs.edu (5.65/tas-gen/may94) id AA21068; Tue, 10 Oct 1995 13:17:58 -0400 From: "Byron C. Howes" Message-Id: <9510101717.AA21068@ecsvax.uncecs.edu> Subject: Re: tracking "Samantha Jerrings" Re: FREE 1 yr Magazine Subs... To: ckk@uchicago.edu Date: Tue, 10 Oct 95 13:17:58 EDT Cc: List-Managers@greatcircle.com In-Reply-To: <199510101631.LAA13682@ornette.uchicago.edu>; from "ckk@uchicago.edu" at Oct 10, 95 11:31 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL11] Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk ckk@uchicago.edu writes: > Another copy (each came from a different address) was from purportedly from > "beef@cow.net" and here's the response I eventually got from > postmaster@cow.net. I'm still waiting to hear from various other postmasters, > especially postmaster@nd.edu where the header-people copy seemed to have come > from. I have encouraged the cow.net owner and sysadmin to go to the authorities with this. This particular spam attack resulted in what amounts to a LOS attack on his system (and presumably other systems whose addresses were forged) because of the massive return of email to his system. What's relevant to this list is that a completely unmoderated list can be used as a vehicle for an indirect Loss of Service attack on an unwitting host. Because most mailing list software masks the original headers on redistribution it may not be possible to easily track back to the original perpetrator. Pardon me if I'm covering old ground, I'm new to the list. --Byron Howes Systems Administrator UNC General Administration bch@ga.unc.edu From list-managers-owner Tue Oct 10 13:13:05 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id NAA29845 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 10 Oct 1995 13:00:48 -0700 Received: from mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (mycroft.greatcircle.com [198.102.244.35]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with ESMTP id NAA29838 for ; Tue, 10 Oct 1995 13:00:46 -0700 Received: from kitsune.swcp.com by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.10/SMI-4.1/Brent-950602) id MAA17498; Tue, 10 Oct 1995 12:51:37 -0700 Received: (from lazlo@localhost) by kitsune.swcp.com (8.6.9/8.6.9) id NAA08872 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Tue, 10 Oct 1995 13:56:16 -0600 From: Lazlo Nibble Message-Id: <199510101956.NAA08872@kitsune.swcp.com> Subject: Re: Heads up alert to mass e-mailing (spam) To: list-managers@greatcircle.com (lm) Date: Tue, 10 Oct 1995 13:56:15 -0600 (MDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 830 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >> Call the SpAmKiNg at (505) 821-1945 voice mail. Please leave your NAME, >> ADDRESS & PHONE NUMBER. I will return your call. Sorry, incomplete >> information will not receive a response. > > Anyone care to speculate on the ramifications of several uucp sites > adding this phone number to their dial-out list and setting retry to > every minute? I suspect the most likely ramification would be the phone company coming to your house and kicking you in the ass for "harrassment." I wouldn't be in any kind of hurry to assume that this phone number even belongs to the guy doing the spamming. It's interesting to me that the "incomplete information will not recieve a response" comment appears in both the SpamKing messages and the "1-Year Free Subscription" messages. -- ::: Lazlo (lazlo@swcp.com; http://www.swcp.com/lazlo) From list-managers-owner Tue Oct 10 13:22:35 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id NAA00117 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 10 Oct 1995 13:10:42 -0700 Received: from netcomsv.netcom.com (uucp9.netcom.com [163.179.3.9]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with ESMTP id NAA00110 for ; Tue, 10 Oct 1995 13:10:39 -0700 Received: by netcomsv.netcom.com with UUCP (8.6.12/SMI-4.1) id MAA22638; Tue, 10 Oct 1995 12:58:13 -0700 Received: from iceman.triad.com by triad.com (5.61/SMI-4.1) id AA28792; Tue, 10 Oct 95 11:09:27 -0700 Received: by iceman.triad.com (5.65/TRSC-4.0) id AA02588; Tue, 10 Oct 95 11:11:04 -0700 Date: Tue, 10 Oct 95 11:11:04 -0700 From: mgg@iceman.triad.com (Mark Galbraith) Message-Id: <9510101811.AA02588@iceman.triad.com> To: jwagner@Princeton.EDU Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: <199510101639.MAA27099@clytemnestra.Princeton.EDU> (message from John Wagner on Tue, 10 Oct 1995 12:39:55 EDT) Subject: Re: Heads up alert to mass e-mailing (spam) Organization: Triad Systems, Livermore CA X-Phone: +1 510 449 0606 x6513 X-Mailer: Emacs-19.19 X-Attribution: mgg Reply-To: mgg@triad.com Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >>>>> "John" == John Wagner writes: >> >> Call SpAmKiNg for the BEST BULK-E MAIL RATES! You can now reach over >> 6 MILLION + Internet subcribers for a low cost of $425.00. (I will post your >> message to 2.5 MILLION GOOD E-MAIL ADDRESSES, minimum of 9500 + USENET NEWS G >> ROUPS AND 1400 LIST SERVE MAILING LISTS) Satisfaction IS Guaranteed! ASK abo >> ut my Special Monthly, Bi Monthly, and Weekly rates. **SPECIAL RATES TO 501 C >> 3 NON PROFITS.** >> Call the SpAmKiNg at (505) 821-1945 voice mail. Please leave your NAME, ADDRE >> SS & PHONE NUMBER. I will return your call. Sorry, incomplete information wil >> l not receive a response. John> Anyone care to speculate on the ramifications of several uucp sites adding John> this phone number to their dial-out list and setting retry to every minute? John> Any 505 areacode volunteers? First call it to make sure the number is not a forgery. I'm sure you would be frustrated if someone gave out *your* number and then suddenly you started getting phone calls every minute with no one there. -- Mark Galbraith Senior UNIX Engineer/Postmaster PGP Key (E3468605) = 1C B9 74 81 AD 5C 57 09 69 0B AC 09 7F 65 D6 F6 "Those that give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -- Benjamin Franklin (1773) From list-managers-owner Tue Oct 10 17:15:03 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id RAA09789 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 10 Oct 1995 17:02:19 -0700 Received: from colin.muc.de (colin.muc.de [193.174.4.1]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with SMTP id RAA09782 for ; Tue, 10 Oct 1995 17:02:09 -0700 Received: from mystery by colin.muc.de with UUCP id <41361-1>; Wed, 11 Oct 1995 00:59:33 +0100 Received: by mystery.muc.de (AmigaSmail3.10 for ) id <0wih@mystery.muc.de>; Wed, 11 Oct 1995 00:47:00 CET In-Reply-To: <18051.813332743@rivers.dra.hmg.gb> from "Christopher Samuel" at Oct 10, 95 02:46:43 pm Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL21] Content-Type: text Content-Length: 1425 To: chris@rivers.dra.hmg.gb Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM, firewalls-owner@GreatCircle.COM, postmaster@free.org, hans@muc.de, postmaster@nec.com, postmaster@syl.dl.nec.com, postmaster@hollyberry.com From: hans@mystery.muc.de (Hans Maurer) Subject: Re: Heads up alert to mass e-mailing (spam) Message-Id: <9510102347.AA0wif@mystery.muc.de> Date: Wed, 11 Oct 1995 00:47:35 +0100 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Hello, Christopher Samuel writes: > Someone using ip61.abq-dialin.hollyberry.com at some unknown time > (possibly Mon, 09 Oct 1995 04:15:12 +0100) mailed a message via a > mail -> news gateway at mystery.muc.de to a whole host of newsgroups > (some of which appear to be gated mailing lists), with an alleged > From: line of SpAmKiNg@free.org. I'm running a mail2news gateway that gates the NetBSD mailing lists to Munichs's more or less local newsgroups muc.lists.netbsd.*. Since these groups are moderated and the moderator's addresses are the mailing lists themselves, "Spamking"'s article was not posted locally (at hollyberry.com), but was forwarded to the portable-ppp mailing list, which forwarded the article (besides others) to my site, where the article finally got into the Usenet. I changed the gateway configuration, so that Newsgroups headers in the original mails are now ignored (I should have done that in the first place, sorry). I'm currently trying to get a copy of the original mail. > It's also in the hope that someone there can find out who did it.. BTW: This spam has been posted in 11 articles to 365 newsgroups. "Spamking" seems to be wellknown. Please refer to news.admin.net-abuse.* for more information and discussion. Sincerly, Hans -- Hans Maurer hans.maurer@informatik.tu-muenchen.de hans@leo.org hans@mystery.muc.de From list-managers-owner Wed Oct 11 00:30:01 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id AAA19348 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 11 Oct 1995 00:28:05 -0700 Received: from vinkku.hut.fi (vinkku.hut.fi [130.233.245.1]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with ESMTP id AAA19341 for ; Wed, 11 Oct 1995 00:28:00 -0700 Received: from delta.hut.fi (delta.hut.fi [130.233.224.53]) by vinkku.hut.fi (8.6.12/8.6.7) with ESMTP id JAA01725; Wed, 11 Oct 1995 09:25:50 +0200 Received: (zarr@localhost) by delta.hut.fi (8.6.11/8.6.7) id JAA27543; Wed, 11 Oct 1995 09:25:49 +0200 Date: Wed, 11 Oct 1995 09:25:49 +0200 Message-Id: <199510110725.JAA27543@delta.hut.fi> From: Mari Sepp{ To: Bruce Perens Cc: Info-LabVIEW List Maintainer , list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Returned mail: User unknown In-Reply-To: References: <9510051555.aa05373@fsm-1.pica.army.mil> Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Bruce Perens writes: > I haven't heard back from Mark, but I'd guess he's afraid that the "lists" > request is the prelude to a spam. Or might be that he does not maintain a majordomo at all and all those requests have been send to different hosts at random so that the user can find out if there is a majordomo maintained mailing lists there. Mari From list-managers-owner Wed Oct 11 09:16:04 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id JAA02177 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 11 Oct 1995 09:02:14 -0700 Received: from ornette.uchicago.edu (ornette.uchicago.edu [128.135.99.101]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with ESMTP id JAA02168 for ; Wed, 11 Oct 1995 09:02:10 -0700 Received: from localhost (localhost.uchicago.edu [127.0.0.1]) by ornette.uchicago.edu (8.6.10/8.6.11) with ESMTP id KAA00528; Wed, 11 Oct 1995 10:59:28 -0500 Message-Id: <199510111559.KAA00528@ornette.uchicago.edu> X-Mailer: exmh version 1.6.1 5/23/95 Reply-To: postmaster@uchicago.edu From: postmaster@uchicago.edu To: postmaster@ixc.ixc.net Subject: continuing Magazine Sub email spam coming through ixc.net Cc: postmaster@cornell.edu, list-managers@greatcircle.com, header-people@mc.lcs.mit.edu, postmaster@ingress.com, postmaster@uchicago.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Wed, 11 Oct 1995 10:59:27 -0500 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Dear postmaster at ixc.ixc.net, You did not reply to my previous inquiry about this problem, and today I have received another obnoxious email message which was sent to a mailing list, using your site's facilities. The name has changed, from "Samantha Jerrings" to "Janet Dove" but the essence is the same, a widely distributed attempt to gain new customers for a magazine subscription service. Enclosed are the headers from this latest message, plus an excerpt containing the company address which might yield more information. According to the first Received: header, it originated from pm1-62.ixc.net [198.70.48.62] and was sent through cornell.edu from there, on to the header-people mailing list. However, the Message-id implicates a host [205.230.67.34] (which corresponds to the hostname ppp34.ingress.com). As I said, this is an ongoing problem involving abuse of the Net via your ixc.net facilities. What are you going to do about this problem? Sincerely, Chris Koenigsberg U. of Chicago Academic Computing Services ------- Forwarded Headers begin here Received: from mc.lcs.mit.edu (mc.lcs.mit.edu [18.111.0.179]) by prism.uchicago.edu (8.6.11/8.6.11) with SMTP id HAA27303 for ; Wed, 11 Oct 1995 07:35:11 -0500 Received: from mc.lcs.mit.edu by mc.lcs.mit.edu id aa18832; 11 Oct 95 7:30 EDT Received: from cornell.edu by mc.lcs.mit.edu id aa18812; 11 Oct 95 7:24 EDT Received: from [198.70.48.62] (pm1-62.ixc.net [198.70.48.62]) by cornell.edu (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id DAA27615; Wed, 11 Oct 1995 03:47:36 -0400 X-Sender: For.a.prompter.reply.please.fax@If.you.do.not.have.a.fax.smail.is.ok (Unverified) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 11 Oct 1995 04:29:46 -0500 X-PH: V3.6.1@prism To: For.a.prompter.reply.please.fax@if.you.do.not.have.a.fax.smail.is.ok From: "You will\ get a quick reply via email within 1 business day of receipt of the info\ request form below." Subject: *new* reply info: ===>> FREE 1 yr. Magazine Sub sent worldwide- 300+ Popular USA Titles [.....] Please do not email me as I am just a happy customer and a *busy* student. I don't have time to even complete my thesis in time, let alone run my part-time software business! Please fill out the below form and fax it to them in the USA at 718-967-1144 (24 hrs. per day, 7 days a week), or smail it to them at the following address: Magazine Club Inquiry Center Att. Internet services dept. PO Box 120990 Staten Island NY 10312-0990 How did you hear about us (name of person who referred you or the area of the internet that you saw us mentioned in): Janet Dove's referral 101095 --------------------------------------------------------------- From list-managers-owner Wed Oct 11 09:31:23 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id JAA02363 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 11 Oct 1995 09:15:53 -0700 Received: from hera.cuci.nl (cuci.ixe.net [205.244.45.192]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with ESMTP id JAA02356 for ; Wed, 11 Oct 1995 09:15:48 -0700 Received: (from srb@localhost) by hera.cuci.nl (8.7.1/BuGless_1.02) id RAA18930; Wed, 11 Oct 1995 17:13:27 +0100 Message-Id: <199510111613.RAA18930@hera.cuci.nl> From: srb@cuci.nl (Stephen R. van den Berg) Date: Wed, 11 Oct 1995 17:13:27 +0100 In-Reply-To: Jon Lewis's message as of 1995 Oct 11 Wed 11:01. To: procmail@Informatik.RWTH-Aachen.DE Subject: Re: *new* reply info: ===>> FREE 1 yr. Magazine Sub sent worldwide- 300+ Popular USA Titles Cc: SmartList@informatik.rwth-aachen.de, list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Jon Lewis wrote: >Can anything be done at the list server system to track where this came >from? I've already tried to track it down. It seems to emanate from a machine (most likely a PC which is turned off currently) called pm1-62.ixc.net which is using the mailer at cornell.edu to distribute the message. However, perhaps in a feeble attempt to throw us off, the message ID appears to be generated on ppp34.ingress.com (a dialup line, I presume). > I've received at least half a dozen copies from one other mailing >list that they seem to be hitting daily. Would you happen to have a copy for me that arrived at least a day earlier? I'd like to compare headers. Careful when replying to this message, it will go to three mailinglists, edit the recipient list if you want to restrict the distribution of your reply. -- Sincerely, srb@cuci.nl Stephen R. van den Berg (AKA BuGless). Real programmers don't produce results, they return exit codes. From list-managers-owner Wed Oct 11 09:44:29 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id JAA02729 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 11 Oct 1995 09:37:03 -0700 Received: from netcomsv.netcom.com (uumail2.netcom.com [163.179.3.52]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with ESMTP id JAA02722 for ; Wed, 11 Oct 1995 09:37:00 -0700 Received: from znyx.com by netcomsv.netcom.com with SMTP (8.6.12/SMI-4.1) id JAA03015; Wed, 11 Oct 1995 09:34:11 -0700 Received: from alan.znyx.com by znyx.com (5.65/1.35) id AA12336; Wed, 11 Oct 95 09:22:21 -0700 Date: Wed, 11 Oct 95 09:22:21 -0700 Message-Id: <9510111622.AA12336@znyx.com> X-Sender: alan@znyx.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: list-managers@greatcircle.com From: alan@znyx.com (Alan Deikman) Subject: continuing Magazine Sub email spam coming through ixc.net Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >The name has changed, from "Samantha Jerrings" >to "Janet Dove" but the essence is the same, a widely distributed attempt to >gain new customers for a magazine subscription service. I first saw this about a month ago on USENET, even then, the same article was posted with different names within a few hours of each other. The funny thing is, I responded to one of them as a "fish," and never got any mail back trying to sell me anything. Either they got lots of customers and/or responses, or they don't have their act together. -------------------------------- Alan Deikman, ZNYX Corporation alan@znyx.com From list-managers-owner Wed Oct 11 10:13:24 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id KAA03532 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 11 Oct 1995 10:06:50 -0700 Received: from kitsune.swcp.com (swcp.com [198.59.115.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with ESMTP id KAA03525 for ; Wed, 11 Oct 1995 10:06:46 -0700 Received: (from lazlo@localhost) by kitsune.swcp.com (8.6.9/8.6.9) id LAA28636 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Wed, 11 Oct 1995 11:04:51 -0600 From: Lazlo Nibble Message-Id: <199510111704.LAA28636@kitsune.swcp.com> Subject: continuing Magazine Sub email spam coming through ixc.net To: list-managers@greatcircle.com (lm) Date: Wed, 11 Oct 1995 11:04:50 -0600 (MDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 758 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > I first saw this about a month ago on USENET, even then, the same article > was posted with different names within a few hours of each other. The > funny thing is, I responded to one of them as a "fish," and never got any > mail back trying to sell me anything. Either they got lots of customers > and/or responses, or they don't have their act together. Or it's not really an advertisement at all, but an attempt to bring grief to all the people allegedly "responsible" for the message. If someone wanted to harrass a company that does a lot of business through its fax line, spamming the net with a "respond this this fax number for more information" message would be a great way to do it. -- ::: Lazlo (lazlo@swcp.com; http://www.swcp.com/lazlo) From list-managers-owner Wed Oct 11 11:30:29 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id LAA05053 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 11 Oct 1995 11:27:18 -0700 Received: from garlic.com (garlic.com [165.227.35.130]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with SMTP id LAA05044 for ; Wed, 11 Oct 1995 11:27:14 -0700 Received: by garlic.com (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA44995; Wed, 11 Oct 1995 11:24:48 -0700 Date: Wed, 11 Oct 1995 11:24:42 -0700 (PDT) From: Eric Hilding X-Sender: eric@garlic.com To: "Stephen R. van den Berg" Cc: procmail@Informatik.RWTH-Aachen.DE, SmartList@Informatik.RWTH-Aachen.DE, list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Mystery Mailing In-Reply-To: <199510111613.RAA18930@hera.cuci.nl> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Wed, 11 Oct 1995, Stephen R. van den Berg wrote: > Jon Lewis wrote: > >Can anything be done at the list server system to track where this came > >from? > > I've already tried to track it down. It seems to emanate from a machine > (most likely a PC which is turned off currently) called pm1-62.ixc.net which > is using the mailer at cornell.edu to distribute the message. > However, perhaps in a feeble attempt to throw us off, the message ID > appears to be generated on ppp34.ingress.com (a dialup line, I presume). > > > I've received at least half a dozen copies from one other mailing > >list that they seem to be hitting daily. I recently met the head of the Silicon Valley Hi-Tech Computer Crimes Division of the FBI at a neighboring Rotary Club meeting after his speech. They are apparently very involved with Internet related fraud, etc. I'm not sure if this "Mystery Mailing" qualifies as some type of crime, but feel this *is* the kind of "anonymous" crap which needs to be dealt with, or at least looked into/investigated further. If you can forward me *any* point of origin evidence, I will personally see to it that the information is routed to this special FBI unit. Regards, Eric Hilding eric@garlic.com Not to worry...I gargled *before* sending this! eric@hilding.com From list-managers-owner Wed Oct 11 13:46:42 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id NAA09298 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 11 Oct 1995 13:32:08 -0700 Received: from garlic.com (garlic.com [165.227.35.130]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with SMTP id NAA09291 for ; Wed, 11 Oct 1995 13:32:05 -0700 Received: by garlic.com (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA30407; Wed, 11 Oct 1995 13:29:33 -0700 Date: Wed, 11 Oct 1995 13:29:30 -0700 (PDT) From: Eric Hilding X-Sender: eric@garlic.com To: "Stephen R. van den Berg" Cc: procmail@Informatik.RWTH-Aachen.DE, SmartList@Informatik.RWTH-Aachen.DE, list-managers@GreatCircle.COM, rbrent@garlic.com, support@garlic.com, ntline@aol.com Subject: FBI has been notified! In-Reply-To: <199510111613.RAA18930@hera.cuci.nl> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Regarding the "Mystery Mailing", I put in a call to the local FBI people I had recently met, but they were not in. So...I contacted the FBI in New York and spoke with Mr. William Duff of the Computer & Fraud By Wire Division. I FAX'd him a copy of of the mailing and associated communication as evidence. Should you have any additional information to be contributed, Mr. Duff's phone and FAX numbers are noted below... please get it directly to him. ------ Date: October 11, 1995 To: William Duff Squad C-12 FBI Fraud By Wire Division Telephone: (212)335-2780 FAX: (212)335-2999 From: Eric R. Hilding Internet e-mail: eric@hilding.com Telephone: (408)842-2222 Subj: Possible Fraud By Wire Involving The Internet or Pornography Ring Front? Regarding our phone conversation, here is alleged "student" letter which appears to be a clever mass marketing letter currently blanketing a number of Internet mailing lists. As I mentioned to you, they people have gone to great lengths to keep their actual e-mail point-of-origin address obscured, and to eliminate the ability to reply directly via e-mail, or to make two-way voice contact. There is no voice telephone number listed in Staten Island for the alleged "Magazine Club Inquiry Center", and the (718)967-1144 FAX number is the only point of electronic (or wire) contact other than a Post Office Box. Since reference is made to obtaining certain "adult" materials, this could potentially be tied to some type of pornography ring. Due to the suspicious nature of the "disguised" source mailings, I hope you find this sufficient to warrant a immediate investigation of exactly what is going on here. Thank you for your consideration, and please let me know if this information has been helpful. Regards, Eric Hilding eric@hilding.com (via notebook computer internal FAX) w/exhibits EXHIBIT A - Anonymous/disguised mailing piece received EXHIBT B - Communication regarding point-of-origin tracking ------ From list-managers-owner Wed Oct 11 14:43:35 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id OAA11322 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 11 Oct 1995 14:30:23 -0700 Received: from liverbird.liverpool.ac.uk (livbird.liv.ac.uk [138.253.31.12]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with ESMTP id OAA11315 for ; Wed, 11 Oct 1995 14:30:20 -0700 Received: from liverbird.liverpool.ac.uk by liverbird.liverpool.ac.uk via Local channel id <26310-0@liverbird.liverpool.ac.uk>; Wed, 11 Oct 1995 22:27:56 +0100 Subject: Re: Rogue Systems To: info-labview-request@pica.army.mil (Info-LabVIEW List Maintainer) Date: Wed, 11 Oct 1995 22:27:54 +0100 (BST) Cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com In-Reply-To: <9510100903.aa27680@fsm-1.pica.army.mil> from "Info-LabVIEW List Maintainer" at Oct 10, 95 09:03:50 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 ME7] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 584 From: Alan Thew Message-ID: <"liverbird.li:263120:951011212758"@liverbird.liverpool.ac.uk> Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk In the last mail, Info-LabVIEW List Maintainer wrote: > > >If anyone's compiling a list, I'd really love to get a mob with torches and > >pitchforks over to Demon in the UK, to teach them what the "Precedence: bulk" > >header means . . . > > Huh? It means nothing. (Unless you know about an RFC I don't) > Demon run MMDF which does not take any notice of Precedence: headers as they will probably be keen to tell you... :-) -- Alan Thew alan.thew@liv.ac.uk ...!uknet!liv!alan.thew Tel: +44 151 794-4497 University of Liverpool, Computing Services Fax: +44 151 794-4442 From list-managers-owner Wed Oct 11 15:39:14 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id PAA13124 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 11 Oct 1995 15:22:40 -0700 Received: from rip.psg.com (rip.psg.com [147.28.0.39]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with SMTP id PAA13117 for ; Wed, 11 Oct 1995 15:22:37 -0700 Received: by rip.psg.com (Smail3.1.29.1 #1) id m0t39VO-00031sC; Wed, 11 Oct 95 15:20 PDT Message-Id: Date: Wed, 11 Oct 95 15:20 PDT From: randy@psg.com (Randy Bush) To: Eric Hilding Cc: "Stephen R. van den Berg" , procmail@Informatik.RWTH-Aachen.DE, SmartList@Informatik.RWTH-Aachen.DE, list-managers@GreatCircle.COM, postmaster@ixc.net, postmaster@ingress.com, webmaster@ixc.net, webmaster@ingress.com, rbrent@garlic.com, support@garlic.com Subject: Re: Professional Courtesy Advisement... References: <199510111613.RAA18930@hera.cuci.nl> Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk It's bad enough to get spam on the list, but the net.cop anti-spammers seem worse! From list-managers-owner Wed Oct 11 17:00:35 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id QAA16232 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 11 Oct 1995 16:55:16 -0700 Received: from UUCP-GW.CC.UH.EDU (UUCP-GW.CC.UH.EDU [129.7.1.11]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with SMTP id QAA16224 for ; Wed, 11 Oct 1995 16:55:11 -0700 Received: from Taronga.COM by UUCP-GW.CC.UH.EDU with UUCP id AA23779 (5.67a/IDA-1.5 for list-managers@greatcircle.com); Wed, 11 Oct 1995 18:34:47 -0500 Received: (from arielle@localhost) by bonkers.taronga.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id SAA29127 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Wed, 11 Oct 1995 18:03:52 -0500 From: arielle@taronga.com (Stephanie da Silva) Message-Id: <199510112303.SAA29127@bonkers.taronga.com> Subject: Potential spam To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Date: Wed, 11 Oct 1995 18:03:52 -0500 (CDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Content-Length: 1293 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk My early warning detector just went off. This was also sent to my other mailing list request address, same "lists" command. Here tis: From trider@lexis-nexis.com Wed Oct 11 17:34:00 1995 Received: from lexis-nexis.com (uucp@localhost) by bonkers.taronga.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) with UUCP id RAA28367 for zer0-request@taronga.com; Wed, 11 Oct 1995 17:34:00 -0500 Received: from uuneo.neosoft.com by UUCP-GW.CC.UH.EDU with SMTP id AA23180 (5.67a/IDA-1.5 for ); Wed, 11 Oct 1995 17:17:39 -0500 Received: (from mailbot@localhost) by uuneo.neosoft.com (8.6.10/8.6.10) id RAA08811 for ; Wed, 11 Oct 1995 17:16:49 -0500 Received: from unknown(138.12.96.137) by uuneo.neosoft.com via smap (V1.3) id sma008681; Wed Oct 11 17:16:21 1995 Received: from meaddata.lexis-nexis.com ([138.12.96.71]) by lexis-nexis.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA11280; Wed, 11 Oct 95 18:15:18 EDT Received: from conan.meaddata.com by meaddata.lexis-nexis.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA17796; Tue, 10 Oct 95 14:19:56 EDT Received: by conan.meaddata.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA25892; Tue, 10 Oct 95 14:20:14 EDT Date: Tue, 10 Oct 95 14:20:14 EDT From: trider@lexis-nexis.com (Todd Rider) Message-Id: <9510101820.AA25892@conan.meaddata.com> To: ZER0-request@neosoft.com Status: OR lists From list-managers-owner Wed Oct 11 17:31:27 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id RAA17142 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 11 Oct 1995 17:16:27 -0700 Received: from Post-Office.UH.EDU (Post-Office.UH.EDU [129.7.1.20]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with ESMTP id RAA17135 for ; Wed, 11 Oct 1995 17:16:21 -0700 Received: from hpc.uh.edu (Sina.HPC.UH.EDU) by Post-Office.UH.EDU (PMDF V5.0-4 #8380) id <01HWBPIQJUT200004L@Post-Office.UH.EDU>; Wed, 11 Oct 1995 19:13:52 -0500 (CDT) Received: from sina.hpc.uh.edu (localhost) by hpc.uh.edu (5.x/SMI-SVR4) id AA06851; Wed, 11 Oct 1995 19:10:07 -0500 Date: Wed, 11 Oct 1995 19:10:07 -0500 From: Jason L Tibbitts III Subject: Re: Rogue Systems In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 11 Oct 1995 22:27:54 +0100 (BST)" To: Alan.Thew@liverbird.liverpool.ac.uk Cc: info-labview-request@pica.army.mil, list-managers@greatcircle.com Reply-to: tibbs@UH.EDU Message-id: <9510120010.AA06851@hpc.uh.edu> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mew beta version 0.98 on Emacs 19.28.1 Content-type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: <"liverbird.li:263120:951011212758"@liverbird.liverpool.ac.uk> Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >>>>> "AT" == Alan Thew writes: AT> Demon run MMDF which does not take any notice of Precedence: headers as AT> they will probably be keen to tell you... :-) But MMDF does understand the Priority: header; having Priority: non-urgent seems to have eliminated some of the more annoying notifications from them. --- Jason L. Tibbitts III - tibbs@uh.edu - 713/743-8684 - 221SR1 System Manager: Texas Center for Advanced Molecular Computation 1994 PC800 "Kuroneko" DoD# 1723 From list-managers-owner Wed Oct 11 17:43:13 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id RAA17712 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 11 Oct 1995 17:34:05 -0700 Received: from chinacat.unicom.com (chinacat.unicom.com [192.108.105.34]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with ESMTP id RAA17704 for ; Wed, 11 Oct 1995 17:33:59 -0700 Received: (from chip@localhost) by chinacat.unicom.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id TAA06703; Wed, 11 Oct 1995 19:31:39 -0500 (CDT) From: Chip Rosenthal Message-Id: <199510120031.TAA06703@chinacat.unicom.com> Subject: Re: Potential spam To: arielle@taronga.com (Stephanie da Silva) Date: Wed, 11 Oct 1995 19:31:37 -0500 (CDT) Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: <199510112303.SAA29127@bonkers.taronga.com> from "Stephanie da Silva" at Oct 11, 1995 06:03:52 PM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL0a8] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Stephanie da Silva writes: > My early warning detector just went off. This was also sent to my > other mailing list request address, same "lists" command. Seen here too (at two -request addresses). -- Chip Rosenthal I won't represent the US in the Summer Olympics. Unicom Systems Development - http://www.unicom.com/john-hiatt/ PGP key: http://www.unicom.com/personal/chip.html From list-managers-owner Wed Oct 11 18:00:30 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id RAA18290 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 11 Oct 1995 17:49:30 -0700 Received: from tango.rahul.net (tango.rahul.net [192.160.13.5]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with SMTP id RAA18276 for ; Wed, 11 Oct 1995 17:49:26 -0700 Received: from bolero.rahul.net by tango.rahul.net with SMTP id AA28365 (5.67b8/IDA-1.5 for ); Wed, 11 Oct 1995 17:47:22 -0700 Received: from foxtrot.rahul.net by bolero.rahul.net with SMTP id AA27426 (5.67b8/IDA-1.5); Wed, 11 Oct 1995 17:47:21 -0700 From: Steve Portigal Received: by foxtrot.rahul.net (5.67b8/jive-a2i-1.0) id AA13768; Wed, 11 Oct 1995 17:47:03 -0700 Message-Id: <199510120047.AA13768@foxtrot.rahul.net> Subject: Re: Potential spam To: arielle@taronga.com (Stephanie da Silva) Date: Wed, 11 Oct 1995 17:47:03 -0700 (PDT) Cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com In-Reply-To: <199510112303.SAA29127@bonkers.taronga.com> from "Stephanie da Silva" at Oct 11, 95 06:03:52 pm Organization: GVO - Interface Design Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 143 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk 99% sure I got the same thing today. -- | steve portigal G V O | user interface dude | culturally aware interface design From list-managers-owner Wed Oct 11 18:08:43 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id RAA18369 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 11 Oct 1995 17:51:07 -0700 Received: from mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (mycroft.greatcircle.com [198.102.244.35]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with ESMTP id RAA18362 for ; Wed, 11 Oct 1995 17:51:04 -0700 Received: from netcomsv.netcom.com by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.10/SMI-4.1/Brent-950602) id RAA05845; Wed, 11 Oct 1995 17:41:56 -0700 Received: from znyx.com by netcomsv.netcom.com with SMTP (8.6.12/SMI-4.1) id RAA11922; Wed, 11 Oct 1995 17:34:58 -0700 Received: from alan.znyx.com by znyx.com (5.65/1.35) id AA15134; Wed, 11 Oct 95 17:23:13 -0700 Date: Wed, 11 Oct 95 17:23:13 -0700 Message-Id: <9510120023.AA15134@znyx.com> X-Sender: alan@znyx.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: list-managers@greatcircle.com From: alan@znyx.com (Alan Deikman) Subject: Re: Potential spam Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Woah! I just got one, too! Stephanie wrote: >My early warning detector just went off. This was also sent to my >other mailing list request address, same "lists" command. I got the following header. It looks like mine was send almost exactly an hour later. Isn't lexis a law library data base? >Received: by znyx.com (5.65/1.35) > id AA14533; Wed, 11 Oct 95 15:28:45 -0700 >Date: Wed, 11 Oct 95 15:28:45 -0700 >X-Envelope-From: trider@lexis-nexis.com Wed Oct 11 15:28:06 1995 >Received: from firewall.meaddata.com by znyx.com (5.65/1.35) > id AA14506; Wed, 11 Oct 95 15:28:06 -0700 >Received: from meaddata.lexis-nexis.com ([138.12.96.71]) by lexis-nexis.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) > id AA16380; Wed, 11 Oct 95 18:39:58 EDT >Received: from conan.meaddata.com by meaddata.lexis-nexis.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) > id AA25252; Tue, 10 Oct 95 15:20:05 EDT >Received: by conan.meaddata.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) > id AA01782; Tue, 10 Oct 95 15:20:22 EDT >Old-Date: Tue, 10 Oct 95 15:20:22 EDT >From: trider@lexis-nexis.com (Todd Rider) >Message-Id: <9510101920.AA01782@conan.meaddata.com> >To: pci-sig-request@znyx.com >Subject: >X-Diagnostic: Unprocessed >X-Envelope-To: pci-sig-request > >lists > -------------------------------- Alan Deikman, ZNYX Corporation alan@znyx.com From list-managers-owner Wed Oct 11 18:13:13 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id SAA18976 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 11 Oct 1995 18:03:54 -0700 Received: from wilma.cs.utk.edu (WILMA.CS.UTK.EDU [128.169.94.141]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with ESMTP id SAA18966 for ; Wed, 11 Oct 1995 18:03:51 -0700 Received: from LOCALHOST by wilma.cs.utk.edu with SMTP (cf v2.11c-UTK) id VAA09785; Wed, 11 Oct 1995 21:01:40 -0400 Message-Id: <199510120101.VAA09785@wilma.cs.utk.edu> X-URI: http://www.cs.utk.edu/~moore/ From: Keith Moore To: arielle@taronga.com (Stephanie da Silva) cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com, moore@cs.utk.edu Subject: Re: Potential spam In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 11 Oct 1995 18:03:52 CDT." <199510112303.SAA29127@bonkers.taronga.com> Date: Wed, 11 Oct 1995 21:01:33 -0400 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk The same person was asking for my lists also. (mind you, my mailing lists are run manually, so anyone asking for "lists" is automatically suspect) the fact that he's from lexis-nexis also looks suspicious, since these guys make a living indexing and selling information that should be free to everyone. he might more interested in reselling list traffic ("scamming"? "skimming"?) than in spamming. should he be warned? Keith Moore > From: arielle@taronga.com (Stephanie da Silva) > Subject: Potential spam > To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM > Date: Wed, 11 Oct 1995 18:03:52 -0500 (CDT) > > My early warning detector just went off. This was also sent to my > other mailing list request address, same "lists" command. > > Here tis: > > > From trider@lexis-nexis.com Wed Oct 11 17:34:00 1995 > Received: from lexis-nexis.com (uucp@localhost) by bonkers.taronga.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) with UUCP id RAA28367 for zer0-request@taronga.com; Wed, 11 Oct 1995 17:34:00 -0500 > Received: from uuneo.neosoft.com by UUCP-GW.CC.UH.EDU with SMTP id AA23180 > (5.67a/IDA-1.5 for ); Wed, 11 Oct 1995 17:17:39 -0500 > Received: (from mailbot@localhost) by uuneo.neosoft.com (8.6.10/8.6.10) id RAA08811 for ; Wed, 11 Oct 1995 17:16:49 -0500 > Received: from unknown(138.12.96.137) by uuneo.neosoft.com via smap (V1.3) > id sma008681; Wed Oct 11 17:16:21 1995 > Received: from meaddata.lexis-nexis.com ([138.12.96.71]) by lexis-nexis.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) > id AA11280; Wed, 11 Oct 95 18:15:18 EDT > Received: from conan.meaddata.com by meaddata.lexis-nexis.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) > id AA17796; Tue, 10 Oct 95 14:19:56 EDT > Received: by conan.meaddata.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) > id AA25892; Tue, 10 Oct 95 14:20:14 EDT > Date: Tue, 10 Oct 95 14:20:14 EDT > From: trider@lexis-nexis.com (Todd Rider) > Message-Id: <9510101820.AA25892@conan.meaddata.com> > To: ZER0-request@neosoft.com > Status: OR > > lists > > From list-managers-owner Wed Oct 11 18:43:13 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id SAA20034 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 11 Oct 1995 18:35:19 -0700 Received: from zork.tiac.net (zork.tiac.net [199.0.65.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with ESMTP id SAA20027 for ; Wed, 11 Oct 1995 18:35:15 -0700 Received: from smoe.org (jane.smoe.org [199.0.65.144]) by zork.tiac.net (8.6.9/8.6.6.Beta9) with SMTP id VAA07917; Wed, 11 Oct 1995 21:34:06 -0400 Received: by smoe.org (4.1/SMI-4.1-hack1) id AA10155; Wed, 11 Oct 95 21:34:44 EDT From: jeffw@smoe.org (Jeff Wasilko) Message-Id: <9510120134.AA10155@smoe.org> Subject: your recent 'lists' request To: trider@lexis-nexis.com Date: Wed, 11 Oct 1995 21:34:44 -0400 (EDT) Cc: postmaster@lexis-nexis.com, list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Organization: Jeff's Personal System X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL22] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 871 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I noticed your recent 'lists' request of my majordomo server: Oct 10 14:35:35 jane majordomo[2968] {trider@lexis-nexis.com (Todd Rider)} lists Oct 11 14:09:36 jane majordomo[8555] {trider@lexis-nexis.com (Todd Rider)} lists Given the recent trend of mailing list spammage, we list-owners are concerned about potential abuse. Quite a few other list-owners have noticed your requests to their list servers as well, so it appears as if you are making an organized effort to build a database of mailing lists. Please note that I have cc'd this mail to the List Managers mailing list. I am sure that an explanation from you (mailed to the List Managers list at list-managers@GreatCircle.COM) would set our minds to ease. -Jeff -- Jeff @ Home.... "I'll be youah race-cah drivah..." -- Jewel "Pahrk youah race-cah in Havahad Yahd?" -- Anja [smoe] From list-managers-owner Wed Oct 11 19:43:13 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id TAA21802 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 11 Oct 1995 19:41:38 -0700 Received: from sgi.sgi.com (SGI.COM [192.48.153.1]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with ESMTP id TAA21787 for ; Wed, 11 Oct 1995 19:41:34 -0700 Received: from lunch.engr.sgi.com by sgi.sgi.com via ESMTP (950405.SGI.8.6.12/910110.SGI) id TAA19881; Wed, 11 Oct 1995 19:39:39 -0700 Received: by lunch.engr.sgi.com (950511.SGI.8.6.12.PATCH526/940406.SGI.AUTO) id TAA24658; Wed, 11 Oct 1995 19:39:38 -0700 From: close@lunch.engr.sgi.com (Diane Barlow Close) Message-Id: <199510120239.TAA24658@lunch.engr.sgi.com> Subject: Re: your recent 'lists' request To: jeffw@smoe.org (Jeff Wasilko) Date: Wed, 11 Oct 1995 19:39:37 -0700 (PDT) Cc: trider@lexis-nexis.com, list-managers@GreatCircle.com In-Reply-To: <9510120134.AA10155@smoe.org> from "Jeff Wasilko" at Oct 11, 1995 09:34:44 PM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL0a8] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Jeff Wasilko wrote: > I noticed your recent 'lists' request of my majordomo server: > > Oct 10 14:35:35 jane majordomo[2968] {trider@lexis-nexis.com (Todd Rider)} lists > Oct 11 14:09:36 jane majordomo[8555] {trider@lexis-nexis.com (Todd Rider)} lists I got e-mail from Mr. Rider back in September saying that he was setting up an automatic query function for his web page (which would list all current lists run by majordomos and listserves). I wrote back to tell him that I did NOT want my lists listed, and disabled the lists command shortly after that. He said he'd remove my lists asap and wouldn't query my majordomo again. I left the "lists" command disabled anyway, because of way too much abuse, and I see that Mr. Rider did indeed send another "lists" query my way, twice, today (October 11th). Jeff, I'd suggest you disable your lists command and cause it to say something like this instead: **** The lists command has been disabled due to abuse. If you **** have a legitimate need for this information, please contact **** owner-majordomo@whatever.machine.etc > so it appears as if you are making an organized effort to build a > database of mailing lists. That's exactly what he's doing! -- Diane Close close@lunch.engr.sgi.com I'm at lunch all day. :-) From list-managers-owner Wed Oct 11 21:30:07 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id VAA24763 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 11 Oct 1995 21:23:29 -0700 Received: from access.netaxs.com (access.netaxs.com [198.69.186.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with ESMTP id VAA24756 for ; Wed, 11 Oct 1995 21:23:26 -0700 Received: from unix3.netaxs.com (jgreshes@unix3.netaxs.com [198.69.186.5]) by access.netaxs.com (8.6.12/8.6.11) with ESMTP id AAA08367 for ; Thu, 12 Oct 1995 00:21:33 -0400 Received: (jgreshes@localhost) by unix3.netaxs.com (8.6.12/8.6.9) id AAA18965; Thu, 12 Oct 1995 00:21:26 -0400 Date: Thu, 12 Oct 1995 00:21:25 -0400 (EDT) From: Jason and the tiny curly girl cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: your recent 'lists' request In-Reply-To: <199510120239.TAA24658@lunch.engr.sgi.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > > Jeff, I'd suggest you disable your lists command and cause it to say > something like this instead: > > **** The lists command has been disabled due to abuse. If you > **** have a legitimate need for this information, please contact > **** owner-majordomo@whatever.machine.etc > > > so it appears as if you are making an organized effort to build a > > database of mailing lists. > > That's exactly what he's doing! I'm still trying to figure out exactly what the evil is here. There are webcrawlers, bots, lyoses, etc. crawling around extracting public data and indexing from the web. So far noone has pointed out anything this guy has done that could be considered an intrusion. He's cataloging public information. If he was lying about his identity or purposes to join a private list and find out what its subject matter and/or members were, I'd be quite concerned and offended. If he was building catalogs of list members (which most servers will let you do unless you select otherwise) to sell to advertisers, again I would be extremely concerned. As for a concerted effort to catalog lists, I can think of far too many legitimate purposes for doing this to get worked up about it...which leads me to wonder exactly what you would consider legitimate: 1) I guess no problem with someone you sought out subbing to your lists. 2) Maybe you would be okay with someone telling someone they know about one of your lists. 3) Mentioning one of your lists on another list to so that other interested people could join would, I guess, be an intrusion. 4) Someone going out and searching for lists involving a subject he/she is interested in would be offensive. 5) Someone going out and building a catalog to facilitate 4) would offend to the core. 6) Someone doing 5) and charging 4) would be cause for vengence. The fact is that this person is cataloging information held out to the public. The server operator chose to make a list of that server's lists available. The listowner chooses whether or not to make any information about that list public. (Without subject matter info being available, all he has is an address.) If you want to control who is on the list, you close it and only let in the people you want. If the guy starts trying to break through security after you've disabled lists and made list info unavailable, then he an asshole and do with him what you will. Again, let me say that none of this would apply if the person was sneaking around trying to find resources that aren't held out to the public. And I can perfectly understand someone having objections to how that information was used. Its just that no one has written me asking if they could please put a jump to or catalog one of my web pages, and I don't see the difference when someone is just querying a different server. I just read in PC Magazine that someone is selling CD-ROM with lycos' database on it. Stuff of mine is in lycos. In fact, information on my lists is in lycos. I'm not angry. Jason From list-managers-owner Wed Oct 11 21:44:01 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id VAA25312 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 11 Oct 1995 21:38:42 -0700 Received: from garlic.com (garlic.com [165.227.35.130]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with SMTP id OAA11200 for ; Wed, 11 Oct 1995 14:27:35 -0700 Received: by garlic.com (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA32073; Wed, 11 Oct 1995 14:24:44 -0700 Date: Wed, 11 Oct 1995 14:24:42 -0700 (PDT) From: Eric Hilding X-Sender: eric@garlic.com To: "Stephen R. van den Berg" Cc: procmail@Informatik.RWTH-Aachen.DE, SmartList@Informatik.RWTH-Aachen.DE, list-managers@GreatCircle.COM, postmaster@ixc.net, postmaster@ingress.com, webmaster@ixc.net, webmaster@ingress.com, rbrent@garlic.com, support@garlic.com Subject: Professional Courtesy Advisement... In-Reply-To: <199510111613.RAA18930@hera.cuci.nl> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk To: postmaster@ixc.net postmaster@ingress.com webmaster@ixc.net webmaster@ingress.com As a Professional Courtesy, I am hereby advising you that you may be contacted by the FBI regarding a suspicious, somewhat "clandestine" mailing which appears to possibly have involved one of the machines or mailers on your system. The information has already been supplied to the FBI Computer & Fraud By Wire Division in New York. You may wish to launch an immediate investigation of your own, and to take proactive efforts to locate the person(s) responsible for blanketing various Internet mailing lists with an Anonymous ("disguised") point-of origin marketing letter. This is precisely the type of crap which must be stopped *NOW* [extreme emphasis added]. It would also appear that perhaps the alleged "magazine" organization involved may be operating as a front for a pornography ring. At least the cleverly worded marketing letter would seem to suggest this, IMHO. To assist you in your internal audit, here is a copy of a header from the procmail mailing list also submitted as evidence to the FBI: ------ Subject: Evidence Most notably, originating host: 198.70.48.62 (pm1-62.ixc.net) Possibly involved: 205.230.67.34 (ppp34.ingress.com) >From For.a.prompter.reply.please.fax@If.you.do.not.have.a.fax.smail.is.ok Wed Oct 11 13:49:44 1995 >Received: from cornell.edu (cornell.edu [132.236.56.6]) by Campino.Informatik.RWTH-Aachen.DE (RBI-Z-4/8.6.12) > with ESMTP id NAA05643; Wed, 11 Oct 1995 13:49:31 +0100 >Received: from [198.70.48.62] (pm1-62.ixc.net [198.70.48.62]) by cornell.edu (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id EAA02068; Wed, 11 Oct 1995 04:28:53 -0400 >X-Sender: For.a.prompter.reply.please.fax@If.you.do.not.have.a.fax.smail.is.ok (Unverified) >Message-Id: >Mime-Version: 1.0 >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >Date: Wed, 11 Oct 1995 05:03:27 -0500 >To: For.a.prompter.reply.please.fax@If.you.do.not.have.a.fax.smail.is.ok >From: For.a.prompter.reply.please.fax@If.you.do.not.have.a.fax.smail.is.ok (You will > get a quick reply via email within 1 business day of receipt of the info > request form below.) >Subject: *new* reply info: ===>> FREE 1 yr. Magazine Sub sent worldwide- 300+ Popular USA > Titles > >----> NOTE: if you previously replied via email to this message, filling >in the form completely, and it has been more than 48 hrs. since you sent it >in and still have not received a reply, please reply again, to the FAX OR >SMAIL ADDRESS shown below. They will then send you their FREE catalogue by >email, along with complete info on how their club works. They are very >sorry if you have not yet received a reply and would appreciate your >sending it again to their fax or smail address. Thank you. <----- > The alleged "student" involved used the name Janet Dove, which to me, appears to be simply an alias. Again, you may be contacted soon by Mr. William Duff or other agents of the FBI in New York. If you have any questions, feel free to drop me an e-mail or call Mr. Duff directly at the FBI (212)335-2780. I had to FAX the info...apparently they are not yet on-line (or won't admit to it :-) I hope you will appreciate this Professional Courtesy Advisement, and trust you will cooperate fully in helping find who is responsible for this horric abuse of the Internet (and, quite suspiciously, perhaps much more than appears on the surface). Cordially, Eric Hilding eric@hilding.com From list-managers-owner Wed Oct 11 22:30:01 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id WAA26011 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 11 Oct 1995 22:20:25 -0700 Received: from torii.triple-i.com (torii.triple-i.com [192.94.150.1]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with ESMTP id WAA26004 for ; Wed, 11 Oct 1995 22:20:22 -0700 Received: from siesta (siesta+.triple-i.com [192.94.150.7]) by torii.triple-i.com (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id WAA04255; Wed, 11 Oct 1995 22:18:15 -0700 Received: from pak by siesta (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA16275; Wed, 11 Oct 95 22:18:13 PDT From: jeffw@triple-i.com (Jeff Wasilko) Message-Id: <9510120518.AA16275@siesta> Subject: Re: your recent 'lists' request To: jgreshes@netaxs.com (Jason and the tiny curly girl) Date: Wed, 11 Oct 1995 22:18:12 -0700 (PDT) Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: from "Jason and the tiny curly girl" at Oct 12, 95 00:21:25 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL22] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 1122 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Jason and the tiny curly girl writes: > I'm still trying to figure out exactly what the evil is here. There are > webcrawlers, bots, lyoses, etc. crawling around extracting public data > and indexing from the web. So far noone has pointed out anything this > guy has done that could be considered an intrusion. He's cataloging > public information. If he was lying about his identity or purposes to The difference between mail and the web is that folks have taken to abusing mailing lists lately. Do you recall Olga? trider@lexis-nexis.com (Todd Rider) has not made a statement as to what his motives are. Contrast this to the way Architext handled their request to index list content. They didn't just subscribe--they requested the list owner's permission first. > join a private list and find out what its subject matter and/or members > were, I'd be quite concerned and offended. If he was building catalogs > of list members (which most servers will let you do unless you select > otherwise) to sell to advertisers, again I would be extremely concerned. Again, we don't know what their motives are. From list-managers-owner Wed Oct 11 23:00:11 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id WAA26255 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 11 Oct 1995 22:43:51 -0700 Received: from acg60.wfunet.wfu.edu (acg60.wfunet.wfu.edu [152.17.1.31]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with ESMTP id WAA26248 for ; Wed, 11 Oct 1995 22:43:48 -0700 Received: from skywalker.phy.wfu.edu (skywalker.phy.wfu.edu [152.17.30.103]) by acg60.wfunet.wfu.edu (8.6.10/8.6.10) with SMTP id BAA22040; Thu, 12 Oct 1995 01:43:15 -0400 Received: from bh.mindspring.com by skywalker.phy.wfu.edu; (5.65/1.1.8.2/26Jan95-1239PM) id AA21652; Thu, 12 Oct 1995 01:39:29 -0400 Received: (from bh@localhost) by hq.stargame.org (8.6.12/8.6.9) id AAA02599; Wed, 11 Oct 1995 00:47:12 -0400 Date: Wed, 11 Oct 1995 00:47:11 -0400 (EDT) From: Brian Hartsfield To: Jason and the tiny curly girl Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: your recent 'lists' request In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I think that the point is that there have been lots of people cataloging mailing lists for purposes of advertising and so forth. There is no way of knowing right now what this person's motives are, but since he is requesting lists at several sites, and after the recent abuses, this is triggering a "red flag" with many people. The next step is now to get in contact with this person and see what his motives are. Like I said, at this point we don't know if he is doing anything wrong or not, but his actions have been enough to trigger a "red flag" and for people to want to know what his motives are. Brian From list-managers-owner Wed Oct 11 23:02:19 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id WAA26357 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 11 Oct 1995 22:56:30 -0700 Received: from kitsune.swcp.com (kitsune.swcp.com [198.59.115.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with ESMTP id WAA26350 for ; Wed, 11 Oct 1995 22:56:27 -0700 Received: (from lazlo@localhost) by kitsune.swcp.com (8.6.9/8.6.9) id XAA00972 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Wed, 11 Oct 1995 23:54:27 -0600 From: Lazlo Nibble Message-Id: <199510120554.XAA00972@kitsune.swcp.com> Subject: Re: your recent 'lists' request To: list-managers@greatcircle.com (lm) Date: Wed, 11 Oct 1995 23:54:26 -0600 (MDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 1458 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > I'm still trying to figure out exactly what the evil is here. A couple of reasons why some of us are suspicious of this kind of knob-twisting: * Such mass-mailed inquiries are often a prelude to list spams. Anyone who subscribes to this mailing list should be familiar with the problem. * People in the book industry (especially "Internet Phonebook" editors) have a history of presenting this information in ways that cause trouble for list owners -- listing the post-to-the-list address as the list contact address, etc. I think simple politeness demands that people who are compiling collections of listname addresses make some kind of attempt to contact the list owners for permission to include their lists -- or at least to make sure they have accurate descriptions. I will *happily* hand over information about my lists to anyone who makes an attempt to make sure that their collection is accurate and up-to-date. > As for a concerted effort to catalog lists, I can think of far too many > legitimate purposes for doing this to get worked up about it. Anyone can drive by my house and see the street address numbers, and there are plenty of legitimate reasons why those numbers should be visible...but if I see someone driving down my street and taking down notes about each house as they go, I reserve the right to wonder what the hell they're doing. -- ::: Lazlo (lazlo@swcp.com; http://www.swcp.com/lazlo) From list-managers-owner Wed Oct 11 23:43:21 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id XAA27092 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 11 Oct 1995 23:36:56 -0700 Received: from vger.tripcom.com (vger.tripcom.com [198.5.220.33]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with ESMTP id XAA27084 for ; Wed, 11 Oct 1995 23:36:53 -0700 Received: (from adam@localhost) by vger.tripcom.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id BAA23404 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Thu, 12 Oct 1995 01:35:01 -0500 From: Adam Horwitz Message-Id: <199510120635.BAA23404@vger.tripcom.com> Subject: Announcing new list To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Date: Thu, 12 Oct 1995 01:35:00 -0500 (CDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Content-Length: 190 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Is there a newsgroup or other place appropriate for announcing a new mailing list? TIA! -- Adam Horwitz (708) 778-9531 Tripcom Systems Inc. adam@tripcom.com From list-managers-owner Thu Oct 12 00:00:07 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id XAA27377 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 11 Oct 1995 23:55:42 -0700 Received: from sacusr.mp.usbr.gov (sacusr.mp.usbr.gov [140.214.12.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with SMTP id XAA27370 for ; Wed, 11 Oct 1995 23:55:38 -0700 Received: by sacto.mp.usbr.gov (MX V4.1 VAX) id 15; Wed, 11 Oct 1995 23:53:34 PDT Date: Wed, 11 Oct 1995 23:53:32 PDT From: "Henry W. Miller" To: PMDAtropos@aol.com CC: list-managers@greatcircle.com, henrym@sacto.mp.usbr.gov Message-ID: <00997BBD.3C6292B0.15@sacto.mp.usbr.gov> Subject: Re: Full mailboxes Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > From: MX%"PMDAtropos@aol.com" 9-OCT-1995 20:43:38.26 > Subj: Re: Full mailboxes David, > In a message dated 95-10-08 03:03:06 EDT, henrym@sacto.mp.usbr.gov (Henry W. > Miller) writes: > > >I know that postmaster of AOL monitors this list; I'm not > >sure about CIS, though. I run several lists, and frequently get > >messages bounced back from AOL and CIS stating that the user's > >mailbox is full and to try again later. Why? It occurs to me > >that both providers have gigabytes, maybe terabytes of disk storage. > >To bounce mail back to the sender is really uncalled for. Surely there > >has to be a better way to deal with this. > > Each AOL member is permitted 550 pieces of mail on our mail host at any given > time. At five screen names per account, 3.5 million accounts, that's as many > as 9,625,000,000 pieces of mail live on the service at any given time. Each > piece of mail can be up to 32k, making storate as much as 308,000,000,000k - > not counting file attachments, which I've personally sent as large as 24MB. > Thank you for the information here. > Obviously, this is an extreme case -- reality is probably more like about > four million mailboxes with an average of 300 pieces of mail, each around 5k > in size. That's still 12,000,000,000 of space for e-mail alone, plus the > file system to keep it on, plus the software to manage it. > Extreme, yes. But it's safer in the long run to allow for expansion. > All in all, I'd think that up to 550MB of mail (inbound mail can be up to 1MB > in size), at 550 pieces, is pretty reasonable. AOL members can easily > download their entire mailbox contents using FlashSessions, freeing up space > on the AOL host system. Likewise, with 5 screen names per account, they can > easily divvy their mail load up into multiple screen names. IMO, if a > member's mailbox fills up it's their responsibility (and it demonstrates to > me as a list owner an unwillingness to commit to my lists. They get removed). > Both points taken. > If we had a significantly smaller member base, I could see increasing the > mailbox size -- and we may yet in the future, though I don't know for sure. > For the time being, though, I don't think the current limit is all that > unreasonable. > > -- > __ David B. O'Donnell (atropos@aol.net, PMDAtropos@aol.com) > \/ AOL Internet Feedback/Response/Information Team Manager > Tel. +1 703/448-8700 x3725 - FAX +1 703/883-1514 > Belief-L, GLB-News -Press -Discuss, SoftRevu List Owner/Editor > http://www.cais.com/atropos/ ---- "The spam stops here." Again, thanks for the explanation of AOL's rationale. -HWM From list-managers-owner Thu Oct 12 00:01:58 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id XAA27331 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 11 Oct 1995 23:54:15 -0700 Received: from cs.umass.edu (freya.cs.umass.edu [128.119.40.195]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with SMTP id XAA27324 for ; Wed, 11 Oct 1995 23:54:12 -0700 From: lmccarth@cs.umass.edu Received: from thor.cs.umass.edu by cs.umass.edu (5.65/Ultrix3.0-C) id AA28044; Thu, 12 Oct 1995 02:52:21 -0400 Received: (from lmccarth@localhost) by thor.cs.umass.edu (8.6.12/8.6.9) id CAA01299 for List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM; Thu, 12 Oct 1995 02:52:20 -0400 Message-Id: <199510120652.CAA01299@thor.cs.umass.edu> Subject: Re: FBI has been notified! To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Date: Thu, 12 Oct 1995 02:52:20 -0400 (EDT) Reply-To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: <199510120444.VAA25486@miles.greatcircle.com> from "list-managers-digest-owner@GreatCircle.COM" at Oct 11, 95 09:44:09 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 2255 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Eric Hilding writes: > To: William Duff > Squad C-12 > FBI Fraud By Wire Division [...] > Subj: Possible Fraud By Wire Involving The Internet or Pornography Ring Front? [...] > As I mentioned to you, they people have gone > to great lengths to keep their actual e-mail point-of-origin address > obscured, and to eliminate the ability to reply directly via e-mail, or > to make two-way voice contact. > > There is no voice telephone number listed in Staten Island for the alleged > "Magazine Club Inquiry Center", and the (718)967-1144 FAX number is the > only point of electronic (or wire) contact other than a Post Office Box. Your point being...? How do you figure this constitutes fraud ? > Since reference is made to obtaining certain "adult" materials, this could > potentially be tied to some type of pornography ring. Gotta love wild innuendo like that. In any case, so what ? Last time I checked, we in the U.S. still live in some semblance of a free society. Pornography is mostly legal in most states. Talking about "adult" materials, whatever they may be, is protected by the First Amendment. > Due to the suspicious > nature of the "disguised" source mailings, I hope you find this sufficient > to warrant a immediate investigation of exactly what is going on here. Ah, it's so refreshing to see someone encouraging the FBI to launch fishing expeditions against people possibly implicated in something possibly illegal that someone somewhere doesn't like. It pains me to say it, but people like you make the people who worry out loud about "jack-booted thugs" seem more and more reasonable every day. How about getting back to the _real_ issues here ? Some system somewhere sent your system some RFC-822s and you're upset about it. Either configure your system to deal with it, or convince the other system not to send you such messages in the future. Somewhere along the line, either somebody doesn't have an adequate appropriate-system-use policy from your POV, and you need to negotiate future interactions with them, or somebody's policy was violated and you should persuade them to enforce their policy better. -L. McCarthy , speaking at most for myself (as always) From list-managers-owner Thu Oct 12 01:00:05 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id AAA28707 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 12 Oct 1995 00:55:10 -0700 Received: from SEARN.SUNET.SE (searn.sunet.se [192.36.125.4]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with SMTP id AAA28695; Thu, 12 Oct 1995 00:55:05 -0700 Message-Id: <199510120755.AAA28695@miles.greatcircle.com> Received: from SEARN.SUNET.SE by SEARN.SUNET.SE (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 5184; Thu, 12 Oct 95 08:53:04 +0100 Received: from SEARN.SUNET.SE (NJE origin ERIC@SEARN) by SEARN.SUNET.SE (LMail V1.2b/1.8b) with RFC822 id 1560; Thu, 12 Oct 1995 08:53:04 +0100 Date: Thu, 12 Oct 1995 08:43:40 +0100 From: Eric Thomas Subject: Re: FBI has been notified! To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM, list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM, lmccarth@cs.umass.edu In-Reply-To: Message of Thu, 12 Oct 1995 02:52:20 -0400 (EDT) from list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Thu, 12 Oct 1995 02:52:20 -0400 (EDT) lmccarth@cs.umass.edu said: >> Since reference is made to obtaining certain "adult" materials, this >> could potentially be tied to some type of pornography ring. > >Gotta love wild innuendo like that. In any case, so what ? Last time I >checked, we in the U.S. still live in some semblance of a free society. >Pornography is mostly legal in most states. Talking about "adult" >materials, whatever they may be, is protected by the First Amendment. I suppose Eric Hilding needed a way to make the Feds take the bait. Unfortunately, since there isn't the beginning of a possible charge against the spammers (unless of course they DO run a child pornography ring, in which case they will be indicted independently of the spam), this is a complete waste of time and taxpayer money. This will also serve to discredit our cause in the Fed's eyes. Nobody likes to be sent on a wild goose chase. Whether we like it or not (and I certainly don't), there is currently no law against spam. If Internetters spent 10% of the energy they allocate to investigating/reporting/whining about spams lobbying their respective governments to extend telemarketing harrassment laws to the Internet, maybe we wouldn't be having this conversation. But, WHAT, REGULATE THE INTERNET? NO WAY! THE INTERNET IS AND REMAINS THE FREE FRONTIER! GET LOST YOU *** FASCIST! I WILL PERSONALLY CONTACT YOUR POSTMASTER AND THE POPE TO HAVE YOU EXCOMMUNICATED FOR EVEN SUGGESTING IT! Well, sometimes you have to make a choice. You can't have your cake and eat it. If Internetters don't want ANY regulation, they have to accept spam. And believe me, spam will only get worse. It costs $0.00 to send multiple spams anonymously with an AOL trial diskette. There are now companies that will post spams for the technically clueless for a fee. It is the most cost effective form of advertisement available and it's not going away as long as it remains legal. Eric From list-managers-owner Thu Oct 12 02:00:12 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id BAA29830 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 12 Oct 1995 01:44:49 -0700 Received: from andrew.cais.com (andrew.cais.com [199.0.216.215]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with ESMTP id BAA29823 for ; Thu, 12 Oct 1995 01:44:43 -0700 Received: from cais.cais.com (cais.com [199.0.216.4]) by andrew.cais.com (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id EAA16875; Thu, 12 Oct 1995 04:42:12 -0400 Date: Thu, 12 Oct 1995 04:42:12 -0400 (EDT) From: "J.D. Falk" X-Sender: jdfalk@cais.cais.com Reply-To: jdfalk@cais.com To: Randy Bush cc: Eric Hilding , "Stephen R. van den Berg" , procmail@Informatik.RWTH-Aachen.DE, SmartList@Informatik.RWTH-Aachen.DE, list-managers@GreatCircle.COM, postmaster@ixc.net, postmaster@ingress.com, webmaster@ixc.net, webmaster@ingress.com, rbrent@garlic.com, support@garlic.com Subject: Re: Professional Courtesy Advisement... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Organization: cyberNOTHING.org: Because nothing is cooler when it's cyber. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Wed, 11 Oct 1995, Randy Bush wrote: > It's bad enough to get spam on the list, but the net.cop anti-spammers seem > worse! By doing that, they're preventing future spam. For more information about this and other related concepts, please read the newsgroup news.admin.net-abuse.misc and/or the Net Abuse FAQ. Replies just to me, please. ---------========== J.D. Falk =========--------- | misc.news.internet.announce moderator......mnia-req@cybernothing.org | | misc.news.internet.announce submissions....mnia-sub@cybernothing.org | ----========== http://www.cybernothing.org/jdfalk/home.html ==========---- From list-managers-owner Thu Oct 12 02:43:14 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id CAA01017 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 12 Oct 1995 02:39:54 -0700 Received: from ifi.uio.no (ifi.uio.no [129.240.64.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with ESMTP id CAA01007 for ; Thu, 12 Oct 1995 02:39:48 -0700 Received: from mne.ifi.uio.no (1232@mne.ifi.uio.no [129.240.70.5]) by ifi.uio.no with ESMTP (8.6.11/ifi2.4) id ; Thu, 12 Oct 1995 10:37:49 +0100 From: Kjetil Torgrim Homme Received: (from kjetilho@localhost) by mne.ifi.uio.no ; Thu, 12 Oct 1995 10:37:47 +0100 Date: Thu, 12 Oct 1995 10:37:47 +0100 Message-Id: <199510120937.11001.mne.ifi.uio.no@ifi.uio.no> To: trider@lexis-nexis.com CC: dewy-fields-request@ifi.uio.no Cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com In-reply-to: <9510101833.AA27219@conan.meaddata.com> (trider@lexis-nexis.com) Subject: Re: lists Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk [Todd Rider] | lists Not long ago, you sent a similar query to another mailing list I run, and I responded thusly: | This is a manually run list, please use English to formulate your | query. You didn't seem interested enough to clarify. Are you trying to map the universe of mailing lists? You should be aware that most mailing list administrators (myself included) disapprove of having their lists in catalogues and registers without being asked for permission first. Those mailing lists which are public, are generally already listed in Stephanie da Silva's Publicly Available Mailing Lists list, and there is no reason for you to duplicate her efforts, especially since it not just yours, but also all the list administrators work in replying to you which is duplicated. Kjetil T. From list-managers-owner Thu Oct 12 04:30:20 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id EAA02779 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 12 Oct 1995 04:24:18 -0700 Received: from sacusr.mp.usbr.gov (sacusr.mp.usbr.gov [140.214.12.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with SMTP id EAA02772 for ; Thu, 12 Oct 1995 04:24:13 -0700 Received: by sacto.mp.usbr.gov (MX V4.1 VAX) id 6; Thu, 12 Oct 1995 04:22:05 PDT Date: Thu, 12 Oct 1995 04:22:02 PDT From: "Henry W. Miller" To: close@lunch.engr.sgi.com CC: list-managers@greatcircle.com, henrym@sacto.mp.usbr.gov Message-ID: <00997BE2.BEBC2C10.6@sacto.mp.usbr.gov> Subject: Re: your recent 'lists' request Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > From: MX%"close@lunch.engr.sgi.com" 11-OCT-1995 19:44:14.72 > Subj: Re: your recent 'lists' request > Jeff Wasilko wrote: > > I noticed your recent 'lists' request of my majordomo server: > > > > Oct 10 14:35:35 jane majordomo[2968] {trider@lexis-nexis.com (Todd Rider)} lists > > Oct 11 14:09:36 jane majordomo[8555] {trider@lexis-nexis.com (Todd Rider)} lists > > I got e-mail from Mr. Rider back in September saying that he was setting > up an automatic query function for his web page (which would list all > current lists run by majordomos and listserves). I wrote back to tell him > that I did NOT want my lists listed, and disabled the lists command > shortly after that. He said he'd remove my lists asap and wouldn't query > my majordomo again. I left the "lists" command disabled anyway, because > of way too much abuse, and I see that Mr. Rider did indeed send another > "lists" query my way, twice, today (October 11th). > > Jeff, I'd suggest you disable your lists command and cause it to say > something like this instead: > > **** The lists command has been disabled due to abuse. If you > **** have a legitimate need for this information, please contact > **** owner-majordomo@whatever.machine.etc > > > so it appears as if you are making an organized effort to build a > > database of mailing lists. > > That's exactly what he's doing! > -- > Diane Close > close@lunch.engr.sgi.com > I'm at lunch all day. :-) I would say so! He also hit tcp-ip-request@nic.ddn.mil which is now forwarded to sacto.mp.usbr.gov. Is he the "owner" of this lexis-nexis or whatever the hell it is domain? -HWM From list-managers-owner Thu Oct 12 05:30:21 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id FAA03644 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 12 Oct 1995 05:23:55 -0700 Received: from access.netaxs.com (access.netaxs.com [198.69.186.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with ESMTP id FAA03629 for ; Thu, 12 Oct 1995 05:23:49 -0700 Received: from unix3.netaxs.com (jgreshes@unix3.netaxs.com [198.69.186.5]) by access.netaxs.com (8.6.12/8.6.11) with ESMTP id IAA24808; Thu, 12 Oct 1995 08:21:48 -0400 Received: (jgreshes@localhost) by unix3.netaxs.com (8.6.12/8.6.9) id IAA29271; Thu, 12 Oct 1995 08:21:46 -0400 Date: Thu, 12 Oct 1995 08:21:45 -0400 (EDT) From: Jason and the tiny curly girl To: "Henry W. Miller" cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: your recent 'lists' request In-Reply-To: <00997BE2.BEBC2C10.6@sacto.mp.usbr.gov> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > > > I would say so! He also hit tcp-ip-request@nic.ddn.mil which > is now forwarded to sacto.mp.usbr.gov. > > Is he the "owner" of this lexis-nexis or whatever the hell it > is domain? > > -HWM > lexis-nexis is one of the largest providers of online text from magazines, newspapers, law journals and reporters, etc. If he owned lexis, Todd would be sunning in Barbados instead of sending out lists commands. :) And I appologize for not considering that he could be a possible future spammer/list abuser. B/c of the source, I assumed that although he might be obnoxious, be wouldn't be doing anything that would be costing him his job or mead a few hundred thousand customers. Obviously, though, there is no way to be certain if he is a mead employee or working from a valid account. Jason From list-managers-owner Thu Oct 12 05:43:35 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id FAA04084 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 12 Oct 1995 05:36:57 -0700 Received: from ecsvax.uncecs.edu (ecsvax.uncecs.edu [152.4.1.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with SMTP id FAA04071; Thu, 12 Oct 1995 05:36:53 -0700 Received: by ecsvax.uncecs.edu (5.65/tas-gen/may94) id AA01728; Thu, 12 Oct 1995 08:35:21 -0400 From: "Byron C. Howes" Message-Id: <9510121235.AA01728@ecsvax.uncecs.edu> Subject: Re: FBI has been notified! To: ERIC@SEARN.SUNET.SE (Eric Thomas) Date: Thu, 12 Oct 95 8:35:21 EDT Cc: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM, list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM, lmccarth@cs.umass.edu In-Reply-To: <199510120755.AAA28695@miles.greatcircle.com>; from "Eric Thomas" at Oct 12, 95 8:43 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL11] Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Eric Thomas writes: > I suppose Eric Hilding needed a way to make the Feds take the bait. > Unfortunately, since there isn't the beginning of a possible charge > against the spammers (unless of course they DO run a child pornography > ring, in which case they will be indicted independently of the spam), > this is a complete waste of time and taxpayer money. This will also serve > to discredit our cause in the Fed's eyes. Nobody likes to be sent on a > wild goose chase. Insofar as forged mail has resulted in a denial of service attack on systems that were made to appear to be the originating systems, there has been a crime committed here. It is perhaps not as alarming or as sexy as the implications of mail fraud or child pornography, but it is nevertheless a crime. --Byron From list-managers-owner Thu Oct 12 06:43:38 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id GAA05121 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 12 Oct 1995 06:31:12 -0700 Received: from frege.math.ethz.ch (frege-hg.math.ethz.ch [129.132.104.6]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with ESMTP id GAA05114 for ; Thu, 12 Oct 1995 06:30:57 -0700 From: bollow@math.ethz.ch Received: from findel.math.ethz.ch (bollow@findel.math.ethz.ch [129.132.146.134]) by frege.math.ethz.ch (8.6.4/Main-mathdept-mailer) with ESMTP id OAA16432 for ; Thu, 12 Oct 1995 14:28:47 +0100 Received: (bollow@localhost) by findel.math.ethz.ch (8.6.9/D-MATH-client) id OAA24852; Thu, 12 Oct 1995 14:28:46 +0100 Date: Thu, 12 Oct 1995 14:28:46 +0100 Message-Id: <199510121328.OAA24852@findel.math.ethz.ch> To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Suggestion vs. e-mail spam Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Greetings! Like others I think than calling on the FBI to investigate e-mail spam will not solve the problem. I would suggest the following, different, approach to solving the problem which I think is more in line with the tradition of the internet. I would suggest creating a usenet newsgroup news.admin.net-abuse.mailspam with an automated moderator (explained below) where list-managers, postmasters and other concerned people can report e-mail spam in some standard format, giving a regexp which will match the spam and probably nothing else. Then every internet site which wants to protect itself from spams would run a program which automatically scans this newsgroup news.admin.net-abuse.mailspam and every incoming e-mail which matches the regexp which describes a reported spam will be put in a special mail folder /var/spool/mailspam/$USER or something like that for two weeks since the spam has been reported. If the spam report arrives after the e-mail has been received but before it has been read, the spam mail is moved from /var/spool/mail/$USER to /var/spool/mailspam/$USER. Messages in /var/spool/mailspam are automatically deleted after two weeks. This set-up still gives the recipient the option to read his spam if he wants to, or to safely ignore it if he is not interested in it. (This option is important in the case that the spam-matching regexp matches some of this user's regular e-mail, which may easily be the case if he is engaged in some legitimate discussion about this particular spam.) The automated moderator would be a computer program which accepts a spam report if and only if the following criteria are satisfied: - The syntax of the spam report is correct. - The From: address of the spam report is verified by a simple protocol in which the automated moderater sends a confirmation request back to the human who reports the spam which must be replied to before the spam report is posted. - The regexp does not match any message in a collection of non-spam messages (I would submit one message from each of my lists to this collection just to make sure that no-one posts a regexp which matches something in the header or footer of all valid messages on my list). I think a simple set-up like this would probably suffice to make things nice enough even if (as we fear) the number of spammers should increase. Note that this idea is geared primarily to catch not only spams which go via mailing lists but also those which go via "direct e-mailing", like in the following scenario: Suppose businessman X uses some software to extract all strings which are syntactically correct e-mail addresses from usenet, mailing list archives etc. Then he starts offering his services to send ads by direct e-mail to sublists of his e-mail address database... :( God bless, Norbert. -- Norbert Bollow, Zuerich, Switzerland. Admin of the CHURCHPLANTERS list. Email-To: bollow@math.ethz.ch PGP encrypted mail welcome. PGP public key available by 'finger bollow@gatekeeper.math.ethz.ch'. From list-managers-owner Thu Oct 12 08:37:04 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id IAA06923 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 12 Oct 1995 08:20:14 -0700 Received: from lexis-nexis.com (firewall.meaddata.com [138.12.96.137]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with SMTP id IAA06896 for ; Thu, 12 Oct 1995 08:18:44 -0700 Received: from meaddata.lexis-nexis.com ([138.12.96.71]) by lexis-nexis.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA08934; Thu, 12 Oct 95 11:15:14 EDT Received: from fragile.lexis-nexis.com by meaddata.lexis-nexis.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA29134; Thu, 12 Oct 95 11:15:03 EDT Received: by fragile.lexis-nexis.com (5.0/SMI-SVR4) id AA08237; Thu, 12 Oct 1995 11:15:00 -0400 Date: Thu, 12 Oct 1995 11:15:00 -0400 From: trobbins@lexis-nexis.com (Tim Robbins) Message-Id: <9510121515.AA08237@fragile.lexis-nexis.com> To: jeffw@smoe.org, list-managers@GreatCircle.Com Subject: ListServer Problem Cc: trider@lexis-nexis.com, davidc@lexis-nexis.com, mawhjm@lexis-nexis.com X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII Content-Length: 191 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Jeff, I spoke with Todd and he as turned off his process which is looking for ListServers on the 'Net'. Thanks for the information, Tim Robbins Postmaster/Newsmaster LEXIS-NEXIS, Dayton OH From list-managers-owner Thu Oct 12 08:45:07 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id IAA06934 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 12 Oct 1995 08:20:44 -0700 Received: from access5.digex.net (access5.digex.net [205.197.245.196]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with ESMTP id IAA06927 for ; Thu, 12 Oct 1995 08:20:41 -0700 Received: (from asgilman@localhost) by access5.digex.net (8.6.12/8.6.12) id LAA06598 ; for ; Thu, 12 Oct 1995 11:18:35 -0400 From: Al Gilman Message-Id: <199510121518.LAA06598@access5.digex.net> Subject: Re: Suggestion vs. e-mail spam To: bollow@math.ethz.ch Date: Thu, 12 Oct 1995 11:18:34 -0400 (EDT) Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: <199510121328.OAA24852@findel.math.ethz.ch> from "bollow@math.ethz.ch" at Oct 12, 95 02:28:46 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24beta] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 1739 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk A central database of alleged abuses would be a good thing. There is not need to burden News with this. The critical performance issue here is that the regexp gets installed in a mail filter fast. Why go through News? The Email internet should defend itself -- there shouild be a complete solution available that depends only on Email for communication. The two basic communication facilities in Email are a submit address. This is where you bounce or forward any message that you consider to be an abuse of your email in-box. an announce-like list you can subscribe to that dispenses incident case-packets. The case-packet contains the original message and optional derivatives such as a regexp for filtering. The database is mirrored in http, i.e. there is an archive dispensing {active + all prior} "announce" entries. I see less reason to mirror the input port. But if we are going to allow filter daemons to submit these things and not just the considered opinion of humans, then a faster path in is also interesting. The central site should do the key extraction (regexp). Don't leave that to the individual. It's better done mechanically, under community consensus rules. It is important that this thing be fast. At a slower pace one can use News, email, http or whatever for a discussion of appropriate use criteria. The opinions of the complainants are not all going to win community endorsement. But on the other hand, there is no black-and-white rule one could teach to a contemporary natural language filter to determine valid/invalid complaints mechanically. And you can't run it through a filter as sensitive as the news.answers moderation team quikly ;-) Al Gilman From list-managers-owner Thu Oct 12 08:45:14 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id IAA07248 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 12 Oct 1995 08:37:38 -0700 Received: from kitsune.swcp.com (swcp.com [198.59.115.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with ESMTP id IAA07241 for ; Thu, 12 Oct 1995 08:37:34 -0700 Received: (from lazlo@localhost) by kitsune.swcp.com (8.6.9/8.6.9) id JAA16051 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Thu, 12 Oct 1995 09:35:43 -0600 From: Lazlo Nibble Message-Id: <199510121535.JAA16051@kitsune.swcp.com> Subject: Spammer caught (forwarded from elsewhere) To: list-managers@greatcircle.com (lm) Date: Thu, 12 Oct 1995 09:35:42 -0600 (MDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 2371 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Got this on the comix mailing list, of all places. If anyone has more details, please share them. > From: Tom Giroux > Subject: Spammer caught > Date: Thu, 12 Oct 1995 09:59:17 -0400 > > For those of you who subscribe to one or more LISTSERVs, you probably got > "spammed" recently by someone offering magazine subscriptions. > > Spamming is the act of using the power of computers and unlimited access to > listserv/mailing list userid's to indiscriminately propagate unsolicited > messages, usually trying to sell a product, or prove one's cleverness. > Spamming takes advantage of the power of a mailing list to efficiently > distribute messages to all subscribers automatically. > > (For those interested in the derivation of the term - it refers to the Monty > Python classical SPAM skit...spam and eggs, spam amd sausage, spam and spam, > etc.) > > Spamming can't be prevented easily, typically the Internet service provider > that the spammer uses will close their account if enough complaints are > received. > > I received the following notice about this particular spamming incident: > ********************************************************************** > From: "Shelly" > Subject: Spammer Caught > > After receiving the fourth magazine spamming message today, I saved the header > information and looked up the point-of-contact for the service provider > through the RS.InterNic.Net Registration Services. I contacted the service > provider whose internet access service facilities were being abused, they > explained that the person and/or persons who were spamming the digests have > been identified and that the user accounts have been closed. They are looking > into taking legal action against the culprit(s) and have also taken action to > prevent further spamming of digests from their service facilities. > > You should also know that they were not the only service provider whose You > should also know that they were not the only service provider whose facilities > were mis-used in this fashion. There are other service providers involved and > they are working together to deter users of this type of activity. > > *Tom Giroux tag01@health.state.ny.us > *Information Systems and Health Statistics > *Room 1161 Corning Tower 518-474-8373 From list-managers-owner Thu Oct 12 09:46:40 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id JAA09054 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 12 Oct 1995 09:35:08 -0700 Received: from alaska.net (calvino.alaska.net [204.17.139.1]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with SMTP id JAA09047 for ; Thu, 12 Oct 1995 09:35:04 -0700 Received: from denali.alaska.net (anc-p4-103.alaska.net) by alaska.net (5.x/SMI-SVR4) id AA02364; Thu, 12 Oct 1995 08:33:13 -0800 Message-Id: <9510121633.AA02364@alaska.net> From: denali@alaska.net (Dave Rudisill) To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: V-MailServer Date: Thu, 12 Oct 1995 08:27:38 -0800 X-Mailer: Forte Agent .99a.107 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I am looking for a piece of software called V-MailServer. Somebody told me that it has been renamed to something else. It is a mailing list manager that runs under MS-DOS, I hope. Anybody know where I can find it? Thanks. -- Dave Rudisill denali@alaska.net From list-managers-owner Thu Oct 12 10:01:00 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id JAA08520 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 12 Oct 1995 09:17:51 -0700 Received: from miso.wwa.com (miso.wwa.com [198.49.174.33]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with SMTP id JAA08513 for ; Thu, 12 Oct 1995 09:17:46 -0700 Received: by miso.wwa.com (Smail3.1.28.1 #8) id m0t3QIU-000iEWC; Thu, 12 Oct 95 11:15 CDT Message-Id: From: dattier@wwa.com (David W. Tamkin) Subject: Todd Rider twice more To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Date: Thu, 12 Oct 1995 11:15:54 -0500 (CDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 281 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Rider of lexis-nexis sent "lists" to both of my lists at their -request addresses as well. Both are manually run anyway, and since "lists" if I understand correctly is a request for the list of mailing lists run at that address, it is ridiculous to send it to a -request address. From list-managers-owner Thu Oct 12 10:11:17 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id JAA09660 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 12 Oct 1995 09:54:48 -0700 Received: from frege.math.ethz.ch (frege-hg.math.ethz.ch [129.132.104.6]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with ESMTP id JAA09651 for ; Thu, 12 Oct 1995 09:54:38 -0700 From: bollow@math.ethz.ch Received: from findel.math.ethz.ch (bollow@findel.math.ethz.ch [129.132.146.134]) by frege.math.ethz.ch (8.6.4/Main-mathdept-mailer) with ESMTP id RAA18620; Thu, 12 Oct 1995 17:52:17 +0100 Received: (bollow@localhost) by findel.math.ethz.ch (8.6.9/D-MATH-client) id RAA25204; Thu, 12 Oct 1995 17:52:16 +0100 Date: Thu, 12 Oct 1995 17:52:16 +0100 Message-Id: <199510121652.RAA25204@findel.math.ethz.ch> To: asgilman@access.digex.net CC: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM In-reply-to: <199510121518.LAA06598@access5.digex.net> (message from Al Gilman on Thu, 12 Oct 1995 11:18:34 -0400 (EDT)) Subject: Re: Suggestion vs. e-mail spam Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Al Gilman responded to my suggestions: > A central database of alleged abuses would be a good thing. > > There is not need to burden News with this. > > The critical performance issue here is that the regexp gets > installed in a mail filter fast. Why go through News? You're right here. An announce-like mailing list like you suggest will do the job better. And when the number of subscribers gets too big it can still be split up into a hierarchy of mailing lists (i.e. have an exploder on each continent etc.) > The two basic communication facilities in Email are > > a submit address. This is where you bounce or forward > any message that you consider to be an abuse of your > email in-box. > > an announce-like list you can subscribe to that > dispenses incident case-packets. The case-packet > contains the original message and optional derivatives > such as a regexp for filtering. > > The database is mirrored in http, i.e. there is an archive > dispensing {active + all prior} "announce" entries. > I see less reason to mirror the input port. But if we are going to > allow filter daemons to submit these things and not just the > considered opinion of humans, then a faster path in is also > interesting. > > The central site should do the key extraction (regexp). Don't > leave that to the individual. It's better done mechanically, under > community consensus rules. Ok. Let's have automatized regexp extraction for standard spams. But give the site admins of the central anti-spam site the right to manually add a regexp, just in case some "direct e-mail" spammer is clever enough to vary the From: address, the number of whitespaces in the text etc. enough from message to message to fool the automatic regexp extraction algorithm. > It is important that this thing be fast. > > At a slower pace one can use News, email, http or whatever for a > discussion of appropriate use criteria. The opinions of the complainants > are not all going to win community endorsement. But on the other hand, > there is no black-and-white rule one could teach to a contemporary > natural language filter to determine valid/invalid complaints mechanically. You are right again. Whatever the algorithm to determine valid/invalid complaints, once this filter algorithm is publicly known, a determined spammer could carefully design his spam in such a way that the filter would falsely come to the conclusion that the spam complaint is invalid. Probably the only way out is to have a human moderator to monitor the spam complaints according to generally agreed-upon rules. Some of the big service providers (those who have someone on duty around the clock) might be willing to share this responsibility among them. If this moderation is part of the duty of one of the engineers on duty the complaint validation procedure will normally not take much time. For example, let's assume that normally the spam alert will normally arrive not more than half an hour after the spam arrived at the destination host. Then many people will configure their "anti-spam-biff" and "anti-spam-mailreaders" in such a way that they display mails from outside the local domain only half an hour after they arrived and only if no matching spam alert has arrived in the meantime. So while the whole matter is pretty time-critical it is not as bad as one might think at first. Maybe all this is not going to be realized soon, but if the amount of spam e-mail increases one day something like this will happen. I am not afraid of spam any more. God bless, Norbert. -- Norbert Bollow, Zuerich, Switzerland. Admin of the CHURCHPLANTERS list. Email-To: bollow@math.ethz.ch PGP encrypted mail welcome. PGP public key available by 'finger bollow@gatekeeper.math.ethz.ch'. From list-managers-owner Thu Oct 12 10:31:32 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id KAA10731 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 12 Oct 1995 10:13:42 -0700 Received: from sgi.sgi.com (SGI.COM [192.48.153.1]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with ESMTP id KAA10723 for ; Thu, 12 Oct 1995 10:13:38 -0700 Received: from lunch.engr.sgi.com by sgi.sgi.com via ESMTP (950405.SGI.8.6.12/910110.SGI) id KAA15952; Thu, 12 Oct 1995 10:11:43 -0700 Received: by lunch.engr.sgi.com (950511.SGI.8.6.12.PATCH526/940406.SGI.AUTO) id KAA03562; Thu, 12 Oct 1995 10:11:42 -0700 From: close@lunch.engr.sgi.com (Diane Barlow Close) Message-Id: <199510121711.KAA03562@lunch.engr.sgi.com> Subject: Re: Announcing new list To: adam@tripcom.com (Adam Horwitz) Date: Thu, 12 Oct 1995 10:11:40 -0700 (PDT) Cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com In-Reply-To: <199510120635.BAA23404@vger.tripcom.com> from "Adam Horwitz" at Oct 12, 1995 01:35:00 AM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL0a8] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Adam Horwitz wrote: > Is there a newsgroup or other place appropriate for announcing a new > mailing list? The NEW-LIST gated mailing list is specifically set up for this purpose. Here's part of their readme: NEW-LIST Information 06/27/94 NEW-LIST is a moderated distribution list which may be used to announce the establishment of new e-mail mailing lists. Many of the people who maintain "lists of lists" subscribe to the NEW-LIST list as do direct users of the information. If you would like to subscribe to NEW-LIST you may send e-mail to LISTSERV@vm1.nodak.edu (or LISTSERV@NDSUVM1 on BITNET) with the BODY of the mail containing the single line: SUB NEW-LIST yourfirstname yourlastname Eg. sub new-list Arthur Conan Doyle Types of Announcements We will accept items sent to new-list@vm1.nodak.edu or on BITNET to NEW-LIST@NDSUVM1 as long as they follow these guidelines. While we do not generally censor the items due to the topic matter of the list, we might not post something if we don't feel it is complete, if it might cause confusion, or if it doesn't fit the charter of the list. The NEW-LIST list exists primarily for initial announcements of new e-mail lists. The format for announcements is contained in the file NEW-LIST FORMAT available from LISTSERV@vm1.nodak.edu (see below). New and changed list announcements must come from a list owner, moderator, or list server administrator. [SNIP] Contact If you have any questions please contact the list owner/editor: Marty Hoag hoag@vm1.nodak.edu or nu021172@NDSUVM1.BITNET NDSU Information Technology Services PO Box 5164 / IACC Room 206 Fargo, ND USA 58105 Phone: 701 237-8639 Fax: 701 237-8541 -- Diane Close close@lunch.engr.sgi.com I'm at lunch all day. :-) From list-managers-owner Thu Oct 12 13:16:41 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id NAA16191 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 12 Oct 1995 13:10:59 -0700 Received: from access5.digex.net (access5.digex.net [205.197.245.196]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with ESMTP id NAA16183 for ; Thu, 12 Oct 1995 13:10:55 -0700 Received: (from asgilman@localhost) by access5.digex.net (8.6.12/8.6.12) id QAA02195 ; for ; Thu, 12 Oct 1995 16:09:05 -0400 From: Al Gilman Message-Id: <199510122009.QAA02195@access5.digex.net> Subject: Re: Todd Rider twice more To: dattier@wwa.com (David W. Tamkin) Date: Thu, 12 Oct 1995 16:09:04 -0400 (EDT) Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: from "David W. Tamkin" at Oct 12, 95 11:15:54 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24beta] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 704 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk From: dattier@wwa.com (David W. Tamkin) Rider of lexis-nexis sent "lists" to both of my lists at their -request addresses as well. Both are manually run anyway, and since "lists" if I understand correctly is a request for the list of mailing lists run at that address, it is ridiculous to send it to a -request address. Correct? No. Ridiculous? No. It is not uncommon for a Listproc or listserv site to accept mail to listname-request@site and deliver it to @site because of the prevalent confusion about where to send administrative requests. Al Gilman PS: I trust you saw the message wherein Mead Data claims Rider has desisted. Sometimes a polite objection will get action. From list-managers-owner Thu Oct 12 13:32:24 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id NAA16268 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 12 Oct 1995 13:15:40 -0700 Received: from kitsune.swcp.com (swcp.com [198.59.115.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with ESMTP id NAA16261 for ; Thu, 12 Oct 1995 13:15:36 -0700 Received: (from lazlo@localhost) by kitsune.swcp.com (8.6.9/8.6.9) id OAA29531 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Thu, 12 Oct 1995 14:13:17 -0600 From: Lazlo Nibble Message-Id: <199510122013.OAA29531@kitsune.swcp.com> Subject: Todd Rider twice more To: list-managers@greatcircle.com (lm) Date: Thu, 12 Oct 1995 14:13:14 -0600 (MDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 451 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > Rider of lexis-nexis sent "lists" to both of my lists at their -request > addresses as well. Both are manually run anyway, and since "lists" if I > understand correctly is a request for the list of mailing lists run at that > address, it is ridiculous to send it to a -request address. Except that many sites running majordomo alias the "*-request" addresses for their lists to majordomo. -- ::: Lazlo (lazlo@swcp.com; http://www.swcp.com/lazlo) From list-managers-owner Thu Oct 12 20:13:18 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id UAA22558 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 12 Oct 1995 20:06:18 -0700 Received: from emout05.mail.aol.com (emout05.mail.aol.com [198.81.10.37]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with ESMTP id UAA22551 for ; Thu, 12 Oct 1995 20:06:14 -0700 From: PMDAtropos@aol.com Received: by emout05.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id XAA12804; Thu, 12 Oct 1995 23:04:23 -0400 Date: Thu, 12 Oct 1995 23:04:23 -0400 Message-ID: <951012230422_122755489@emout05.mail.aol.com> To: bollow@math.ethz.ch, asgilman@access.digex.net cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: Suggestion vs. e-mail spam Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk In a message dated 95-10-12 13:12:27 EDT, bollow@math.ethz.ch writes: >Probably the only way out is to have a human moderator to monitor the >spam complaints according to generally agreed-upon rules. Some of the >big service providers (those who have someone on duty around the clock) >might be willing to share this responsibility among them. [ ... ] This sounds reasonable. We have a fairly powerful machine set up for our LISTSERV installation, and I'd be glad to donate space on the server for such a list. We can also allocate some time from my staff to monitor the list. Given the discussion on isp-admin-list right now, I'm sure we could find plenty of admins willing to help monitor it as well. -- __ David B. O'Donnell (atropos@aol.net, PMDAtropos@aol.com) \/ AOL Internet Feedback/Response/Information Team Manager Tel. +1 703/448-8700 x3725 - FAX +1 703/883-1514 Belief-L, GLB-News -Press -Discuss, SoftRevu List Owner/Editor http://www.cais.com/atropos/ ---- "The spam stops here." From list-managers-owner Fri Oct 13 07:52:05 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id HAA04104 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 13 Oct 1995 07:40:31 -0700 Received: from access5.digex.net (access5.digex.net [205.197.245.196]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with ESMTP id HAA04097 for ; Fri, 13 Oct 1995 07:40:26 -0700 Received: (from asgilman@localhost) by access5.digex.net (8.6.12/8.6.12) id KAA02553 ; for ; Fri, 13 Oct 1995 10:38:13 -0400 From: Al Gilman Message-Id: <199510131438.KAA02553@access5.digex.net> Subject: Re: Suggestion vs. e-mail spam To: PMDAtropos@aol.com Date: Fri, 13 Oct 1995 10:38:12 -0400 (EDT) Cc: bollow@math.ethz.ch, asgilman@access.digex.net, list-managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: <951012230422_122755489@emout05.mail.aol.com> from "PMDAtropos@aol.com" at Oct 12, 95 11:04:23 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24beta] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 1120 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk From: PMDAtropos@aol.com > ... Some of the >big service providers (those who have someone on duty around the clock) >might be willing to share this responsibility among them. [ ... ] This sounds reasonable. We have a fairly powerful machine set up for our LISTSERV installation, and I'd be glad to donate space on the server for such a list. We can also allocate some time from my staff to monitor the list. Given the discussion on isp-admin-list right now, I'm sure we could find plenty of admins willing to help monitor it as well. http://www.cais.com/atropos/ ---- "The spam stops here." That's good. Resources might be available. Other stakeholders exist that we haven't involved yet. Maybe we need to get organized. Who would be willing to work on this? How do people on this list feel about spawning an activity off the list? Is it too soon? Glad to be rid of us? [I envision a draft-document archive service at minimum and possibly a new project mailing list, or a thread in another list or NewsGroup, -- beyond the draft-circulation activity I dunno.] Al Gilman From list-managers-owner Fri Oct 13 17:30:04 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id RAA18862 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 13 Oct 1995 17:27:22 -0700 Received: from relay4.UU.NET (relay4.UU.NET [192.48.96.14]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with ESMTP id RAA18855 for ; Fri, 13 Oct 1995 17:27:19 -0700 Received: from postmodern.com by relay4.UU.NET with SMTP id QQzlin16351; Fri, 13 Oct 1995 20:25:28 -0400 Received: by postmodern.com (5.0/SMI-SVR4/950522-mcb1) id AA01994; Fri, 13 Oct 95 17:20:32 PDT Message-Id: <9510140020.AA01994@postmodern.com> From: mcb@postmodern.com (Michael C. Berch) Date: Fri, 13 Oct 1995 17:20:30 -0700 In-Reply-To: <951009204331_119981323@mail04.mail.aol.com> X-Mailer: Mail User's Shell (7.2.5 10/14/92) To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: Full mailboxes Cc: PMDAtropos@aol.com content-length: 2072 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk PMDAtropos@aol.com (David O'Donnell) writes: > Each AOL member is permitted 550 pieces of mail on our mail host at any given > time. At five screen names per account, 3.5 million accounts, that's as many > as 9,625,000,000 pieces of mail live on the service at any given time. Each > piece of mail can be up to 32k, making storate as much as 308,000,000,000k - > not counting file attachments, which I've personally sent as large as 24MB. > > Obviously, this is an extreme case -- reality is probably more like about > four million mailboxes with an average of 300 pieces of mail, each around 5k > in size. That's still 12,000,000,000 of space for e-mail alone, plus the > file system to keep it on, plus the software to manage it. > > All in all, I'd think that up to 550MB of mail (inbound mail can be up to 1MB > in size), at 550 pieces, is pretty reasonable. [...] Hmmm. I read this over a few times, and it certainly seems like AOL is making a reasonable accomodation for members' mail, but I had to scratch my head a few times. Wouldn't a straight disk space quota on mail be a lot easier (and fairer) than a 550-piece limit. I mean, *all* the mail I've sent and received in over 10 years on the Net is not much more than 550MB, but I *often* have more than 550 messages in my mailbox. Also, I saw "12,000,000,000 of space for e-mail alone", which might look like a lot for a moment, but that's, er... less than $4000 of disk space these days (I'm interpolating... I just saw a 9GB drive advertised for $2300.) *Then* I realized that David dropped a couple of decimal places or something -- 300 pieces of mail * 5000 bytes * 4 million mailboxes == 6,000,000,000,000 (6 terabytes) *not* 12,000,000,000 (12 gigabytes). BIG difference :-). Anyway, I appreciated the response... sometimes it's difficult to understand what AOL is up to, and I really enjoy David's participation on the list. (But it *would* be nice if AOL returned a transient error for mailbox full instead of a final error.) -- Michael C. Berch mcb@postmodern.com / mcb@greatcircle.com From list-managers-owner Fri Oct 13 18:13:36 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id SAA20268 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 13 Oct 1995 18:06:15 -0700 Received: from relay4.UU.NET (relay4.UU.NET [192.48.96.14]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with ESMTP id SAA20261 for ; Fri, 13 Oct 1995 18:06:12 -0700 Received: from postmodern.com by relay4.UU.NET with SMTP id QQzliq19657; Fri, 13 Oct 1995 21:04:22 -0400 Received: by postmodern.com (5.0/SMI-SVR4/950522-mcb1) id AA02105; Fri, 13 Oct 95 17:59:25 PDT Message-Id: <9510140059.AA02105@postmodern.com> From: mcb@postmodern.com (Michael C. Berch) Date: Fri, 13 Oct 1995 17:59:24 -0700 In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Mail User's Shell (7.2.5 10/14/92) To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: FBI has been notified! content-length: 1113 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Eric Hilding writes: > To: William Duff > FBI Fraud By Wire Division > > From: Eric R. Hilding > > Subj: Possible Fraud By Wire Involving The Internet or Pornography Ring Front? > [...] > Since reference is made to obtaining certain "adult" materials, this could > potentially be tied to some type of pornography ring. Due to the suspicious > nature of the "disguised" source mailings, I hope you find this sufficient > to warrant a immediate investigation of exactly what is going on here. Arrrrrgh. In the ordinality of things that bother me, the FBI going on a pornography jihad on the Net ranks *far* above spammers. (And infinitely above "pornography rings," whatever they may be.) You can filter out spam. But you can't filter out government censors who would be more than happy to police the Net to "protect" us from this "harmful" material. Given a choice between an uncensored Net with spam, and a censored Net without spam, I would certainly prefer the former, and I believe that most here would as well. -- Michael C. Berch mcb@postmodern.com / mcb@greatcircle.com From list-managers-owner Fri Oct 13 18:18:46 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id SAA20213 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 13 Oct 1995 18:04:05 -0700 Received: from usis.com (usis.com [199.171.178.1]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with ESMTP id SAA20205 for ; Fri, 13 Oct 1995 18:04:01 -0700 Received: from usis.com.usis.com (siberia.usis.com [199.171.178.71]) by usis.com (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id UAA15256 for ; Fri, 13 Oct 1995 20:02:23 -0500 Message-Id: <199510140102.UAA15256@usis.com> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Siberia" Organization: usis To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Date: Fri, 13 Oct 1995 20:02:31 +0000 Subject: Mailer-Deamon problem Reply-to: siberia@usis.com Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.10) Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Hey everyone. I have a problem and I don't know what my next step should be. Below is the message that I have been trying to send to the offending site which describes my problem. I have tried to send my email to every common alias imaginable (such as postmaster, admin, etc.) They all come back as a NDN (non-deliverable message) of which I have pasted an example of below my email. I have looked up the site in the internic database and tried to send my email to the Technical Contact which was returned to me as well. Any ideas as to what I should do next? ------- Forwarded Message Follows ------- From: Self To: root@auburnschl.edu Subject: Mailer-Deamon problem Reply-to: siberia@usis.com Date: Fri, 13 Oct 1995 19:45:49 Hello. I administer the majordomo software for my site. Upon reviewing my log file for the past two weeks (10/3 - 10/13) I have found that there have been 702 emails from your site sent to domo@usis.com requesting help. A sample entry from my log file is shown below: Oct 13 19:39:37 usis.com majordomo[14867] {Mailer-Daemon@auburnschl.edu (Mailer-Daemon)} help Why is this happening and what can be done to stop it? -----Begin Enclosure----- Date sent: Fri, 13 Oct 95 20:57:19 -0500 From: Mailer-Daemon@auburnschl.edu (Mailer-Daemon) Organization: Auburn School Dept. Subject: NDN: Mailer-Deamon problem To: siberia@usis.com Sorry. Your message could not be delivered to: root (The name was not found at the remote site. Check that the name has been entered correctly.) -- -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Sent via ExpressNet/SMTP(tm), Internet Gateway of the Gods! ExpressNet/SMTP (c)1994 Delphic Software, Inc. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- ------End Enclosure----- Namaste' Kimberly Long siberia@usis.com In every colour there's the light. In every stone sleeps a crystal. Remember the Shaman, when he used to say: "Man is the dream of the dolphin". )O( --D. Fairstein From list-managers-owner Fri Oct 13 19:00:18 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id SAA21336 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 13 Oct 1995 18:51:56 -0700 Received: from vger.tripcom.com (vger.tripcom.com [198.5.220.33]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with ESMTP id SAA21329 for ; Fri, 13 Oct 1995 18:51:52 -0700 Received: (from adam@localhost) by vger.tripcom.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id UAA24896 for list-managers@GreatCircle.COM; Fri, 13 Oct 1995 20:50:01 -0500 From: Adam Horwitz Message-Id: <199510140150.UAA24896@vger.tripcom.com> Subject: Re: Full mailboxes To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Date: Fri, 13 Oct 1995 20:50:01 -0500 (CDT) In-Reply-To: <9510140020.AA01994@postmodern.com> from "Michael C. Berch" at Oct 13, 95 05:20:30 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Content-Length: 1298 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > PMDAtropos@aol.com (David O'Donnell) writes: > Each AOL member is permitted 550 pieces of mail on our mail host at any given > time. At five screen names per account, 3.5 million accounts, that's as many > as 9,625,000,000 pieces of mail live on the service at any given time. Each > piece of mail can be up to 32k, making storate as much as 308,000,000,000k - > not counting file attachments, which I've personally sent as large as 24MB. > > Obviously, this is an extreme case -- reality is probably more like about > four million mailboxes with an average of 300 pieces of mail, each around 5k > in size. That's still 12,000,000,000 of space for e-mail alone, plus the > file system to keep it on, plus the software to manage it. > > All in all, I'd think that up to 550MB of mail (inbound mail can be up to 1MB > in size), at 550 pieces, is pretty reasonable. [...] That's obviously an enormous resource to manage so I was wondering why you no longer permit users to delete any mail? I tried to delete from my in and sent boxes, but the system tells me they'll automatically be deleted after 30 days. I must say I was surprised that as a resource-concious person I could not delete. -- Adam Horwitz (708) 778-9531 Tripcom Systems Inc. adam@tripcom.com From list-managers-owner Sat Oct 14 15:00:09 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id OAA05904 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 14 Oct 1995 14:59:08 -0700 Received: from janet.advsys.com (xcrsnyder.ge_xc.dialup.net [158.254.10.56]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with ESMTP id OAA05897 for ; Sat, 14 Oct 1995 14:59:03 -0700 Received: from janet.advsys.com (rsnyder@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by janet.advsys.com (8.7/8.7) with ESMTP id RAA01114 for ; Sat, 14 Oct 1995 17:59:21 -0400 Message-Id: <199510142159.RAA01114@janet.advsys.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 1.6.2 7/18/95 To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: Mailer-Deamon problem In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 13 Oct 1995 20:02:31 -0000." <199510140102.UAA15256@usis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sat, 14 Oct 1995 17:59:17 -0400 From: Bob Snyder Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk siberia@usis.com said: > I have pasted an example of below my email. I have looked up the > site in the internic database and tried to send my email to the > Technical Contact which was returned to me as well. Any ideas as to > what I should do next? How about calling him? uburn School Department (AUBURNSCHL-DOM) P.O. Box 800 23 High Street Auburn, ME 04212-0800 Domain Name: AUBURNSCHL.EDU Administrative Contact, Technical Contact, Zone Contact: Hart, Jim (JH13) jimh@AUBURNSCHL.EDU (207) 784-6431 Bob From list-managers-owner Sun Oct 15 14:00:07 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id NAA21373 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 15 Oct 1995 13:57:55 -0700 Received: from acg60.wfunet.wfu.edu (acg60.wfunet.wfu.edu [152.17.1.31]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with ESMTP id NAA21366 for ; Sun, 15 Oct 1995 13:57:50 -0700 Received: from skywalker.phy.wfu.edu (skywalker.phy.wfu.edu [152.17.30.103]) by acg60.wfunet.wfu.edu (8.6.10/8.6.10) with SMTP id QAA27102 for ; Sun, 15 Oct 1995 16:57:36 -0400 Received: from bh.mindspring.com by skywalker.phy.wfu.edu; (5.65/1.1.8.2/26Jan95-1239PM) id AA22549; Sun, 15 Oct 1995 16:53:35 -0400 Received: (from bh@localhost) by hq.stargame.org (8.6.12/8.6.9) id QAA04865; Sat, 14 Oct 1995 16:01:25 -0400 Date: Sat, 14 Oct 1995 16:01:25 -0400 (EDT) From: Brian Hartsfield To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: FYI... (fwd) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk First we had Spam King and now we have Bulk Mailer. The following message was found on a mailing list for the TV show "Black Adder" Will these people ever quit? ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Received: from VMS.DC.LSOFT.COM (vms.dc.lsoft.com [205.186.43.2]) by hq.stargame.org (8.6.12/8.6.9) with ESMTP id PAA04636 for ; Sat, 14 Oct 1995 15:15:03 -0400 Received: from PEACH.EASE.LSOFT.COM (205.186.43.4) by VMS.DC.LSOFT.COM (LSMTP for OpenVMS v0.1a) with SMTP id 0E857A01 ; Sun, 15 Oct 1995 16:09:23 -0400 Received: from PSUVM.PSU.EDU by PSUVM.PSU.EDU (LISTSERV release 1.8b) with NJE id 0126 for BLKADR-L@PSUVM.PSU.EDU; Sun, 15 Oct 1995 16:08:54 -0400 Received: from PUCC.PRINCETON.EDU (NJE origin VMMAIL@PUCC) by PSUVM.PSU.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 0233; Sun, 15 Oct 1995 16:08:54 -0400 Received: from PUCC by PUCC.PRINCETON.EDU (Mailer R2.10 ptf008) with BSMTP id 1179; Sun, 15 Oct 95 09:22:30 EDT Received: from Princeton.EDU by pucc.PRINCETON.EDU (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with TCP; Sun, 15 Oct 95 09:22:22 EDT Received: from emout04.mail.aol.com by Princeton.EDU (5.65b/2.122/princeton) id AA21722; Sun, 15 Oct 95 05:28:49 -0400 Received: by emout04.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id FAA10780; Sun, 15 Oct 1995 05:17:22 -0400 Message-ID: <951015051721_44972091@emout04.mail.aol.com> Date: Sun, 15 Oct 1995 05:17:22 -0400 Reply-To: Blackadder List -- BLKADR-L Sender: Blackadder List -- BLKADR-L From: BulkMailr@AOL.COM Subject: FYI... X-To: JMReno@aol.com X-cc: see end of body To: Multiple recipients of list BLKADR-L The following message comes to you from BulkMailr...serving the Internet for all Bulk mailing. Bulkmailr is an advertiser of small businesses. Contained within this message, you will find small businesses advertising goods and services for public use and knowledge. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------------- ------------------ ----D.C.H.---- ---Chicago--- ------------------ If you are currently a student, business owner or just someone that needs capital for bills or an extra income, D.C.H. has compiled information and made extensive research on a new business strategy. 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Box 6016 Lindenhurst, IL 60046-6016 Don't miss out on this opportunity! ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------------- ---------------------------- ------Num Skull------- ---------------------------- NUM SKULL, one of the first midwest thrash bands, was formed in the year 1985. They released their first demo "NUMS THE WORD" in 1987. The following year marked a change to a more extreme and heavier sound as exhibited on the band's second demo "THRASH TO THE BONE". THE NEW MATERIAL WAS MUCH FASTER AND THE LYRICS WERE FAR HEAVIER. THIS NEW STYLE CREATED QUITE A BUZZ IN THE UNDERGROUND AND IT SOON LED TO A DEAL WITH ENIGMA RECORDS. LATER IN 1988, NUM SKULL RECORDED THEIR DEBUT ALBUM "RITUALLY ABUSED". THE ALBUM CONTAINS 12 TRACKS CONSISTING OF EXTREMELY CATCHY RIFFS AND "TONGUE IN CHEEK", DARK LYRICS. although WELL RECEIVED BY THE UNDERGROUND, THE ALBUM RECEIVED VIRTUALLY NO PROMOTION AND BACKING FROM THE LABEL. PROBLEMS BETWEEN THE LABEL AND THE BAND'S MANAGEMENT LED TO THE MUTUAL TERMINATION WITH ENIGMA RECORDS. IN EARLY 1991, NUM SKULL RELEASED A 9 SONG TAPE THAT FEATURED A HEAVIER, FAR MORE BRUTAL SOUND. THE PROMO FEATURED THE PATENTED, CATCHY, HEAVY GUITAR RIFFS ALONG WITH MUCH IMPROVED, HEAVIER VOCALS. REALIZING THAT SECURING ANOTHER RECORD DEAL REQUIRES SINCERE DEVOTION FROM IT'S MEMBERS, NUM SKULL REPLACED UNSTABLE AND UNRELIABLE MEMBERS. THE LINE-UP CONSISTS OF FOUNDING MEMBER, TOM BRANDNER-LEAD GUITAR, DAVE HARRINGTON-RHYTHM GUITAR, PAUL BENIGNO- VOCALS, AND SCOTT CREEKMORE-DRUMS. NUM SKULL, ALONG WITH SEA OF TRANQUILLITY, HAVE RELEASED A BRAND NEW, SPLIT 7 INCH ON RAGE RECORDS (NY). 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BOX 386 WINTHROP HARBOR, IL. 60096 U.S.A. or write to NUMSKULL1@aol.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------------- This has been a massage from Bulmailr@aol.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------------- --------------------------------------------end of message------------------------------------------------------------ %%% overflow headers %%% Cc: WillyBear@aol.com, Hiccup5@aol.com, Centervil@aol.com, Chatter218@aol.com, ONESPACY@aol.com, Akbn@aol.com, FOFanClub@aol.com, MUMBalum@aol.com, Spontcomb@aol.com, CAUTION767@aol.com, Anxiety95@aol.com, BANDDJ@aol.com, Jonwband@aol.com, MSelden@aol.com, LONNBN@aol.com, Smashmou@aol.com, UrboSleek@aol.com, Fminored@aol.com, Jus10j@aol.com, ONSET666@aol.com, Cassidy761@aol.com, NUBand@aol.com, Lightnboy@aol.com, ChungaV@aol.com, FxCityBand@aol.com, DelTino@aol.com, MarTayl@aol.com, Matopaha@aol.com, CHERYLDEAR@aol.com, BillatJL@aol.com, HAPPE31600@aol.com, DK4CASH1@aol.com, Lexicorps@aol.com, DorrieF@aol.com, RFowler998@aol.com, SBACJAX@aol.com, KBerquist@aol.com, TURNSMBUS@aol.com, HedHunter@aol.com, Nantacky@aol.com, JPMcL@aol.com, DThomas352@aol.com, IntBusAsoc@aol.com, HandsomeJS@aol.com, PHAT7@aol.com, DarkDanD@aol.com, ThisGuy@aol.com, BusyBusyBu@aol.com, REMiller60@aol.com, RAIDERRRRR@aol.com, Austin44@aol.com, UAOE@aol.com, RSWGROUP@aol.com, RMALMEIDA@aol.com, ABMLISTS@aol.com, UREYESEARS@aol.com, Jmcgu@aol.com, JeanChill@aol.com, ForumBusSr@aol.com, AmiMarco@aol.com, FREELONGDS@aol.com, Eatmydust1@aol.com, AISBS@aol.com, SWFLBGuild@aol.com, NYCDCVA@aol.com, LynchCons@aol.com, BTAEduc@aol.com, Dsptel@aol.com, ChinaMoney@aol.com, Businesguy@aol.com, BHPour@aol.com, JMorten453@aol.com, TurnkeyPOS@aol.com, PIP833@aol.com, VentureRes@aol.com, Hard2Plees@aol.com, JOU2@aol.com, BizPlan4U@aol.com, NAConcept@aol.com, BoricuaN@aol.com, LarryMrb@aol.com, TPope999@aol.com, JMartinec@aol.com, Cookie7491@aol.com, CoBuMgCons@aol.com, ACOasis@aol.com, ACHERM@aol.com, GTACMan@aol.com, ACSawyer@aol.com, ACFlecked@aol.com, Ac587@aol.com, ACMercury@aol.com, DraVed@aol.com, RomonaSton@aol.com, Skyman145@aol.com, Erbienais@aol.com, FOXYGOLD@aol.com, FDSLSRP1@aol.com, Themecha@aol.com, BoojeeKid@aol.com, AComp65001@aol.com, ACC333@aol.com, TrekieMan@aol.com, AMGNEIL@aol.com, Dirtman486@aol.com, JCtheAC@aol.com, Kender36@aol.com, Bltzkrgjh@aol.com, AC714@aol.com, Sesti@aol.com, PatSullivn@aol.com, ACirilo991@aol.com, ACtracer@aol.com, ACS27@aol.com, ACPAI@aol.com, Kentxx@aol.com, TurboAC@aol.com, ChgoExcel@aol.com, AC716@aol.com, Bootleger8@a %%% end overflow headers %%% From list-managers-owner Mon Oct 16 14:13:49 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id OAA19814 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 16 Oct 1995 14:05:11 -0700 Received: from relay3.UU.NET (relay3.UU.NET [192.48.96.8]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with ESMTP id OAA19800 for ; Mon, 16 Oct 1995 14:05:03 -0700 Received: from kitsune.swcp.com by relay3.UU.NET with SMTP id QQzltc04531; Mon, 16 Oct 1995 17:03:17 -0400 Received: (from lazlo@localhost) by kitsune.swcp.com (8.6.9/8.6.9) id PAA14709 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Mon, 16 Oct 1995 15:00:37 -0600 From: Lazlo Nibble Message-Id: <199510162100.PAA14709@kitsune.swcp.com> Subject: User's Guide for majordomo? To: list-managers@greatcircle.com (lm) Date: Mon, 16 Oct 1995 15:00:36 -0600 (MDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 309 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I'm revamping the info messages for all my lists, and I'm wondering if anyone has cobbled together a "Secrets of Majordomo"-type tutorial that's aimed at end-users (as opposed to admins). I'd like to include one, or at least provide a pointer to it. -- ::: Lazlo (lazlo@swcp.com; http://www.swcp.com/lazlo) From list-managers-owner Mon Oct 16 14:46:15 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id OAA21192 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 16 Oct 1995 14:34:47 -0700 Received: from tango.rahul.net (tango.rahul.net [192.160.13.5]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with SMTP id HAA06594 for ; Thu, 12 Oct 1995 07:59:41 -0700 Received: from bolero.rahul.net by tango.rahul.net with SMTP id AA13936 (5.67b8/IDA-1.5 for ); Thu, 12 Oct 1995 07:57:50 -0700 Received: from foxtrot.rahul.net by bolero.rahul.net with SMTP id AA05869 (5.67b8/IDA-1.5 for ); Thu, 12 Oct 1995 07:57:49 -0700 From: Steve Portigal Received: by foxtrot.rahul.net (5.67b8/jive-a2i-1.0) id AA27320; Thu, 12 Oct 1995 07:57:44 -0700 Date: Thu, 12 Oct 1995 07:57:44 -0700 Message-Id: <199510121457.AA27320@foxtrot.rahul.net> To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: (fwd) JOB OPPORTUNITY: Human Factors Engineer (HCI) Newsgroups: comp.human-factors Organization: GVO INC. Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I just thought this posting was very ironic (for us, anyway) Path: rahul.net!a2i!bug.rahul.net!a2i!genmagic!sgigate.sgi.com!uhog.mit.edu!news.mathworks.com!solaris.cc.vt.edu!swiss.ans.net!meaddata!news From: Brian Mikesell Newsgroups: comp.human-factors Subject: JOB OPPORTUNITY: Human Factors Engineer (HCI) Date: 12 Oct 1995 13:40:47 GMT Organization: LEXIS-NEXIS Lines: 80 Message-ID: <45j5sv$hri@meaddata.meaddata.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: stella.meaddata.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 1.22 (Windows; I; 32bit) LEXIS-NEXIS, a Division of Reed Elsevier plc group, is the acknowledged leader in the electronic publishing industry providing computerized research services to professionals in the legal profession, government agencies, major firms and corporations. We have immediate openings for: Human Factors Engineer (2 positions) Duties: Develop computer software product user interfaces by designing and implementing front end analyses, user interface designs, and usability tests. Accountabilities include: -- work with product managers and software engineers to design and prototype user interfaces for moderate to complex HCI applications -- design and conduct front end analysis using task analysis, interviewing, focus groups, product concept testing, and requirements gathering and validation -- design and develop usability test plans, conduct usability tests, provide design recommendations based on test results. Experience: Minimum B.S./B.A. in Human Factors Engineering, Human Factors Psychology or related discipline (M.S./M.A. preferred) and 4-6 years experience, with at least 2 years experience in the software industry. Other skills include: experience in developing user interface prototypes using tools such as Visual Basic and Bricklin's Demo II. Graphical user interface design experience preferred. Strong knowledge of MS Windows operating environment desirable. Project leadership experience desirable. Background: During the past 20 years LEXIS-NEXIS has been a pioneer in the electronic information industry. Today, as part of the Reed Elsevier plc group, it continues to grow and thrive. We work to attract smart, energetic, adaptable people who are committed to excellence and are ready to contribute within our changing environment. We highly value diversity in our workforce, and constantly look for ways to maximize the potential of each individual at LEXIS-NEXIS. Human Factors Engineers play a key role in large and small software projects, assessing customer needs and behavior, designing and prototyping human computer interfaces, and planning and executing usability tests. We are on the forefront of technology, and we believe that LEXIS-NEXIS provides a challenging and stimulating environment for the practice of human factors engineering. We offer a competitive salary, benefits package and career opportunities. If your qualifications match our job requirements, we will contact you directly. NO PHONE CALLS PLEASE. You must have proof of legal authority to work permanently in the U.S. For confidential consideration, send, email or fax your resume and salary requirements to: LEXIS-NEXIS P.O. Box 933, Dayton, OH 45401 Attn: Taylor Putney Fax: 513/865-1655 EMAIL: taylor.putney@lexis-nexis.com An Equal Opportunity Employer -- | steve portigal G V O | user interface dude | culturally aware interface design From list-managers-owner Mon Oct 16 15:00:33 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id OAA22078 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 16 Oct 1995 14:55:22 -0700 Received: from emout04.mail.aol.com (emout04.mail.aol.com [198.81.10.12]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with ESMTP id OAA22066 for ; Mon, 16 Oct 1995 14:55:19 -0700 From: PMDAtropos@aol.com Received: by emout04.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id RAA06624 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Mon, 16 Oct 1995 17:53:35 -0400 Date: Mon, 16 Oct 1995 17:53:35 -0400 Message-ID: <951016175334_74602792@emout04.mail.aol.com> To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: Full mailboxes Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk In a message dated 95-10-13 20:25:51 EDT, mcb@postmodern.com (Michael C. Berch) writes: >Wouldn't a straight disk space quota on >mail be a lot easier (and fairer) than a 550-piece limit. That's a good question... the answer is probably related as much to the platform our mail is stored on, plus the fact that the system is about 10 years old. I know we're moving towards more flexible systems, but what this will mean exactly I don't know. Insofar as the mail people listen to me, I'll push this idea (which I agree is much fairer to all concerned). >(But it *would* be nice if AOL returned a transient >error for mailbox full instead of a final error.) Here's what I got back from one of the mail guys when I asked about errors: >Long-term plans are to reject the message while the SMTP connection is still >open. RFC821 recommended 552, which is a non-transient code, for mailbox >full.. I think it's appropriate since few users will empty their mailboxes >before the message times out (3-5 days). As always, I'm happy to pass suggestions and arguments for or against what AOL is doing vis-a-vis e-mail on to the mail team. --David From list-managers-owner Mon Oct 16 15:15:18 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id PAA22520 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 16 Oct 1995 15:09:54 -0700 Received: from mail06.mail.aol.com (mail06.mail.aol.com [152.163.172.108]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with ESMTP id PAA22506 for ; Mon, 16 Oct 1995 15:09:50 -0700 From: PMDAtropos@aol.com Received: by mail06.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id SAA24377 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Mon, 16 Oct 1995 18:08:06 -0400 Date: Mon, 16 Oct 1995 18:08:06 -0400 Message-ID: <951016180756_74607897@mail06.mail.aol.com> To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: Full mailboxes (on AOL) Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk In a message dated 95-10-13 21:59:38 EDT, adam@tripcom.com (Adam Horwitz) writes: >That's obviously an enormous resource to manage so I was wondering why >you no longer permit users to delete any mail? I tried to delete from >my in and sent boxes, but the system tells me they'll automatically be >deleted after 30 days. I must say I was surprised that as a >resource-concious person I could not delete. Are you using an older version of the AOL software? The current version (2.5 for Windows, 2.6 for Mac) lets you delete with impunity, from your inbox, read-box and sent-box. On older versions, you can use the "Ignore" button to effectively delete mail, though it would have to go through the usual 5-7 day purge cycle. Unfortunately, I don't recall the justification for why the older versions of the software weren't able to directly delete mail. --David From list-managers-owner Mon Oct 16 19:31:57 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id TAA28257 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 16 Oct 1995 19:20:54 -0700 Received: from mail02.mail.aol.com (mail02.mail.aol.com [152.163.172.66]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with ESMTP id TAA28250 for ; Mon, 16 Oct 1995 19:20:51 -0700 From: NetConsult@aol.com Received: by mail02.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id WAA17215 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Mon, 16 Oct 1995 22:19:07 -0400 Date: Mon, 16 Oct 1995 22:19:07 -0400 Message-ID: <951016221856_74702983@mail02.mail.aol.com> To: PMDAtropos@aol.com, list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: Full mailboxes (on AOL) Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk FYI, many AOL users have multiple screen names. The 2.0 package incorporates TCP/IP connectivity which allows connects via other SLIP/PPP accounts. Nice feature when you use Flashmail to minimize online time. However, the 2.5 pakcage with the WWW Browser does not support TCP/IP connects and using flashmail requires individual and time-consuming dialup for each screen name. Regards, Bob From list-managers-owner Mon Oct 16 21:00:06 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id UAA00300 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 16 Oct 1995 20:59:16 -0700 Received: from UUCP-GW.CC.UH.EDU (UUCP-GW.CC.UH.EDU [129.7.1.11]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with SMTP id UAA00293 for ; Mon, 16 Oct 1995 20:59:12 -0700 Received: from Taronga.COM by UUCP-GW.CC.UH.EDU with UUCP id AA12685 (5.67a/IDA-1.5 for list-managers@greatcircle.com); Mon, 16 Oct 1995 22:47:24 -0500 Received: (from arielle@localhost) by bonkers.taronga.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id WAA26300 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Mon, 16 Oct 1995 22:35:47 -0500 From: ranger@taronga.com (Stephanie da Silva) Message-Id: <199510170335.WAA26300@bonkers.taronga.com> Subject: New Mailing List Spam To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Date: Mon, 16 Oct 1995 22:35:47 -0500 (CDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Content-Length: 1454 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk There are pros and cons to having a moderated list. One of the pros is intercepting garbage such as this. Here's one that just showed up in my mailbox. Header included, most of the text snipped. From helbig@ix.netcom.com Mon Oct 16 21:48:10 1995 Received: from ix.netcom.com (uucp@localhost) by bonkers.taronga.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) with UUCP id VAA25324 for ranger-list@taronga.com; Mon, 16 Oct 1995 21:48:10 -0500 Received: from ix6.ix.netcom.com by UUCP-GW.CC.UH.EDU with SMTP id AA12120 (5.67a/IDA-1.5 for ); Mon, 16 Oct 1995 21:46:14 -0500 Received: from by ix6.ix.netcom.com (8.6.12/SMI-4.1/Netcom) id TAA04067; Mon, 16 Oct 1995 19:46:03 -0700 Date: Mon, 16 Oct 1995 19:46:03 -0700 Message-Id: <199510170246.TAA04067@ix6.ix.netcom.com> From: helbig@ix.netcom.com (helbig ) Subject: TALK FREE TO A NJ LAWYER! To: ranger-list@taronga.com Status: OR DO YOU HAVE A LEGAL PROBLEM IN NEW JERSEY? FREE INITIAL CONSULTATION WITH A LAWYER SANDRA D. HELBIG Attorney at Law 16 Highland Place West Orange, New Jersey 07052 (201) 731-9828 helbig@ix.netcom.com From list-managers-owner Mon Oct 16 21:43:34 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id VAA01328 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 16 Oct 1995 21:36:57 -0700 Received: from suntan.tandem.com (suntan.tandem.com [192.216.221.8]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with ESMTP id VAA01321 for ; Mon, 16 Oct 1995 21:36:54 -0700 Received: from zorch.sf-bay.org by suntan.tandem.com (8.6.12/suntan5.950313) for list-managers@greatcircle.com id VAA20467; Mon, 16 Oct 1995 21:35:11 -0700 Received: (from usenet@localhost) by zorch.sf-bay.org (8.6.11/8.6.9) id VAA25697 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Mon, 16 Oct 1995 21:30:49 -0700 Newsgroups: zorch.lists.list-managers Path: zorch.sf-bay.org!scott From: scott@zorch.sf-bay.org (Scott Hazen Mueller) Subject: Re: New Mailing List Spam Distribution: zorch Reply-To: scott@zorch.sf-bay.org Organization: At Home; Salida, CA Message-ID: References: <199510170335.WAA26300@bonkers.taronga.com> X-Nntp-Posting-Host: localhost.sf-bay.org Date: Tue, 17 Oct 1995 04:30:45 GMT Apparently-To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk This is the attorney who handled the sale of my parent's home in 1982. She's a real person, if anyone can vouch for me I can vouch for that. 0.5 :-> The world has gotten so small, it's scary. \scott In article <199510170335.WAA26300@bonkers.taronga.com>, ranger@taronga.com (Stephanie da Silva) writes: >Here's one that just showed up in my mailbox. > >Date: Mon, 16 Oct 1995 19:46:03 -0700 >From: helbig@ix.netcom.com (helbig ) >Subject: TALK FREE TO A NJ LAWYER! > > DO YOU HAVE A LEGAL PROBLEM IN NEW JERSEY? > > FREE INITIAL CONSULTATION WITH A LAWYER > > SANDRA D. HELBIG > Attorney at Law > 16 Highland Place > West Orange, New Jersey 07052 > (201) 731-9828 > helbig@ix.netcom.com > From list-managers-owner Tue Oct 17 07:00:35 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id GAA12442 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 17 Oct 1995 06:53:02 -0700 Received: from emout04.mail.aol.com (emout04.mail.aol.com [198.81.10.12]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with ESMTP id GAA12435 for ; Tue, 17 Oct 1995 06:52:59 -0700 From: PMDAtropos@aol.com Received: by emout04.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id JAA25890; Tue, 17 Oct 1995 09:51:16 -0400 Date: Tue, 17 Oct 1995 09:51:16 -0400 Message-ID: <951017095114_125942834@emout04.mail.aol.com> To: bh@hq.stargame.org, list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: FYI... (fwd) Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk In a message dated 95-10-15 17:00:11 EDT, bh@hq.stargame.org (Brian Hartsfield) writes: >First we had Spam King and now we have Bulk Mailer. > >The following message was found on a mailing list for the TV show "Black >Adder" > >Will these people ever quit? This appears to be a case of a stolen credit card being used to create an account, which I have terminated. -- __ David B. O'Donnell (atropos@aol.net, PMDAtropos@aol.com) \/ AOL Internet Feedback/Response/Information Team Manager Tel. +1 703/448-8700 x3725 - FAX +1 703/883-1514 Belief-L, GLB-News -Press -Discuss, SoftRevu List Owner/Editor http://www.cais.com/atropos/ - "The spam stops here." From list-managers-owner Tue Oct 17 11:05:03 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id KAA20351 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 17 Oct 1995 10:50:14 -0700 Received: from maytag.graphics.cornell.edu (MAYTAG.GRAPHICS.CORNELL.EDU [128.84.247.157]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with SMTP id KAA20344 for ; Tue, 17 Oct 1995 10:50:11 -0700 Received: from localhost by maytag.graphics.cornell.edu; (5.65/1.1.8.2/07Nov94-0649PM) id AA04034; Tue, 17 Oct 1995 13:47:57 -0400 Message-Id: <9510171747.AA04034@maytag.graphics.cornell.edu> X-Mailer: exmh version 1.6gamma 3/31/95 To: PMDAtropos@aol.com Cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: stale mail from AOL In-Reply-To: Your message of "Mon, 16 Oct 95 17:53:35 EDT." <951016175334_74602792@emout04.mail.aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Tue, 17 Oct 95 13:47:56 -0400 From: Mitch Collinsworth X-Mts: smtp Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >As always, I'm happy to pass suggestions and arguments for or against what >AOL is doing vis-a-vis e-mail on to the mail team. > >--David OK I'll bite. Why did I just last night, October 16, receive the message below? 8 days old! -Mitch -------------- Return-path: Katobg@aol.com Received: by emout04.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id XAA21971; Sun, 8 Oct 1995 23:28:10 -0400 Date: Sun, 8 Oct 1995 23:28:10 -0400 From: Katobg@aol.com Message-id: <951008232809_119286803@emout04.mail.aol.com> To: Mitch@graphics.cornell.edu Cc: ussot-esc@graphics.cornell.edu Subject: Re your re [...] From list-managers-owner Tue Oct 17 11:14:36 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id LAA20872 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 17 Oct 1995 11:00:36 -0700 Received: from emout05.mail.aol.com (emout05.mail.aol.com [198.81.10.37]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with ESMTP id LAA20859 for ; Tue, 17 Oct 1995 11:00:32 -0700 From: PMDAtropos@aol.com Received: by emout05.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id NAA16783 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Tue, 17 Oct 1995 13:58:47 -0400 Date: Tue, 17 Oct 1995 13:58:47 -0400 Message-ID: <951017135846_46839179@emout05.mail.aol.com> To: NetConsult@aol.com cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: Full mailboxes (on AOL) Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk In a message dated 95-10-16 22:19:08 EDT, NetConsult writes: >FYI, many AOL users have multiple screen names. The 2.0 package incorporates >TCP/IP connectivity which allows connects via other SLIP/PPP accounts. Nice >feature when you use Flashmail to minimize online time. However, the 2.5 >pakcage with the WWW Browser does not support TCP/IP connects and using >flashmail requires individual and time-consuming dialup for each screen name. I'm on using AOL for Windows 2.5 over TCP/IP right now. Make sure your AOL setup is correct (and if you are still having problems, please reply to me directly -- this isn't a list-managers topic anymore). -- __ David B. O'Donnell (atropos@aol.net, PMDAtropos@aol.com) \/ AOL Internet Feedback/Response/Information Team Manager Tel. +1 703/448-8700 x3725 - FAX +1 703/883-1514 Belief-L, GLB-News -Press -Discuss, SoftRevu List Owner/Editor http://www.cais.com/atropos/ - "The spam stops here." From list-managers-owner Tue Oct 17 11:44:51 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id LAA22532 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 17 Oct 1995 11:32:04 -0700 Received: from maytag.graphics.cornell.edu (MAYTAG.GRAPHICS.CORNELL.EDU [128.84.247.157]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with SMTP id LAA22517 for ; Tue, 17 Oct 1995 11:31:58 -0700 Received: from localhost by maytag.graphics.cornell.edu; (5.65/1.1.8.2/07Nov94-0649PM) id AA04243; Tue, 17 Oct 1995 14:30:16 -0400 Message-Id: <9510171830.AA04243@maytag.graphics.cornell.edu> X-Mailer: exmh version 1.6gamma 3/31/95 To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: news-to-mail gateways and spam Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Tue, 17 Oct 95 14:30:15 -0400 From: Mitch Collinsworth X-Mts: smtp Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Hi all, Those of you who run gateways between mailing lists and newsgroups are well aware of the problems created by news spammers, who are much more numerous and prolific than e-mail spammers. The spam goes through the gateway to the mailing list the second it arrives. The cancel message from one of the spam cancellers comes along some time later and cleans up your news spool, but can't do anything for the mailing list since the spam has already gone out. What to do? Moderate your mailing list or the news-to-mail gateway? An acceptable solution for some, but not for many others. One idea I've heard raised is to insert a delay in the gateway to allow time for the cancel message to catch the spam before it crosses the gateway. That of course slows everything down, but if you can live with that then maybe it's ok. It probably slows things less on average than moderating the gateway or the entire list. And you really only need to do it on the news-to-mail side of the gateway. Below is a perl script I just put together to do this for INN. The real question now is how much delay is sufficient. I suppose that's partly a tradeoff against how much delay you're willing to insert into the process. I'm interested in feedback on this point. I'm thinking of modifying the delay to be longer on weekends than during the week. Partly because the big news spammers seem to hit more often on weekends and the spam cancellers are probably away from their posts more then. And I'm sure my list members are away from the net more on weekends, so extra delay should be less objectionable then. -Mitch ----------- #!/usr/local/bin/perl # delayfeed: Take an INN file feed and delay for a specified time period. # After delay invoke a program feed. Intended purpose is for delaying a # news --> mail gateway to allow time for spam cancellations to catch up # before the spam traverses the gateway. # # NB: This is NOT a news --> mail gateway program. This program is a # feed delaying tool that can be inserted between innd and an existing # news --> mail gateway program. # Installation: # # 1. Assuming your existing INN news --> mail gateway newsfeed entry looks # something like this: # # # News-Mail gateway # my-gw:!*,rec.foo.bar,news.bar.foo\ # :Tp:/var/news/bin/News2Mail # # ... which pipes each incoming article in the specified groups to the # named News2Mail, you should change the feed to look something like # this: # # # Anti-spam gateway # my-gw:!*,rec.foo.bar,news.bar.foo\ # :Tf,Wtf: # # This will create a file feed in your spool/out.going directory. The # feed file will contain time and pathname for each article received. # Like so: # # 813939153 /var/spool/news/rec/foo/bar/2327 # 813941888 /var/spool/news/news/bar/foo/8412 # 813943494 /var/spool/news/news/bar/foo/8413 # # 2. Adjust configuration information below appropriately. # # 3. Add a crontab entry something like this: # # 8,28,48 * * * * su news -c "( /usr/local/scripts/delayfeed )" # (If you have a more modern cron, adjust syntax accordingly. # The point is to make it run as the news user.) # # 4. You will probably want to add a cron script to rotate the log files # to prevent them from growing indefinitely. # configuration info $FEED = 'my-gw'; # name of feed from newsfeeds file $NEWS_SPOOL = '/var/spool/news'; # where the news spool is $CTLINND = '/var/news/bin/ctlinnd'; # path to ctlinnd $N2M = '/var/news/bin/News2Mail'; # path to n2m script $LOG = '/var/log/news/antispamlog'; # where to put our log file $DELAY_TIME = 7200; # minimum delay time in seconds $tmpfile = "$FEED.bch$$"; # temporary file for batching the feed $savefile = "$FEED.save"; # temporary file for rewriting queue $workfile = "$FEED.delay"; # queue of delaying messages # open log file open(LOG,">>$LOG") || die "Can't open $LOG"; chop($date = `date`); print LOG "*** $0 run at $date\n"; # move new feed data from inn's feed file to a temporary batch file chdir "$NEWS_SPOOL/out.going" || &errdie("Can't chdir to $NEWS_SPOOL/out.going"); rename($FEED,$tmpfile); # signal innd to flush output and start new feed file system "$CTLINND flush $FEED"; # append new feed data to existing article delay queue open(BATCH,$tmpfile) || &errdie("Can't open $tmpfile"); open(WORK,">>$workfile") || &errdie("Can't open $workfile"); while() { print WORK $_; } close BATCH; close WORK; unlink $tmpfile; # Loop through the delay queue, feed files that have delayed sufficiently. # Stop when either eof or reach an entry with insufficient accumulated delay. $time_now = time; open(WORK,$workfile) || &errdie("Can't open $workfile"); while() { ($time_rcvd,$path) = split(' ',$_); $delayed = $time_now - $time_rcvd; print LOG "Delayed $delayed:\t$path\t"; if ($delayed > $DELAY_TIME) { if (-e $path) { print LOG "still exists - FEEDING NOW\n"; system "$N2M <$path &"; } else { print LOG "CANCELLED OR EXPIRED\n"; } } else { print LOG "delaying rest of queue some more\n"; # rewrite the delay queue with only current and remaining # articles open(SAVE,">$savefile") || &errdie("Can't open $savefile"); print SAVE $_; while () { print SAVE $_; } close SAVE; close WORK; unlink $workfile || &errdie("Can't unlink $workfile"); rename("$savefile",$workfile); } } close LOG; exit; # errdie: put a death message in the logfile and die. # input: $message # an error message sub errdie { local($message) = @_; print LOG "$message\n"; die $message; } From list-managers-owner Tue Oct 17 12:40:03 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id MAA24325 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 17 Oct 1995 12:21:07 -0700 Received: from mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (mycroft.greatcircle.com [198.102.244.35]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with ESMTP id MAA24305 for ; Tue, 17 Oct 1995 12:21:02 -0700 Received: from dorite1.iquest.net by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.10/SMI-4.1/Brent-950602) id MAA20483; Tue, 17 Oct 1995 12:11:51 -0700 Received: from ts10-ind-12.iquest.net by dorite1.iquest.net with smtp (Smail3.1.28.1 #16) id m0t5HQx-00035FC; Tue, 17 Oct 95 14:12 EST Message-Id: Date: Tue, 17 Oct 95 14:12 EST X-Sender: amys@pop.iquest.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: PMDAtropos@aol.com, list-managers@greatcircle.com From: amys@iquest.net (Amy Stinson) Subject: Re: Full mailboxes Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 05:53 PM 10/16/95 -0400, PMDAtropos@aol.com wrote: >As always, I'm happy to pass suggestions and arguments for or against what >AOL is doing vis-a-vis e-mail on to the mail team. > David, Have them fix their mail readers so they can handle list mail better. I plan to re-sign onto AOL with the 2.5 software so I can see how list mail comes in, both as individual and digest emails, so I can offer some intelligent input (rather than the ranting that's going on in my head right now) on how to do replies better. Right now, the big 3 (AOL, CIS, and Prodigy) cause me the biggest headaches with list administration. Amy Stinson From list-managers-owner Tue Oct 17 14:30:04 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id OAA28383 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 17 Oct 1995 14:21:15 -0700 Received: from mailhub.hcl.com (mhoutside.hcl.com [204.101.87.120]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with ESMTP id OAA28367 for ; Tue, 17 Oct 1995 14:21:10 -0700 Received: from rudy.hcl.com (rudy.hcl.com [198.231.99.165]) by mailhub.hcl.com (8.6.12/8.6.5) with SMTP id RAA25985; Tue, 17 Oct 1995 17:25:16 -0400 Message-Id: <199510172125.RAA25985@mailhub.hcl.com> X-Sender: rudy@hcl.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.1.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 17 Oct 1995 17:17:27 -0400 To: Mitch Collinsworth , list-managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Rudy Amid Subject: Re: news-to-mail gateways and spam Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Thanks for the script. Where do you get the mail-to-news gateway? Or visa-versa. Rudy --- Rudy Amid (rudy@hcl.com) SysAdmin: Hummingbird Comms., Ltd., Toronto Canada ramid@nyx.cs.du.edu (Public Access Unix System) Internet Relay Chat: Radix // #include URL: http://nyx10.cs.du.edu:8001/~ramid \X/ /* My Opinions, Only */ From list-managers-owner Wed Oct 18 08:01:00 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id HAA27954 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 18 Oct 1995 07:57:28 -0700 Received: from lepomis.psych.upenn.edu (LEPOMIS.PSYCH.UPENN.EDU [130.91.68.34]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with SMTP id HAA27941 for ; Wed, 18 Oct 1995 07:57:24 -0700 Received: by lepomis.psych.upenn.edu (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA38449; Wed, 18 Oct 1995 10:13:07 -0400 Date: Wed, 18 Oct 1995 10:13:07 -0400 From: rowe@lepomis.psych.upenn.edu (Mickey Rowe) Message-Id: <9510181413.AA38449@lepomis.psych.upenn.edu> To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: what's the deal with nova.novanet.org? Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk My apologies if this subject has already come up (I only receive this list as a digest...), but I'm curious to know if anyone else is noticing some extremely flaky behavior by nova.novanet.org. I've written to the postmaster at that site, but not heard anything in response yet; I'd like to know if all the problems I'm having with them are a rare fluke, or if they seriously need to be told to get their act together. So far as I can tell, the first of the novanet people to subscribe to my list did so last Thursday. By Sunday, two others had subscribed and all three of them were bouncing mail with Recipient's mailbox too full to hold your e-mail. error messages. On Monday a fourth subscribed and similarly started bouncing mail. On Tuesday, a fifth person subscribed and the *welcome* message bounced back to me with the same error message. This morning, another person queried my host to find out what lists exist here, and the response bounced back with a "NO SUCH USER" error. On top of all of these shenanigans, when mail from my list bounces from novanet, the bounce reports go back to the authors of original messages instead of to either me or the list. The list is managed with listproc 6.0c, and although that behavior is not unheard of, it is uncommon in my experience. Is anybody else starting to feel inundated by problems from novanet, or am I just really unlucky right now? Thanks, -- Mickey Rowe (rowe@lepomis.psych.upenn.edu) From list-managers-owner Wed Oct 18 09:30:08 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id JAA00443 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 18 Oct 1995 09:19:37 -0700 Received: from mail04.mail.aol.com (mail04.mail.aol.com [152.163.172.53]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with ESMTP id JAA00436 for ; Wed, 18 Oct 1995 09:19:34 -0700 From: PMDAtropos@aol.com Received: by mail04.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id MAA13995; Wed, 18 Oct 1995 12:17:49 -0400 Date: Wed, 18 Oct 1995 12:17:49 -0400 Message-ID: <951018121749_75225255@mail04.mail.aol.com> To: spam-l@searn.sunet.se, list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Spamking strikes again, with another attempt to implicate AOL. Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk SpamKing is spamming again (clipped from a report I just got): >Return-Path: >Received: from DEARN (NJE origin SMTP@DEARN) by VM.GMD.DE (LMail V1.2b/1.8b) >wit >h BSMTP id 0038; Wed, 18 Oct 1995 14:22:56 +0100 >Received: from ICSI.Net by vm.gmd.de (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with TCP; > Wed, 18 Oct 95 14:22:47 +0100 >Received: from [199.1.107.23] by ICSI.Net (5.x/SMI-SVR4) > id AD24808; Wed, 18 Oct 1995 07:55:59 -0500 >Date: Wed, 18 Oct 1995 07:55:59 -0500 >X-Sender: 978dbn.mail.icsi.net (Unverified) >Message-Id: >Mime-Version: 1.0 >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >To: (Recipient list suppressed) >From: TA.1246*@aol.com (DISCOUNT COMPUTER CO) >Subject: WE HAVE EXCEPTIONAL BARGAINS! "TA.1246*" is -NOT- an AOL address -- AOL addresses cannot contain spaces or asterisks. The point of origin appears to be ICSI.NET (from `whois 199.1.107.`): Internet Connect Services, Inc (NETBLK-SPRINT-C7016F) 202 w goodwin victoria, TX 77901 US Netname: SPRINT-C7016F Netblock: 199.1.96.0 - 199.1.111.0 Coordinator: Trew, Grady (GT24) grady@ICSI.NET (512) 572-9987 Internet Connect Services, Inc. (ICSI-DOM) 202 W. Goodwin Victoria, TX 77901 Domain Name: ICSI.NET Administrative Contact: Suarez, Philip (PS87) philip@ICSI.NET (512) 572-9987 (FAX) (512) 572-8193 Technical Contact, Zone Contact: Trew, Grady (GT24) grady@ICSI.NET (512) 572-9987 The spam includes CompuServe addresses as contacts as well. I've copied the ICSI admins on one report I received. -- __ David B. O'Donnell (atropos@aol.net, PMDAtropos@aol.com) \/ AOL Internet Feedback/Response/Information Team Manager Tel. +1 703/448-8700 x3725 - FAX +1 703/883-1514 Belief-L, GLB-News -Press -Discuss, SoftRevu List Owner/Editor http://www.cais.com/atropos/ - "The spam stops here." From list-managers-owner Wed Oct 18 09:43:33 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id JAA00867 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 18 Oct 1995 09:41:09 -0700 Received: from netcom11.netcom.com (netcom11.netcom.com [192.100.81.121]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with ESMTP id JAA00860 for ; Wed, 18 Oct 1995 09:41:06 -0700 Received: by netcom11.netcom.com (8.6.12/Netcom) id JAA20678; Wed, 18 Oct 1995 09:38:19 -0700 Date: Wed, 18 Oct 1995 09:38:18 -0700 (PDT) From: "[Allison DeCamara]" Subject: Creating a list To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I am a librarian at a small research institution and I have been given the task to create a listserv for the institution. It would be a closed list with a limited number of members and would be used for announcements and discussion. It would mainly be for the people who are associated with the institute but who live all around the country. The institute would be the moderator. I need to know how to get started and exactly what needs to be done to put a list of this nature together. Any and all help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks!! -Allison De Camara mijcfajd@netcom.com From list-managers-owner Wed Oct 18 10:01:33 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id JAA01127 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 18 Oct 1995 09:47:24 -0700 Received: from sgi.sgi.com (SGI.COM [192.48.153.1]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with ESMTP id JAA01120 for ; Wed, 18 Oct 1995 09:47:21 -0700 Received: from cthulhu.engr.sgi.com by sgi.sgi.com via ESMTP (950405.SGI.8.6.12/910110.SGI) id JAA14649; Wed, 18 Oct 1995 09:45:35 -0700 Received: from lunch.engr.sgi.com by cthulhu.engr.sgi.com via ESMTP (950511.SGI.8.6.12.PATCH526/911001.SGI) id JAA01917; Wed, 18 Oct 1995 09:30:09 -0700 Received: by lunch.engr.sgi.com (950511.SGI.8.6.12.PATCH526/940406.SGI.AUTO) id JAA27292; Wed, 18 Oct 1995 09:30:08 -0700 From: close@lunch.engr.sgi.com (Diane Barlow Close) Message-Id: <199510181630.JAA27292@lunch.engr.sgi.com> Subject: Re: stale mail from AOL To: mkc@graphics.cornell.edu (Mitch Collinsworth) Date: Wed, 18 Oct 1995 09:30:07 -0700 (PDT) Cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com In-Reply-To: <9510171747.AA04034@maytag.graphics.cornell.edu> from "Mitch Collinsworth" at Oct 17, 1995 01:47:56 PM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL0a8] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Mitch Collinsworth wrote: > ... Why did I just last night, October 16, receive the [AOL] > message below? 8 days old! Hey, I can answer this one! I just finished asking David the same thing. The gist of his answer is that one of their mail-admins decided to try to establish multiple mailqueues, categorising mail based on their likelihood of delivery. The inevitable bug that cropped up caused several mails to be delayed well beyond when they should've been, so now there's a bunch of really late AOL mail being delivered now. It should clear itself up in a couple weeks. -- Diane Close close@lunch.engr.sgi.com I'm at lunch all day. :-) From list-managers-owner Wed Oct 18 10:45:06 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id KAA02909 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 18 Oct 1995 10:41:05 -0700 Received: from maytag.graphics.cornell.edu (MAYTAG.GRAPHICS.CORNELL.EDU [128.84.247.157]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with SMTP id KAA02895 for ; Wed, 18 Oct 1995 10:41:00 -0700 Received: from localhost by maytag.graphics.cornell.edu; (5.65/1.1.8.2/07Nov94-0649PM) id AA15450; Wed, 18 Oct 1995 13:39:07 -0400 Message-Id: <9510181739.AA15450@maytag.graphics.cornell.edu> X-Mailer: exmh version 1.6gamma 3/31/95 To: Rudy Amid Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: news-to-mail gateways and spam In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 17 Oct 95 17:17:27 EDT." <199510172125.RAA25985@mailhub.hcl.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Wed, 18 Oct 95 13:39:06 -0400 From: Mitch Collinsworth X-Mts: smtp Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >Thanks for the script. Where do you get the mail-to-news gateway? >Or visa-versa. Yeah, I figgered someone would ask that. There are probably others on this list who can answer this question better than I. I don't particularly recommend the one I'm using. It was written by another admin here at Cornell and is all in sh, sed, and awk. Difficult to read and understand, and I prefer to have a good understanding of the scripts I use for my lists. I've thought about rewriting it in perl, but then again it's still working so I concentrate on other fires. I've heard of one written by Rich Salz but I have no experience with it. There are no doubt others out there. More importantly, I just discovered a stupid queueing bug in the delayfeed script I posted yesterday. Under certain circumstances it will gate a news article to your News2Mail script more than once. Please throw it away and replace it with the one below. Am still interested in feedback on how long to set the delay period to in order to have reasonable likelihood of getting the cancel message. -Mitch --------------- #!/usr/local/bin/perl # delayfeed: Take an INN file feed and delay for a specified time period. # After delay invoke a program feed. Intended purpose is for delaying a # news --> mail gateway to allow time for spam cancellations to catch up # before the spam traverses the gateway. # # NB: This is NOT a news --> mail gateway program. This program is a # feed delaying tool that can be inserted between innd and an existing # news --> mail gateway program. # 951017 MKC Initial version. # 951018 MKC Fix queuing bug -- under certain conditions articles were # being duplicated. # Installation: # # 1. Assuming your existing INN news --> mail gateway newsfeed entry looks # something like this: # # # News-Mail gateway # my-gw:!*,rec.foo.bar,news.bar.foo\ # :Tp:/var/news/bin/News2Mail # # ... which pipes each incoming article in the specified groups to the # named News2Mail, you should change the feed to look something like # this: # # # Anti-SPAM gateway # my-gw:!*,rec.foo.bar,news.bar.foo\ # :Tf,Wtf: # # This will create a file feed in your spool/out.going directory. The # feed file will contain time and pathname for each article received. # Like so: # # 813939153 /var/spool/news/rec/foo/bar/2327 # 813941888 /var/spool/news/news/bar/foo/8412 # 813943494 /var/spool/news/news/bar/foo/8413 # # 2. Adjust configuration information below appropriately. # # 3. Add a crontab entry something like this: # # 8,28,48 * * * * su news -c "( /usr/local/scripts/delayfeed )" # (If you have a more modern cron, adjust syntax accordingly. # The point is to make it run as the news user.) # # 4. You will probably want to add a cron script to rotate the log files # to prevent them from growing indefinitely. # configuration info $FEED = 'my-gw'; # name of feed from newsfeeds file $NEWS_SPOOL = '/var/spool/news'; # where the news spool is $CTLINND = '/var/news/bin/ctlinnd'; # path to ctlinnd $N2M = '/var/news/bin/News2Mail'; # path to n2m script $LOG = '/var/log/news/antispamlog'; # where to put our log file $DELAY_TIME = 7200; # minimum delay time in seconds $tmpfile = "$FEED.bch$$"; # temporary file for batching the feed $savefile = "$FEED.save"; # temporary file for rewriting queue $workfile = "$FEED.delay"; # queue of delaying messages # open log file open(LOG,">>$LOG") || die "Can't open $LOG"; chop($date = `date`); print LOG "*** $0 run at $date\n"; # move new feed data from inn's feed file to a temporary batch file chdir "$NEWS_SPOOL/out.going" || &errdie("Can't chdir to $NEWS_SPOOL/out.going"); rename($FEED,$tmpfile); # signal innd to flush output and start new feed file system "$CTLINND flush $FEED"; # append new feed data to existing article delay queue open(BATCH,$tmpfile) || &errdie("Can't open $tmpfile"); open(WORK,">>$workfile") || &errdie("Can't open $workfile"); while() { print WORK $_; } close BATCH; close WORK; unlink $tmpfile; # Loop through the delay queue, feed files that have delayed sufficiently. # Stop when either eof or reach an entry with insufficient accumulated delay. # Save articles that need further delay. $time_now = time; open(WORK,$workfile) || &errdie("Can't open $workfile"); open(SAVE,">$savefile") || &errdie("Can't open $savefile"); while() { ($time_rcvd,$path) = split(' ',$_); $delayed = $time_now - $time_rcvd; print LOG "Delayed $delayed:\t$path\t"; if ($delayed > $DELAY_TIME) { if (-e $path) { print LOG "still exists - FEEDING NOW\n"; system "$N2M <$path &"; } else { print LOG "CANCELLED OR EXPIRED\n"; } } else { print LOG "delaying rest of queue some more\n"; # save this and all remaining articles in delay queue print SAVE $_; while () { print SAVE $_; } } } close SAVE; close WORK; # replace old delay queue with new unlink $workfile || &errdie("Can't unlink $workfile"); rename("$savefile",$workfile); close LOG; exit; # errdie: put a death message in the logfile and die. # input: $message # an error message sub errdie { local($message) = @_; print LOG "$message\n"; die $message; } From list-managers-owner Wed Oct 18 12:35:36 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id MAA05604 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 18 Oct 1995 12:21:12 -0700 Received: from netcomsv.netcom.com (uucp11.netcom.com [163.179.3.11]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with ESMTP id MAA05595 for ; Wed, 18 Oct 1995 12:21:08 -0700 Received: from scruz.UUCP by netcomsv.netcom.com with UUCP (8.6.12/SMI-4.1) id MAA25097; Wed, 18 Oct 1995 12:00:38 -0700 Received: by scruz (NetXpress 2.53) via UUCP id C932DB; Wed, 18 Oct 1995 14:00:32 -0400 To: LIST-MANAGERS@GREATCIRCLE.COM From: cadex.sc@scbbs-bo.com (Cadex Sc) X-Mailer: NetXpress 2.53 Date: Wed, 18 Oct 1995 11:16:00 -0400 Organization: Santa Cruz BBS - BOLIVIA - (591) (3) 36-7046 Message-ID: <18e.20576.33@scbbs-bo.com> Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk LISTS SHORT ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Internet: cadex.sc@scbbs-bo.com (Cadex Sc) This message was processed by NetXpress from Merlin Systems Inc. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- From list-managers-owner Wed Oct 18 13:07:03 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id MAA06956 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 18 Oct 1995 12:55:09 -0700 Received: from oodis01.hill.af.mil (oodis01.hill.af.mil [192.12.100.3]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with ESMTP id MAA06948 for ; Wed, 18 Oct 1995 12:54:58 -0700 Message-Id: <199510181954.OAA23149@oodis01.hill.af.mil> Received: (from kburton@localhost) by oodis01.hill.af.mil (8.6.12/3.14) id OAA23149 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Wed, 18 Oct 1995 14:54:49 -0500 Date: Wed, 18 Oct 95 13:54:48 -0600 From: kburton@oodis01.hill.af.mil (SSgt Kelly Burton) Subject: Out To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Get me out of here. Let the flames begin :) Kelly A. Burton kburton@oodis01.hill.af.mil Author of KREADER (look for Windows Version Soon!) From list-managers-owner Wed Oct 18 17:00:07 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id QAA16608 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 18 Oct 1995 16:57:57 -0700 Received: (smap@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id QAA16585 for ; Wed, 18 Oct 1995 16:57:53 -0700 Received: from uucp-gw.cc.uh.edu(129.7.1.11) by miles via smap (V1.3) id sma016578; Wed Oct 18 16:57:18 1995 Received: from Taronga.COM by UUCP-GW.CC.UH.EDU with UUCP id AA02509 (5.67a/IDA-1.5 for list-managers@greatcircle.com); Wed, 18 Oct 1995 18:53:38 -0500 Received: (from arielle@localhost) by bonkers.taronga.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id QAA14792 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Wed, 18 Oct 1995 16:03:01 -0500 From: arielle@taronga.com (Stephanie da Silva) Message-Id: <199510182103.QAA14792@bonkers.taronga.com> Subject: Re: lists To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Date: Wed, 18 Oct 1995 16:03:00 -0500 (CDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Content-Length: 1526 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Sorry about the delay in commenting on this thread, but we were on vacation last week, 3 1/2 days of it coincedentally were spent in Albuquerque. We briefly flirted with the idea of cruising by Slaton's house and perhaps take a picture of it for posterity, but decided we didn't have the time for such nonsense. :-) Kjetil Torgrim Homme: > You should be aware that most mailing > list administrators (myself included) disapprove of having their lists > in catalogues and registers without being asked for permission first. This is a primary consideration of mine. I don't solicit for lists, I list only those that are sent to me for exactly the reason you mention. Still, the biggest problem I have with this sort of effort is that even though the intentions of Mr. Rider seem to be honest, he's essentially handing these lists to the spammers on a silver platter. It bugs me that people like Slaton take the PAML and abuse it, and there are only 1500 lists in it. I've estimated that there are upwards of 20,000 lists out there, and that probably is a conservative estimate. > Those mailing lists which are public, are generally already listed in > Stephanie da Silva's Publicly Available Mailing Lists list, and there > is no reason for you to duplicate her efforts, The existence of the PAML doesn't preclude anyone else from maintaining their own compilation. From first hand experience, I can believe that the reason most people don't is the sheer amount of effort it takes maintaining a credible document. From list-managers-owner Fri Oct 20 12:44:04 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id MAA09892 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 20 Oct 1995 12:00:41 -0700 Received: (smap@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id MAA09857 for ; Fri, 20 Oct 1995 12:00:28 -0700 Received: from uucp-gw.cc.uh.edu(129.7.1.11) by miles via smap (V1.3) id sma009764; Fri Oct 20 11:59:32 1995 Received: from Taronga.COM by UUCP-GW.CC.UH.EDU with UUCP id AA20895 (5.67a/IDA-1.5 for list-managers@greatcircle.com); Fri, 20 Oct 1995 13:46:20 -0500 Received: (from arielle@localhost) by bonkers.taronga.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id NAA07603 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Fri, 20 Oct 1995 13:24:31 -0500 From: arielle@taronga.com (Stephanie da Silva) Message-Id: <199510201824.NAA07603@bonkers.taronga.com> Subject: Fwd: ["Arturo Garcia : (null)] (fwd) To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Date: Fri, 20 Oct 1995 13:24:31 -0500 (CDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Content-Length: 2010 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Heads up! Bozo alert! Someone from Mexico is sending a much forwarded version of the Good Luck letter to mailing lists.... (someone has been tying up the UUCP link from which we get our mail for hours on end, so you'll probably all receive the letter before you receive this....) Forwarded message: > From abravo@banxico.org.mx Fri Oct 20 12:19:35 1995 > Message-Id: <9510201807.AA12476@fireext> > From: "Armando Bravo Sansores" > Subject: Fwd: ["Arturo Garcia : (null)] > To: csaldiva@mx.oracle.com > Cc: owen@siggraph.org, buikstra@rulfsw.fsw.leidenuniv.nl, cdr@stolaf.edu, > je@world.std.com, sales@bhi90210.com, mosaic-x@ncsa.uiuc.edu, > arielle@taronga.com, chuq@apple.com, muller@camp.rutgers.edu, > listserv@wsyd.com, 2150-r@wsyd.com, james@wsyd.com, > 30something-request@fuggles.acc.virgina.edu, listserv@jhuvm.bitset, > 90210-request@terkel.ucsb.edu, abc-list-request@cwi.nl, > j.hale@latrobe.edu.au, lwb@cs.utexas.edu, msoto@banxico.org.mx > Date: Fri, 20 Oct 95 11:06:39 PDT > Encoding: 606 TEXT > > >Return-Path: > >Received: from [170.70.1.31] (pc1.31) by fireext (5.x/SMI-SVR4) > > id AA08501; Wed, 18 Oct 1995 11:59:22 -0700 > >Message-Id: <9510181859.AA08501@fireext> > >From: "Arturo Garcia Hernandez" > >To: Osita > >Cc: Adriana Garcia , > > CriCri , > > Carlos Huidobro , > > Karl Stevens , lacortes@banxico.org.mx, > > abravo@banxico.org.mx, chinchot@banxico.org.mx, rmena@banxico.org.mx, > > hprado@banxico.org.mx, mperez@banxico.org.mx, jorduna@banxico.org.mx, > > Jianyu You Lin > >Date: Wed, 18 Oct 95 11:54:41 PDT > >Encoding: 1 TEXT , 579 MESSAGE , 4 TEXT > >Content-Type: text > >Status: RO > > > >Que siga la fiesta!!! > > (588 lines deleted) From list-managers-owner Fri Oct 20 12:44:12 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id LAA09776 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 20 Oct 1995 11:59:35 -0700 Received: (smap@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id LAA09768 for ; Fri, 20 Oct 1995 11:59:28 -0700 Received: from mycroft.greatcircle.com(198.102.244.35) by miles via smap (V1.3) id sma009763; Fri Oct 20 11:58:34 1995 Received: from lepomis.psych.upenn.edu by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.10/SMI-4.1/Brent-950602) id LAA05366; Fri, 20 Oct 1995 11:49:19 -0700 Received: by lepomis.psych.upenn.edu (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA21887; Fri, 20 Oct 1995 14:51:27 -0400 Date: Fri, 20 Oct 1995 14:51:27 -0400 From: rowe@lepomis.psych.upenn.edu (Mickey Rowe) Message-Id: <9510201851.AA21887@lepomis.psych.upenn.edu> To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: other people's homework... Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk A couple of days ago I wrote to this list asking if others have recently had trouble with mail from the host: NOVA.NOVANET.ORG. I no longer expect that any of you will have experienced what they're putting me through, but since I know a few things now that I didn't know before, I'd like to widen this discussion to see if I'm being unreasonable with my current state of displeasure. I maintain the dinosaur mailing list which is a fairly serious forum -- professional paleontologists and others with similar training frequently participate in it. If a college or university offers a course about dinosaurs and they recommend that students subscribe to the mailing list, I have no problem with that. But... At least twice during the past 15 months, an instructor of a general course on electronic communications has given students the assignment of subscribing to a mailing list, and (although I have yet to directly confirm this since the people I've managed to communicate with have been generally rather clueless and uncooperative) my list was apparently given to the students as one of a few lists they could choose to assault. Since the students are just learning how to use e-mail, they frequently make mistakes. In the case of nova.novanet.org, the machine itself is seriously misconfigured, which has made my troubles over the span of this week much worse than they would have been just from the newbie assault. Now, given that some students have explicitly stated that they are not interested in the subject material of the list, and given that they're causing me to spend my time educating them (or at least cleaning up after them), I'm rather upset by the fact that any instructor would do this. In my opinion, the instructor should set up a fake list just for the purpose of having the students learn how to subscribe and unsubscribe. A second alternative would be to give them access to the PAML or some other huge list to at least spread the burden around. Has anybody else here suffered grief from incidents like I've just described, or am I just "lucky"? Thanks for your consideration, -- Mickey Rowe (rowe@lepomis.psych.upenn.edu) From list-managers-owner Fri Oct 20 19:00:02 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id SAA24891 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 20 Oct 1995 18:59:46 -0700 Received: (smap@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id SAA24867 for ; Fri, 20 Oct 1995 18:59:43 -0700 Received: from access5.digex.net(205.197.245.196) by miles via smap (V1.3) id sma024856; Fri Oct 20 18:58:44 1995 Received: (from asgilman@localhost) by access5.digex.net (8.6.12/8.6.12) id VAA02017 ; for ; Fri, 20 Oct 1995 21:57:00 -0400 From: Al Gilman Message-Id: <199510210157.VAA02017@access5.digex.net> Subject: Re: other people's homework... To: rowe@lepomis.psych.upenn.edu (Mickey Rowe) Date: Fri, 20 Oct 1995 21:56:59 -0400 (EDT) Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: <9510201851.AA21887@lepomis.psych.upenn.edu> from "Mickey Rowe" at Oct 20, 95 02:51:27 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24beta] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 407 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Mickey, On the BITNET HELP-NET list there were some messages from people I suspected were on a homework assignment to join and post. May have needed to bring in a reply. Reasonably airhead stuff. But then, HELP-NET is a sitting duck; one of its main purposes in life is newbies. Nothing as grievous as what you have been through. Al Gilman asgilman@access.digex.net http://access.digex.net/~asgilman/ From list-managers-owner Fri Oct 20 20:12:41 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id UAA26318 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 20 Oct 1995 20:02:22 -0700 Received: (smap@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id UAA26301 for ; Fri, 20 Oct 1995 20:02:18 -0700 Received: from uucp-gw.cc.uh.edu(129.7.1.11) by miles via smap (V1.3) id sma026267; Fri Oct 20 20:01:25 1995 Received: from Taronga.COM by UUCP-GW.CC.UH.EDU with UUCP id AA24925 (5.67a/IDA-1.5 for list-managers@greatcircle.com); Fri, 20 Oct 1995 21:51:43 -0500 Received: (from arielle@localhost) by bonkers.taronga.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id VAA18130 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Fri, 20 Oct 1995 21:26:28 -0500 From: arielle@taronga.com (Stephanie da Silva) Message-Id: <199510210226.VAA18130@bonkers.taronga.com> Subject: Earning MONEY via the Internet! **** FAST **** (fwd) To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Date: Fri, 20 Oct 1995 21:26:28 -0500 (CDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Content-Length: 5582 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Twice in one day, must be a record. I was also blessed with 2 copies of this. Can't tell if all the addresses are mailing list related, but at least several of them are. This one I left intact, since it's probably all relevant. Oh, this is the Seychelles phone scam, the cost of the call is actually closer to $100. Forwarded message: > From slyder@MTS.Net Fri Oct 20 21:02:50 1995 > Message-Id: <9510210126.AA37912@bottom.MTS.Net> > Comments: Authenticated sender is > From: "M&L P. Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada" > Organization: VRSlyder > To: BIFEM-L@BROWNVM.BITNET, BIFEM-L@BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU, BISEXU-L@BROWNVM.BITNET, > BISEXU-L@BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU, acimwkbk@latrobe.edu.au, > mailserv-reply@wunet.wustl.edu, alwatson@sedona.net, > Smayo@wpcusrgrp.mb.ca, winvn.ksc.nasa.gov@bottom.MTS.Net, > MBretherton@cmutual.com.au, brydon@tulsa.dowell.slb.com, > jcooper@netcom.com, mdowns@eos.arc.nasa.gov, > dumoulin@titan.ksc.nasa.gov, downsm@titan.ksc.nasa.gov, > finken@conware.de, gardnerd@keystone.ksc.nasa.gov, jglas@tdycont.com, > ishidou@yhp.hp.com, jim@hardees.Rutgers.EDU, > tmenshik@hpcvitlm.cv.hp.com, cnolan@tcd.ie, pearse_w_r@bt-web.bt.co.uk, > jpiraino@execpc.com, mrr@scss3.cl.msu.edu, rushing@titan.ksc.nasa.gov, > arielle@taronga.com, spaf@purdue.edu, ODAAT@bgu.edu, james@wsyd.com, > agarg@ces.cwru.edu, JHBercovitz@lbl.gov, J.Hale@latrobe.edu.au, > dirk.offis.be@bottom.MTS.Net, wtm@bunker.shel.isc-br.com, > frabbani@epas.utoronto.ca, jp@unl.edu, mlacabe@best.com, > vdpoll@fwi.uva.nl, odat@ccnet.com, kinnaman@eden.com, > stevea@vast.unsw.edu.au, mbm2y@virginia.edu > Date: Wed, 18 Oct 1995 20:38:49 +0000 > Subject: Earning MONEY via the Internet! **** FAST **** > Reply-To: slyder@MTS.Net > X-Confirm-Reading-To: slyder@mts.net > X-Pmrqc: 1 > Return-Receipt-To: slyder@MTS.Net > Priority: normal > X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.01) > > Yeah.. there is finally a way to earn big bucks on the internet! > > Your Total Investment is only $1.50. Yep,, thats right... earn big > bucks with only a buck and a half investment!. > > IMPOSSIBLE! You say!.. I say not. > > For less than most of us spend on Lottery Tickets each week or in > some cases Daily!.... you can be on your way to earning thousands of > dollars using your Internet Access!. > > In the same way I am sending you this message in the hopes that you > take this opportunity for yourself, you simply contact everyone you > know on the internet also and make this Once In A LifeTime > Opportunity available to them also, and so on and so on...... > > Soon, you'll be accuring hundreds, even thousands of dollars in your > account all you had to do was contact people and convince them that > for a measly $1.50 they too could start earning this type of money. > > OK... so now you want to know how this is done? > > You call a phone number I'll provide at the end of this message and > enter a 6 digit number I'll also provide. When you do this your > phone bill will be automatically charged $1.50 ->Your Investment. > > You will then receive an account number and a secret PIN number for > your account. You simply distribute your account number with the > phone number and have others make the call. That is all there is to > it!. > > You will earn 50 cents for each person that calls in your account > number. You also earn an additional 25 cents each time one of their > contacts calls in the account number of the person you initially > contacted, and another 25 cents for each person these people get to > call in!... It really is just that easy! > > Imaging.... for every 100 people that call in your number you will > earn $50.00 US Dollars. When each one of these people get a 100 > people to make the call, you earn an additional $2,500.00 US Dollars, > and when they each 100 people to call, you will have earned a > WHOPPING $250,000.00 US Dollars. > > And all you had to do was as people to invest a $1.50. Too simple > eh! > > Well thats what I thought!.... then came my check for $1365.50 US in > just 3 weeks, and my account is still accumulating and the people > I've told about this opportunity are also beginning to earn EASY > MONEY!. > > So whats holding you back... WHAT HAVE YOU GOT TO LOSE EXCEPT FOR A > $1.50 ON A CHANCE THAT COULD CHANGE YOUR LIFE. > > Please contact my WEBSITE for additional information if you are > interested in having an Money Making Opportunity that works while > your Sleeping! http://www.mts.net/~slyder/index.html > > The Phone Number is : 011-24-831-3131 > This is an International phone number located in Canada and will > charge a flatrate of $1.50 for the call. (This is your investment!) > > Enter the account number : 948770 when requested and simply follow > the instructions... There are no other charges than the $1.50 and > your on your way.. Just call or write People you know, or do mass > mailings,, let everyone know... > > With over 30 million people on the Internet today... It's just too > easy to make yourself and everyone else a ton of money for only a > $1.50. > > If you follow my advice and the instructions,, give it your best shot > and don't make money... write me and I'll be happy to send you your > $1.50 investment.. > > Regards, > > Mike > > Email to: slyder@mts.net (Mike) > Lizette@mts.net (Liz) > Web Site:www.mts.net/~slyder/index.html > From list-managers-owner Fri Oct 20 23:30:02 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id XAA01622 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 20 Oct 1995 23:27:52 -0700 Received: (smap@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id XAA01606 for ; Fri, 20 Oct 1995 23:27:47 -0700 Received: from uucp-gw.cc.uh.edu(129.7.1.11) by miles via smap (V1.3) id sma001600; Fri Oct 20 23:27:35 1995 Received: from Taronga.COM by UUCP-GW.CC.UH.EDU with UUCP id AA26208 (5.67a/IDA-1.5 for list-managers@greatcircle.com); Sat, 21 Oct 1995 01:19:06 -0500 Received: (from arielle@localhost) by bonkers.taronga.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id BAA22684 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Sat, 21 Oct 1995 01:17:53 -0500 From: arielle@taronga.com (Stephanie da Silva) Message-Id: <199510210617.BAA22684@bonkers.taronga.com> Subject: APOLOGY FOR -- MAKING MONEY FAST -- To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Date: Sat, 21 Oct 1995 01:17:53 -0500 (CDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Content-Length: 1764 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk And a very fast retraction on this one (albeit weith the old 'my account was compromised' excuse). ["entrepreneurially spirited", I like that...] Forwarded message: > From slyder@MTS.Net Sat Oct 21 01:08:42 1995 > Message-Id: <9510210520.AA20900@bottom.MTS.Net> > Comments: Authenticated sender is > From: "M&L P. Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada" > Organization: VRSlyder > Date: Thu, 19 Oct 1995 00:36:35 +0000 > Subject: APOLOGY FOR -- MAKING MONEY FAST --- > Reply-To: slyder@MTS.Net > Return-Receipt-To: slyder@MTS.Net > > To all concerned! > > It would appear that an apology is in order regarding a message(s) > which have been sent from my email address over the past few days. > > I deeply regret that you have been subjected to this blatent misuse > of this communication medium. I can only offer that my > entrepreneurialy spirited son has managed to access my personal > system and issued an item from my webpage to everyone, utilizing a variety > of contacts and maillists to which we (Liz and myself) subscribe > for his own personal gain. > > Be assured that he is currently being most properly punished for his > disregard of the privacy of others (Including my own). > > I can only offer my humblest apology and my deepest regrets for any > intrusions this may have caused. > > I hope you can accept it... and know that except for the lists to > which we have been lurking on for so long... Liz and I will ensure > that this will not occur again. > > Respectfully and with deepest regret, > > Mike & Liz > > (crawling back into the corner where we lurk!) > Email to: slyder@mts.net (Mike) > Lizette@mts.net (Liz ) > Web Site: http://www.mts.net/~slyder/index.html > From list-managers-owner Sat Oct 21 16:12:04 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id PAA19714 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 21 Oct 1995 15:39:30 -0700 Received: (smap@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id PAA19661 for ; Sat, 21 Oct 1995 15:39:21 -0700 Received: from server.postmodern.com(199.172.54.72) by miles via smap (V1.3) id sma019649; Sat Oct 21 15:38:50 1995 Received: (from mcb@localhost) by server.postmodern.com (8.6.10/8.6.10-mcb-951019) id PAA12986; Sat, 21 Oct 1995 15:36:45 -0700 Message-Id: <199510212236.PAA12986@server.postmodern.com> From: mcb@postmodern.com (Michael C. Berch) Date: Sat, 21 Oct 1995 15:36:45 +0000 X-Mailer: Mail User's Shell (7.2.5 10/14/92) To: spam@zorch.sf-bay.org, list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Spam from Johnson-Grace Co.? Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk A week or so ago I got a long commercial message from "TechSupport@jgc.com", with the subject line "Introducing Johnson-Grace". The message purported to introduce some software product for Web publishers, basically a new graphics image format (yawn) and some proprietary software to use it. It was sent to my personal mailbox, and looked spammish, but being a magazine editor I get a zillion press releases and that sort of thing so I didn't think anything of it. A couple of days ago the same message went out to my Sinead O'Connor mailing list. Harrumph. I complained (a "DO NOT SEND SPAM TO INTERNET MAILING LISTS" form letter) to the author, and the domain contact for the domain, which happened to be their service provider. To their credit, the ISP (hlc.net == inter-net.net) responded with an apology within about an *hour*, and told me, "The client has been reminded of the contract clause stating that NO BLANKKET EMAIL IS TO BE SENT. They now know that if they persist, we will be disconnecting them without further notice. Again, our apologies for any problems or discomfort." Then I got a message from a Karine Perttula at Johnson-Grace, who wrote: "Please accept our sincere apology for sending this letter to the your mailing list. Thank you for your polite response. We have been sending our letter to Web Publishers and accidentally hit the Sinead O'Conner mailing list. It is not our intention to send to any mailing lists." Now, leaving aside the fact that "sending our letter to Web Publishers" sounds like spam to me, I want to see if they're telling the truth, i.e., did anyone else get this on their list? Followups/replies to spam@zorch.sf-bay.org, please. -- Michael C. Berch mcb@postmodern.com From list-managers-owner Sat Oct 21 16:26:44 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id PAA20606 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 21 Oct 1995 15:58:43 -0700 Received: (smap@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id PAA20524 for ; Sat, 21 Oct 1995 15:58:30 -0700 Received: from tango.rahul.net(192.160.13.5) by miles via smap (V1.3) id sma020508; Sat Oct 21 15:58:04 1995 Received: from bolero.rahul.net by tango.rahul.net with SMTP id AA12851 (5.67b8/IDA-1.5 for ); Sat, 21 Oct 1995 15:56:01 -0700 Received: from jive.rahul.net by bolero.rahul.net with SMTP id AA29781 (5.67b8/IDA-1.5 for ); Sat, 21 Oct 1995 15:56:01 -0700 Received: by jive.rahul.net (5.67b8/jive-a2i-1.0) id AA15280; Sat, 21 Oct 1995 15:56:00 -0700 Message-Id: <199510212256.AA15280@jive.rahul.net> To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: other people's homework... In-Reply-To: <199510210157.VAA02017@access5.digex.net> Date: Sat, 21 Oct 95 15:56:00 -0700 From: Michelle Dick Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Al Gilman wrote: > Mickey, > > On the BITNET HELP-NET list there were some messages from people > I suspected were on a homework assignment to join and post. May > have needed to bring in a reply. Reasonably airhead stuff. But > then, HELP-NET is a sitting duck; one of its main purposes in > life is newbies. > > Nothing as grievous as what you have been through. I've gotten this too, though so far (knock on wood) none have disrupted the list or caused me extra trouble. Usually they just lurk, post once, sign off, and then send me email saying something like "I'm leaving now, not vegetarian, just joined the list for a class assignment". Shrug. I agree that it's very bad for an instructor to specify lists to choose from (without the list-owners' permission) since this increases the newbie load per list and increases the liklihood that the subscriber is wholely uninterested in the subject of the list. Seems to me that part of the class assignment should be learning how to find lists of interest, no? -- Michelle Dick artemis@rahul.net East Palo Alto, CA Owner, FATFREE Vegetarian Mailing List From list-managers-owner Sat Oct 21 20:26:48 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id UAA06166 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 21 Oct 1995 20:14:30 -0700 Received: (smap@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id UAA06119 for ; Sat, 21 Oct 1995 20:14:23 -0700 Received: from news5.crl.com(165.113.1.25) by miles via smap (V1.3) id sma006075; Sat Oct 21 20:13:32 1995 Received: from nbi.UUCP by news5.crl.com with UUCP id AA09064 (5.65c/IDA-1.502 for list-managers@greatcircle.com); Sat, 21 Oct 1995 19:55:07 -0700 Received: by nbi.com (1.65/waf) via UUCP; Sat, 21 Oct 95 22:52:41 EDT for list-managers@greatcircle.com To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Cyber-Promo and #1-Inter-Link From: leigh@nbi.com (Leigh Melton) Message-Id: <3wqcDD1w165w@nbi.com> Date: Sat, 21 Oct 95 22:47:01 EDT Organization: Burning From The Inside Out Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk This was forwarded to me by an AOL subscriber. I thought it might be of interest to those on this list. David O'Donnell is aware of it; he responded to my query about this subject very quickly and cordially, as always. I have to give AOL credit for changing their TOS to reflect the growing dissatisfaction with bulk e-mailers. Obviously this is hitting spammers where they live, as can be detected from the tone of this email. -* begin inclusion *- [forwards from AOL member deleted] Leigh, We just got this notice and I thought you would like to know! ---- Subj: URGENT! Date: Sat, Oct 21, 1995 1:45 AM CST From: #1-Inter-link@#1-Inter-Link.com X-From: #1-Inter-link@#1-Inter-Link.com (#1-Inter-link) To: cyber-prom@cyber-promo.com IMPORTANT MESSAGE TO ALL AOL MEMBERS!! >From Promo Enterprises: Distribution to: 176,386 AOL members... We have just received an obnoxious, unprofessional notice from Ray Everitt of AOL's Feedback/Responses/Information Team. He has brought to our attention that America Online has changed their Terms of Service policies. AOL members are no longer allowed to send ANY commercial messages through ANY bulk e-mail companies. It does not matter if every recipient gives permission or not! You are simply forbidden from sending commercial messages. If you send a message through any bulk e-mail service, your account will be terminated from this day forth. This new policy troubles us, and we believe it is extremely unfair to you, the paying AOL members. There is no reasonable explanation for this new policy. We believe that your rights are being violated. Ironically, Promo Enterprises was just in the process of negotiating with AOL management about ways to mutually provide a responsible bulk e-mail service, where all AOL members would have the ability to choose if they wished to receive commercial mail or not. Fortunately, Promo Enterprises has adjusted its bulk e-mail services to protect your account status with AOL. We will no longer list AOL addresses in any of our mailings... ATTENTION ADVERTISERS: We will assign each of you a virtual e-mail address on our server. Your new virtual address will be listed in your ads, automatically. Any responses will be immediately forwarded from our server to your AOL e-mail address. TOS will not be able to associate your AOL address with your new virtual address. This will assure that your account with AOL will not be terminated under any circumstances. When you submit your ads to us, you must still include your aol address. We will change the e-mail address for you, and set up your new virtual e-mail service. *There will be no additional charge for this service* Promo Enterprises is dedicated to providing a RESPONSIBLE business-to-business communication service. We are a proud member of the Better Business Bureau. If you feel that this new policy is simply unfair, to say the least, please forward your comments to promo-ent@promo-ent.com and CC: to postmaster@aol.com. If you have any questions regarding this new development, please feel free to call us at (800) 650-9110 or (215) 289-4610. -* end inclusion *- L. --------------------------------------------------------------- *leigh@nbi.com As a matter of fact, I _do_ speak for nbi.com.* "Consequences, schmonsequences, as long as I'm rich." -Daffy Duck From list-managers-owner Mon Oct 23 10:37:37 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id JAA06567 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 23 Oct 1995 09:59:40 -0700 Received: (smap@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id JAA01280 for ; Mon, 23 Oct 1995 09:21:05 -0700 Received: from mycroft.greatcircle.com(198.102.244.35) by miles via smap (V1.3) id smana0259; Mon Oct 23 09:20:34 1995 Received: by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.10/SMI-4.1/Brent-950602) id GAA04786; Mon, 23 Oct 1995 06:07:05 -0700 Received: from skyhawk.ecc.engr.uky.edu(128.163.144.19) by mycroft via smap (V1.3mjr) id sma004784; Mon Oct 23 06:06:34 1995 Received: (from morgan@localhost) by skyhawk.ecc.engr.uky.edu (8.6.10/8.6.10) id JAA25285 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Mon, 23 Oct 1995 09:12:05 -0400 Date: Mon, 23 Oct 1995 09:12:05 -0400 From: Wes Morgan Message-Id: <199510231312.JAA25285@skyhawk.ecc.engr.uky.edu> To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Cyber-Promo... Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >Fortunately, Promo Enterprises has adjusted its bulk e-mail services to >protect your account status with AOL. We will no longer list AOL addresses >in any of our mailings... > >ATTENTION ADVERTISERS: We will assign each of you a virtual e-mail >address on our server. Your new virtual address will be listed in your >ads, automatically. Any responses will be immediately forwarded from our >server to your AOL e-mail address. TOS will not be able to associate your >AOL address with your new virtual address. This will assure that your >account with AOL will not be terminated under any circumstances. I wonder if Promo Enterprises could be convinced to simply leave *all* mailing lists out of their mailings. Perhaps each of us should drop them a note to that effect. --Wes From list-managers-owner Mon Oct 23 10:37:38 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id KAA06748 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 23 Oct 1995 10:02:49 -0700 Received: (smap@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id JAA01552 for ; Mon, 23 Oct 1995 09:22:39 -0700 Received: from mycroft.greatcircle.com(198.102.244.35) by miles via smap (V1.3) id sma001296; Mon Oct 23 09:21:33 1995 Received: by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.10/SMI-4.1/Brent-950602) id JAA06821; Mon, 23 Oct 1995 09:11:47 -0700 Received: from swcp.com(198.59.115.2) by mycroft via smap (V1.3mjr) id sma006815; Mon Oct 23 09:11:35 1995 Received: (from lazlo@localhost) by kitsune.swcp.com (8.6.9/8.6.9) id KAA07891 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Mon, 23 Oct 1995 10:15:10 -0600 From: Lazlo Nibble Message-Id: <199510231615.KAA07891@kitsune.swcp.com> Subject: Spam from Johnson-Grace Co.? To: list-managers@greatcircle.com (lm) Date: Mon, 23 Oct 1995 10:15:10 -0600 (MDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 719 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > Now, leaving aside the fact that "sending our letter to Web > Publishers" sounds like spam to me, I want to see if they're telling > the truth, i.e., did anyone else get this on their list? I didn't, but I *did* get another round of the magazine-subscription spam this weekend. Majordomo bounced it because one of the header lines was too long, and would have bounced it as a nonsubscriber otherwise, so no real harm done, but I notice that they've armored their response-reciept system: the message claims that all fax responses are going to a computer with a fax/modem (not a paper fax machine) and that it's set up only to accept single-page replies... -- ::: Lazlo (lazlo@swcp.com; http://www.swcp.com/lazlo) From list-managers-owner Mon Oct 23 13:36:25 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) id NAA15802 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 23 Oct 1995 13:24:25 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: miles.greatcircle.com: majordom set sender to list-managers-owner using -f Received: (smap@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) id NAA15786 for ; Mon, 23 Oct 1995 13:24:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from othello.admin.kth.se(130.237.32.10) by miles via smap (V1.3) id sma015782; Mon Oct 23 13:23:47 1995 Received: from mercutio.admin.kth.se by othello.admin.kth.se (5.65+bind 1.8+ida 1.4.2/4.0b) id AA11845; Mon, 23 Oct 95 21:21:37 +0100 Received: by mercutio.admin.kth.se (5.65+bind 1.8+ida 1.4.2/4.0) id AA17785; Mon, 23 Oct 95 21:21:22 +0100 Date: Mon, 23 Oct 95 21:21:22 +0100 Message-Id: <9510232021.AA17785@mercutio.admin.kth.se> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Olle Jarnefors To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Cc: Olle Jarnefors Subject: Mailinglist spamming countermeasures Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Mailinglist spamming is less frequent than newsgroup spamming but also more difficult to counteract. After being hit by several spammers this summer the ISO10646 list in September was changed to only accept contributions from subscribers. This seems to have been an effective measure. I'm afraid that this will not be enough, though, when spammers get more sophisticated. I have sent the following message to the owner of the ISO10646 list. Do you agree with my analysis or have I overlooked something? Would my "solution 2" be the end of mailinglist spamming, if widely implemented for open mailing-lists? /Olle -- Olle Jarnefors, Royal Institute of Technology, Stockholm (I'm not myself a list manager, only a concerned mailing list user.) --- Start of included message Date: Fri, 8 Sep 95 16:25:16 +0200 Message-Id: <9509081425.AA13264@mercutio.admin.kth.se> From: Olle Jarnefors To: "Hart, Edwin F." Subject: Re: change in ISO10646 LISTPROC options Hello Ed, You wrote: > To avoid a few of the SPAM messages, I am changing the listproc options for > ISO10646 to require that a person subscribe to the list before the ISO10646 > listproc will accept any messages from the person. I hope that this is > enough to stop some of these people, but it may not be. I'm afraid that the cleverer spammers quickly will learn how to subscribe to the list, _before_ trying to send their garbage to it. And all the malicious activity is automated. The new solution will soon be sold to naive marketing people by some of the Internet saboteurs. Once they have come across the address of a mailing list, which is now the case with ISO10646, the rate of spamming attempts will probably only increase. Also addresses are sold to people who want to "exploit this exciting new advertising medium". I can see two different solutions of this problem, both requiring support by the mailing list management program. I don't know if listproc has such funtionality. If not, the author of listproc perhaps would be interested in adding it. Feel free to forward my ideas to anyone who is on the right side in the struggle against spammers. SOLUTION 1: New subscribers will not get any messages they send to the list distributed, unless they have been subscribed for 30 days or so. After this period probably all new subscribers that are spammers will have lost the account they subscribed from, because of complaints to their service provider from other mailing list or Usenet administrators who have been hit by their spamming. Unfortunately this solution will become less efficient the more mailing list administrators that apply it. When all lists has a 30 day "maturity period", the spammers will subscribe to thousands of mailing lists, sit and wait for a month and then start their dirty activity. To overcome this probable future consequence, manual inspection of messages before they are distributed to the list subscribers can't be avoided, I'm afraid. SOLUTION 2: The first several messages that a new subscriber sends to the list are looked at by the list administrator or another person he/she has chosen. A spam message is very easy to detect, and that subscriber can immediately be removed from the subscribers. Some spammers might try to counteract this by first sending a couple of short innocent-looking messages before they start the real spamming. For a person with at least some knowledge about the subject of the mailing list, even these messages will be easy to spot, because of their lack of subject relevance. Such a message may of course come from an innocent newbee, not a malignant spammer. Therefore, it should only lead to the subscriber getting a "read-only" status for 30 days, not being removed from the list. I don't think this solution will become too burdensome: 1) Most messages to most lists are sent by old subscribers. The list management program will take care of them automatically, like today. 2) The scanning of messages from new subscribers doesn't have to be performed by the list owner or list administrator but can be delegated to other persons. 3) It's acceptable with some delay before a message from a new subscriber is processed. I haven't yet been able to come up with a method for spammers to defeat this second solution, so I hope it's watertight. --- End of included message From list-managers-owner Mon Oct 23 18:02:27 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) id RAA23110 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 23 Oct 1995 17:55:13 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: miles.greatcircle.com: majordom set sender to list-managers-owner using -f Received: (smap@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) id QAA20752 for ; Mon, 23 Oct 1995 16:29:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from uucp-gw.cc.uh.edu(129.7.1.11) by miles via smap (V1.3) id sma020747; Mon Oct 23 16:28:37 1995 Received: from Taronga.COM by UUCP-GW.CC.UH.EDU with UUCP id AA15664 (5.67a/IDA-1.5 for list-managers@greatcircle.com); Mon, 23 Oct 1995 18:04:21 -0500 Received: (from arielle@localhost) by bonkers.taronga.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id RAA03319 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Mon, 23 Oct 1995 17:48:51 -0500 From: arielle@taronga.com (Stephanie da Silva) Message-Id: <199510232248.RAA03319@bonkers.taronga.com> Subject: Mailinglist spamming countermeasures To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Date: Mon, 23 Oct 1995 17:48:50 -0500 (CDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > I'm afraid that the cleverer spammers quickly will learn how to > subscribe to the list, _before_ trying to send their garbage to it. I do believe you're giving the spammers too much credit here. Subscribing to thousands of mailing lists is probably more trouble than they want to go into. From list-managers-owner Mon Oct 23 19:31:53 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) id TAA26119 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 23 Oct 1995 19:07:45 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: miles.greatcircle.com: majordom set sender to list-managers-owner using -f Received: (smap@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) id TAA26079 for ; Mon, 23 Oct 1995 19:07:38 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199510240207.TAA26079@miles.greatcircle.com> Received: from searn.sunet.se(192.36.125.4) by miles via smap (V1.3) id sma026060; Mon Oct 23 19:06:45 1995 Received: from SEARN.SUNET.SE by SEARN.SUNET.SE (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 2083; Tue, 24 Oct 95 03:04:31 +0100 Received: from SEARN.SUNET.SE (NJE origin ERIC@SEARN) by SEARN.SUNET.SE (LMail V1.2b/1.8b) with RFC822 id 0585; Tue, 24 Oct 1995 03:04:32 +0100 Date: Tue, 24 Oct 1995 03:02:22 +0100 From: Eric Thomas Subject: Re: Mailinglist spamming countermeasures To: list-managers@greatcircle.com, Olle Jarnefors In-Reply-To: Message of Mon, 23 Oct 95 21:21:22 +0100 from list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Mon, 23 Oct 95 21:21:22 +0100 Olle Jarnefors said: >I haven't yet been able to come up with a method for spammers to defeat >this second solution, so I hope it's watertight. All the spammer would have to do is post to ISO10646 from ojarnef@admin.kth.se ;-) Eric From list-managers-owner Mon Oct 23 20:12:12 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) id TAA27837 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 23 Oct 1995 19:38:27 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: miles.greatcircle.com: majordom set sender to list-managers-owner using -f Received: (smap@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) id TAA27781 for ; Mon, 23 Oct 1995 19:38:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from jax.jaxnet.com(204.183.221.4) by miles via smap (V1.3) id sma027726; Mon Oct 23 19:38:05 1995 Received: from ts1-011.jaxnet.com (ts1-011.jaxnet.com [204.183.221.236]) by jax.jaxnet.com (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id WAA11283 for ; Mon, 23 Oct 1995 22:44:46 -0400 Message-Id: <199510240244.WAA11283@jax.jaxnet.com> X-Sender: bwern@jax.jaxnet.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.1.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 23 Oct 1995 22:37:41 -0400 To: list-managers@greatcircle.com From: Ben Wern Subject: Configuration Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Greetings. I still can't seem to get the hang of this. (A simple list, even!). Perhaps one of you with greater experience can help me out? The list is a basic test list, which will contain about 10-15 people. Once I get this done, I hope to move on to bigger and better things, like several hundred people. :) The aliases file entries: # Bwern test list test:"|/home/majordom/resend -l test -h jaxnet.com test" #test: :include:/home/majordom/lists/test owner-test: bwern test-request: "|/home/majordomo/wrapper request-answer test" test-approval: bwern And a sample failed message: ----- The following addresses had delivery problems ----- "|/home/majordom/resend -l test -h jaxnet.com test" (unrecoverable error) (expanded from: ) ----- Transcript of session follows ----- Message delivered to mailing list /etc/majordomo.cf not readable; stopped at /home/majordom/resend line 55. 554 "|/home/majordom/resend -l test -h jaxnet.com test" ... unknown mailer error 2 If anyone has any pointers to good, basic idiot type instructions, PLEASE point me in that direction. Thanks to all, Ben Wern bwern@jaxnet.com | bwern@pathtech.com | bwern@unf.edu SAY NO TO TALKING COWS! -------------------------------------------------------- "We are more than the sum of our knowledge, we are the products of our imagination." From list-managers-owner Tue Oct 24 08:02:41 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) id HAA02863 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 24 Oct 1995 07:59:48 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: miles.greatcircle.com: majordom set sender to list-managers-owner using -f Received: (smap@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) id HAA02852 for ; Tue, 24 Oct 1995 07:59:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from leibniz.math.psu.edu(146.186.130.2) by miles via smap (V1.3) id sma002846; Tue Oct 24 07:58:52 1995 Received: from augusta.math.psu.edu (barr@augusta.math.psu.edu [146.186.132.2]) by leibniz.math.psu.edu (8.6.12/8.6.9) with ESMTP id KAA21228; Tue, 24 Oct 1995 10:56:49 -0400 Received: from localhost (barr@localhost) by augusta.math.psu.edu (8.6.12/8.6.9) with ESMTP id KAA07619; Tue, 24 Oct 1995 10:56:48 -0400 Message-Id: <199510241456.KAA07619@augusta.math.psu.edu> X-Mailer: exmh version 1.6.4 10/10/95 To: Ben Wern cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Configuration In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 23 Oct 1995 22:37:41 EDT." <199510240244.WAA11283@jax.jaxnet.com> References: <199510240244.WAA11283@jax.jaxnet.com> X-Face: $+9-wYg.[->94HJ{go[7Q]E!K&hUg7ZhLyCMyq_FU*ca0GazE>^/2BKLcK0bP-'%;Nn?M+am,jlSP>1K$iz@ %'v'FEW{@](U&Ed/}>ju3Ctlr!XwJ27Q)7h2a%"`sz;j:/3EC[mXi@*X@HE1]'ddq$ZX"ePsMyTkeg >zdML.SVvX1W`adGIUD Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Tue, 24 Oct 1995 10:56:48 -0400 From: Dave Barr Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk In message <199510240244.WAA11283@jax.jaxnet.com>, Ben Wern writes: >Greetings. Please don't post majordomo questions to list-managers. --Dave From list-managers-owner Tue Oct 24 10:33:42 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) id KAA05558 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 24 Oct 1995 10:12:56 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: miles.greatcircle.com: majordom set sender to list-managers-owner using -f Received: (smap@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) id KAA05550 for ; Tue, 24 Oct 1995 10:12:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from swcp.com(198.59.115.2) by miles via smap (V1.3) id sma005546; Tue Oct 24 10:12:44 1995 Received: (from lazlo@localhost) by kitsune.swcp.com (8.6.9/8.6.9) id LAA16652 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Tue, 24 Oct 1995 11:10:35 -0600 From: Lazlo Nibble Message-Id: <199510241710.LAA16652@kitsune.swcp.com> Subject: Mailinglist spamming countermeasures To: list-managers@greatcircle.com (lm) Date: Tue, 24 Oct 1995 11:10:34 -0600 (MDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > I do believe you're giving the spammers too much credit here. Subscribing > to thousands of mailing lists is probably more trouble than they want to > go into. At the moment, probably -- but it's only one more message, after all, and it's easily automated. One other anti-spam approach to add to the pile would be: * When someone tries to subscribe to a list, the list sends them a "what this list is about" message with a unique key at the end, and the note, "if you still want to subscribe to the list, send a subscribe request with this key". With this, all posters have a known valid email address (something that's rapidly becoming unheard of for spammers). Problem: they can get on the list from a "safe" address and then forge spam to the list so it looks like it's coming from a known "good subscriber" address. Fortunately we won't be seeing this level of sophistication for at least six months... :-( -- ::: Lazlo (lazlo@swcp.com; http://www.swcp.com/lazlo) From list-managers-owner Tue Oct 24 11:02:31 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) id KAA06424 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 24 Oct 1995 10:50:04 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: miles.greatcircle.com: majordom set sender to list-managers-owner using -f Received: (smap@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) id KAA06416 for ; Tue, 24 Oct 1995 10:50:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fsm-1.pica.army.mil(129.139.164.101) by miles via smap (V1.3) id sma006409; Tue Oct 24 10:49:19 1995 Date: Tue, 24 Oct 95 13:48:48 EDT From: Info-LabVIEW List Maintainer To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Date problems Organization: Electronics Br, PMMDD, US Army ARDEC, Picatinny Arsenal, NJ Message-ID: <9510241348.aa17377@fsm-1.pica.army.mil> Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk A recurring problem I've had on my list is really getting to be a pain. There are a number of mailers out there, seemingly all in Europe, for what that's worth (probably not a whole lot) which will bounce mail which comes without a Date: field in the header. I've poked thru RFC's at some length, and haven't actually found a hard requirement that one be included, so I'm a bit at a loss as to who to flame, er chastise. I know that the Mac version of Eudora can (or used to) spit out mail without Date, and I'm sure there is other software out there which does the same thing. My question: how to deal with this? I've sent msgs to my lists asking folks to make sure their mailers are properly configured. The lists are technical in nature, but that doesn't mean that these tech folks are internet or email gurus. Are these sites improperly refusing mail? I know I can write a couple lines in my .maildelivery (we use mmdf here) and trash the blasted things, but I'm a bit leery of doing so for fear I'll bounce a msg I should read. Your thoughts? Tom Coradeschi, Info-LabVIEW List Maintainer http://k-whiner.pica.army.mil/info-labview/info-labview.html From list-managers-owner Tue Oct 24 12:46:28 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) id MAA09244 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 24 Oct 1995 12:26:36 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: miles.greatcircle.com: majordom set sender to list-managers-owner using -f Received: (smap@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) id MAA09229 for ; Tue, 24 Oct 1995 12:26:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from aspensys.aspensys.com(198.77.70.104) by miles via smap (V1.3) id sma009224; Tue Oct 24 12:26:24 1995 Received: from smtpinet.aspensys.com (smtpgate.aspensys.com) by aspensys (5.0/SMI-SVR4) id AA22790; Tue, 24 Oct 1995 15:19:54 +0500 Received: from ccMail by smtpinet.aspensys.com (SMTPLINK V2.10.08) id AA814573700; Tue, 24 Oct 95 15:27:44 EST Date: Tue, 24 Oct 95 15:27:44 EST From: "Jim Meritt" Message-Id: <9509248145.AA814573700@smtpinet.aspensys.com> To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: As a first-order guesstimate Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Is it reasonable to assume that if a process server owned by listmgr is running, that the listproc (v6.oc) is operating? Maybe not right, but up? Is this what start checks for when the listproc is started and it gripes about others running after executing a ps? Jim From list-managers-owner Tue Oct 24 13:03:18 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) id MAA09466 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 24 Oct 1995 12:40:36 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: miles.greatcircle.com: majordom set sender to list-managers-owner using -f Received: (smap@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) id MAA09449 for ; Tue, 24 Oct 1995 12:40:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from surf.sccoe.santacruz.k12.ca.us(205.155.8.2) by miles via smap (V1.3) id sma009444; Tue Oct 24 12:39:56 1995 Received: by santacruz.k12.ca.us (Smail3.1.29.1 #1) id m0t7p8r-003ajNC; Tue, 24 Oct 95 12:36 PDT Message-Id: Date: Tue, 24 Oct 95 12:36 PDT From: mcrae@santacruz.k12.ca.us (Christopher McRae) To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Majordomo 1.93 advertise bug on Solaris 2.4/Perl 5.0 Cc: mcrae@santacruz.k12.ca.us Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Just figured out that the problems I was having with the 'advertise' config option was apparently (?) due to quirks in perl 5.0's regular expression matching. We're running Majordomo 1.93 on Solaris 2.4 with Perl 5.0. I made the following changes to get things to work: # diff majordomo ~/src/majordomo/majordomo-1.93/majordomo 884,885c884,885 < $result = 1; < last if ($reply_addr =~ $i); --- > $command = "(qq~$reply_addr~ =~ $i)"; > $result = 1, last if (eval $command); Note that I'm not on the list, in case you have any questions... chris -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Christopher McRae mcrae@santacruz.k12.ca.us Network Administrator (408) 479-5312 Santa Cruz County Office of Education 809-H Bay Avenue, Capitola, California 95010 From list-managers-owner Tue Oct 24 13:45:21 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) id NAA10134 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 24 Oct 1995 13:04:46 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: miles.greatcircle.com: majordom set sender to list-managers-owner using -f Received: (smap@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) id NAA10100 for ; Tue, 24 Oct 1995 13:04:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from claven.ide.com(192.18.82.1) by miles via smap (V1.3) id sma010091; Tue Oct 24 13:03:50 1995 Received: from shadowfx (78mac7.IDE.COM) by ide.com (4.1/IDE-1.0) id AA12074; Tue, 24 Oct 95 13:01:02 PDT Received: by shadowfx (5.x/ide-1.0) id AA09470; Tue, 24 Oct 1995 13:00:55 -0700 Message-Id: <9510242000.AA09470@shadowfx> To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Mailinglist spamming countermeasures Date: Tue, 24 Oct 1995 13:00:54 -0700 From: Roy Rapoport Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On October 24, 1995, Lazlo Nibble said: >One other anti-spam approach to add to the pile would be: > > * When someone tries to subscribe to a list, the list sends them a "what > this list is about" message with a unique key at the end, and the note, > "if you still want to subscribe to the list, send a subscribe request > with this key". With this, all posters have a known valid email > address (something that's rapidly becoming unheard of for spammers). > >Problem: they can get on the list from a "safe" address and then forge spam >to the list so it looks like it's coming from a known "good subscriber" >address. Perhaps I'm missing something here, but it seems to me there's an equation we might be ignoring here. Take UNIX security, for example: You can make a site very very very very safe, and very very very very unusable. In the end, you have to choose some sort of balance between ease/openness of use and security. When it comes to security, my general concern would be to work on security to the point where my work on security takes less time/money than the likelihood of loss of data/productivity * cost of loss of data/productivity. In other words, it's something like Work I'm willing to do = chance of loss * magnitude of loss. Now, of course, what you want to do is minimize work :) but as long as it's at most equal, I seem to be ahead of the game; if I'm spending more work/effort/time/money than the chance of loss * magnitude of loss, then it seems like I could be spending my time better, no? So, if we look at spammers, is it possible that we might be discussing measures that in the end would be more hassle than the spammers themselves? How horrid is this problem anyway? I'm afraid I don't have a representative exposure to mailing lists -- I'm only on, say, 5-10 of them at any given time -- but personally, the two letters from Olga were far less annoying than the clueless newbies subscribing on mailing lists, and we're certainly not going to stop *them* with anti-spamming measures ... -roy --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Roy S. Rapoport UNIX/Mac System Administrator rsr@ide.com I do not, of course, speak for IDE Phone: 415-543-1314 ext. 280 Fax: 415-543-0145 From list-managers-owner Tue Oct 24 14:02:31 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) id OAA10975 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 24 Oct 1995 14:00:52 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: miles.greatcircle.com: majordom set sender to list-managers-owner using -f Received: (smap@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) id OAA10955 for ; Tue, 24 Oct 1995 14:00:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from access5.digex.net(205.197.245.196) by miles via smap (V1.3) id sma010949; Tue Oct 24 14:00:27 1995 Received: (from asgilman@localhost) by access5.digex.net (8.6.12/8.6.12) id QAA13901 ; for ; Tue, 24 Oct 1995 16:58:08 -0400 From: Al Gilman Message-Id: <199510242058.QAA13901@access5.digex.net> Subject: Re: Date problems To: info-labview-request@pica.army.mil (Info-LabVIEW List Maintainer) Date: Tue, 24 Oct 1995 16:58:08 -0400 (EDT) Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: <9510241348.aa17377@fsm-1.pica.army.mil> from "Info-LabVIEW List Maintainer" at Oct 24, 95 01:48:48 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24beta] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Tom, What would be the problem of sending received-undated messages forward with a date as of when you handled them. This is not the true date of origination, of course. You could even invent an X-date-repaired-at: header comparable to the "Damaged in transport" wrappers the snail mail postal service applies. Notification that you had to repair the post could go back to the originator, too. Plan B: If you are willing to handle these manually, you can kick undated messages into your "special handling" inbox from which you can send them on as dated material. The volume is probably low enough. Plan C: Tell the users who bounce undated items to subscribe to the digest. Keith, Has any thought been given to sending _forward_ repaired messages by the Notary working group? Al Gilman asgilman@access.digex.net http://access.digex.net/~asgilman From list-managers-owner Tue Oct 24 14:32:33 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) id NAA10907 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 24 Oct 1995 13:57:50 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: miles.greatcircle.com: majordom set sender to list-managers-owner using -f Received: (smap@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) id NAA10899 for ; Tue, 24 Oct 1995 13:57:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fender.pica.army.mil(129.139.68.140) by miles via smap (V1.3) id sma010897; Tue Oct 24 13:57:05 1995 Date: Tue, 24 Oct 95 16:56:34 EDT From: Info-LabVIEW List Maintainer To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: Date problems Organization: Electronics Br, PMMDD, US Army ARDEC, Picatinny Arsenal, NJ Message-ID: <9510241656.aa02621@fender.Pica.Army.Mil> Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Christopher Davis wrote: >ILM> == Info-LabVIEW List Maintainer > ILM> There are a number of mailers out there, seemingly all in Europe, > ILM> for what that's worth (probably not a whole lot) which will bounce > ILM> mail which comes without a Date: field in the header. I've poked > ILM> thru RFC's at some length, and haven't actually found a hard > ILM> requirement that one be included, so I'm a bit at a loss as to who > ILM> to flame, er chastise. > >RFC 822: > fields = dates ; Creation time, > source ; author id & one > 1*destination ; address required > *optional-field ; others optional > > dates = orig-date ; Original [...] >and > > A.3.1. Minimum required > > Date: 26 Aug 76 1429 EDT Date: 26 Aug 76 1429 EDT > From: Jones@Registry.Org or From: Jones@Registry.Org > Bcc: To: Smith@Registry.Org > >Date: is very clearly a required header. Thankyew thankyew thankyew. I pored thru that dratted thing and never saw what you pointed out so clearly. > ILM> My question: how to deal with this? > >Well, your sendmail should be making sure that there's a Date: header on >all the mail going out to the list. There's the rub. We don't use sendmail. We use MMDF, which does not munge headers (much). >probably a Really Good Idea. (This is also why older versions of Eudora >didn't bother putting Date: headers on mail; they let sendmail do it for >them, since they were really only using SMTP as a MUA-MTA submission >protocol.) Assuming that they were connecting to a host running sendmail, that would work fine. Of course... Thanks for your help! (now, I got this majordomo problems and... :-}) Tom Coradeschi, Info-LabVIEW List Maintainer http://k-whiner.pica.army.mil/info-labview/info-labview.html From list-managers-owner Tue Oct 24 14:33:00 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) id NAA10692 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 24 Oct 1995 13:40:51 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: miles.greatcircle.com: majordom set sender to list-managers-owner using -f Received: (smap@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) id NAA10676 for ; Tue, 24 Oct 1995 13:40:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from loiosh.kei.com(192.88.144.32) by miles via smap (V1.3) id sma010672; Tue Oct 24 13:39:59 1995 Received: (from ckd@localhost) by loiosh.kei.com (8.7.1/8.7.1) id QAA02367; Tue, 24 Oct 1995 16:37:53 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 24 Oct 1995 16:37:53 -0400 (EDT) From: Christopher Davis Message-Id: <199510242037.QAA02367@loiosh.kei.com> To: Info-LabVIEW List Maintainer Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Date problems In-Reply-To: <9510241348.aa17377@fsm-1.pica.army.mil> References: <9510241348.aa17377@fsm-1.pica.army.mil> X-Attribution: ckd Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- ILM> == Info-LabVIEW List Maintainer ILM> There are a number of mailers out there, seemingly all in Europe, ILM> for what that's worth (probably not a whole lot) which will bounce ILM> mail which comes without a Date: field in the header. I've poked ILM> thru RFC's at some length, and haven't actually found a hard ILM> requirement that one be included, so I'm a bit at a loss as to who ILM> to flame, er chastise. RFC 822: fields = dates ; Creation time, source ; author id & one 1*destination ; address required *optional-field ; others optional dates = orig-date ; Original [ resent-date ] ; Forwarded orig-date = "Date" ":" date-time and A.3.1. Minimum required Date: 26 Aug 76 1429 EDT Date: 26 Aug 76 1429 EDT From: Jones@Registry.Org or From: Jones@Registry.Org Bcc: To: Smith@Registry.Org Date: is very clearly a required header. ILM> My question: how to deal with this? I've sent msgs to my lists ILM> asking folks to make sure their mailers are properly configured. Well, your sendmail should be making sure that there's a Date: header on all the mail going out to the list. While many people have bemoaned sendmail's tendency to "fix up" broken messages, in this case it's probably a Really Good Idea. (This is also why older versions of Eudora didn't bother putting Date: headers on mail; they let sendmail do it for them, since they were really only using SMTP as a MUA-MTA submission protocol.) At least in the default configuration for 8.7.1, all the mailers have the D flag, which implies that they require a Date: header. (I'm pretty sure 8.6.12 is the same way.) - -- Christopher Davis [CKD1] ``The game does not build character. It reveals it.'' Congratulations to the 1996 AL West champion Seattle Mariners and the 1996 AL champion Cleveland Indians. GO TRIBE; REFUSE TO LOSE for Olin & Crews. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 Comment: Processed by Mailcrypt 3.3, an Emacs/PGP interface iQBVAwUBMI1Om3c8OGsDgp+JAQGQagH/ZuRzZK7mX69eGHc9DlfzgPVgd2CjoPg2 SU30jmuTOSlJ31Oi2MMKYY4O2Mqsa02/HUOlJSKfNqhzthfL9A6P7Q== =JdwB -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From list-managers-owner Tue Oct 24 16:32:31 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) id QAA14208 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 24 Oct 1995 16:20:05 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: miles.greatcircle.com: majordom set sender to list-managers-owner using -f Received: (smap@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) id QAA14192 for ; Tue, 24 Oct 1995 16:20:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from clsn1102.noble.mass.edu(134.241.60.1) by miles via smap (V1.3) id sma014089; Tue Oct 24 16:18:59 1995 Received: (from et@localhost) by clsn1102.noble.mass.edu (8.6.12/8.6.12) id TAA13631; Tue, 24 Oct 1995 19:11:59 -0400 Date: Tue, 24 Oct 1995 19:11:55 -0400 (EDT) From: Elizabeth Thomsen To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: Mailinglist spamming countermeasures In-Reply-To: <9510242000.AA09470@shadowfx> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I agree that we need to balance convenience against security, but I know that my list members *really* hate the spamming, and often lack the experience to understand what's happening. When the first magazine subscription one hit recently, there was the spam itself, followed by several messages to the group from members raging against the off-topic message (thinking, I presume, that it had been sent by someone on the list) plus a few messages misaddressed to the list that were apparently meant just for the sender, plus a few messages from more experienced listies, explaining spam and suggesting various actions (writing to postmaster, etc.) plus messages from me explaining spam...all in all, a major disruption to the discussion. I also got a number of messages sent to me personally, demanding that I take action, etc. The Olga message was even worse-- on my Bronte group, someone sent an angry tirade to the list saying that advertising mail order Russian brides was contrary to everything the Brontes believed, etc. I have taken a few steps, such as adding a section on spamming to the Welcome/Info file for my groups, and will probably soon make the lists private, since there are few circumstances in which there is a benefit to having nonmembers post to the group. I realize this will increase my list maintenance with people whose form of e-mail address changes. I know I get a lot of bounced unsubscribe messages that are user@thismachine.foobar.edu vs. user@foobar.edu. But I think it may be worth it if this continues. I have also made the who command private, since I worry about someone getting the list to send spammish messages that look like they were sent to individuals rather than coming from the group. What a pain these people are! Elizabeth Thomsen On Tue, 24 Oct 1995, Roy Rapoport wrote: [lines deleted] > > So, if we look at spammers, is it possible that we might be discussing > measures that in the end would be more hassle than the spammers themselves? > How horrid is this problem anyway? I'm afraid I don't have a representative > exposure to mailing lists -- I'm only on, say, 5-10 of them at any given > time -- but personally, the two letters from Olga were far less annoying > than the clueless newbies subscribing on mailing lists, and we're > certainly not going to stop *them* with anti-spamming measures ... > > -roy > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Roy S. Rapoport UNIX/Mac System Administrator > rsr@ide.com I do not, of course, speak for IDE > Phone: 415-543-1314 ext. 280 Fax: 415-543-0145 > From list-managers-owner Tue Oct 24 17:04:10 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) id QAA14610 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 24 Oct 1995 16:53:04 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: miles.greatcircle.com: majordom set sender to list-managers-owner using -f Received: (smap@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) id QAA14602 for ; Tue, 24 Oct 1995 16:53:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relay5.uu.net(192.48.96.15) by miles via smap (V1.3) id sma014600; Tue Oct 24 16:52:44 1995 Received: from rabbit.wmin.ac.uk by relay5.UU.NET with ESMTP id QQzmxb15176; Tue, 24 Oct 1995 19:49:55 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: Received: from westminster.ac.uk by rabbit.wmin.ac.uk id <16035-0@rabbit.wmin.ac.uk>; Tue, 24 Oct 1995 19:54:31 +0000 Subject: Re: Date problems To: info-labview-request@pica.army.mil (Info-LabVIEW List Maintainer) Date: Tue, 24 Oct 1995 19:54:28 +0000 (GMT) Cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com In-Reply-To: <9510241348.aa17377@fsm-1.pica.army.mil> from "Info-LabVIEW List Maintainer" at Oct 24, 95 01:48:48 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Malcolm Ray Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > > A recurring problem I've had on my list is really getting to be a pain. > > There are a number of mailers out there, seemingly all in Europe, for what > that's worth (probably not a whole lot) which will bounce mail which comes > without a Date: field in the header. I've poked thru RFC's at some length, > and haven't actually found a hard requirement that one be included, so I'm a > bit at a loss as to who to flame, er chastise. >From RFC 822: A.3. COMPLETE HEADERS A.3.1. Minimum required Date: 26 Aug 76 1429 EDT Date: 26 Aug 76 1429 EDT From: Jones@Registry.Org or From: Jones@Registry.Org Bcc: To: Smith@Registry.Org Note that the "Bcc" field may be empty, while the "To" field is required to have at least one address. -- University of Mostly Westminster malcolmr@westminster.ac.uk Information Resource Services +44-171-911-5000 "We've come a long way from where we are now" From list-managers-owner Tue Oct 24 19:01:56 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) id TAA16576 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 24 Oct 1995 19:01:30 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: miles.greatcircle.com: majordom set sender to list-managers-owner using -f Received: (smap@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) id TAA16531 for ; Tue, 24 Oct 1995 19:01:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dexter-gw.dexter.msen.com(148.59.2.1) by miles via smap (V1.3) id sma016484; Tue Oct 24 19:01:04 1995 Received: (scs@localhost) by lokkur.dexter.mi.us (8.6.12/8.6.5) id VAA13750 for list-managers@GreatCircle.COM; Tue, 24 Oct 1995 21:56:57 -0400 Newsgroups: local.list-managers Path: scs From: scs@lokkur.dexter.mi.us (Steve Simmons) Subject: Re: Mailinglist spamming countermeasures Message-ID: <1995Oct25.015655.13709@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> Organization: Inland Sea References: <199510241710.LAA16652@kitsune.swcp.com> Distribution: local Date: Wed, 25 Oct 95 01:56:55 GMT Lines: 40 Apparently-To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Paul Vixie, keeper of the bind list and others, took an interesting approach to spamming. He notified the list members of his actions with the following note: -------------------------------------------------------------------- Re: >*** ===>> World's *Cheapest* Way to get USA Magazine Subscription In case anyone wonders, my reply was as follows: |[gw.home:i386] sendfax -d 'Spam King@+1.718.967.1550' -D -R |Mass marketing on Internet bears a heavy cost. You are evidently unaware |that my mailing list has a fixed charge of US$1,000.00 per unsolicited |off-topic posting. You may indicate your willingness to pay that rate by |sending another unsolicited off-topic posting to any of the mailing lists I |run from my host. | |Paul Vixie |FAX +1 415 747 0106 |request id is 89 (group id 170) for host gw (1 file) I want my internet back. Paul ("Trapped In A World He Never Made") Vixie -- Paul Vixie La Honda, CA "Illegitimibus non carborundum." pacbell!vixie!paul -------------------------------------------------------------------- I strongly approve, and am adopting this policy for my own lists. Steve -- ` . . . I'm a sysadmin, with an admitted preference for things I can reboot over things I have to negotiate with . . . ' Mike Shaver (shaver@neon.ingenia.com) From list-managers-owner Wed Oct 25 16:33:09 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) id QAA06930 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 25 Oct 1995 16:27:56 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: miles.greatcircle.com: majordom set sender to list-managers-owner using -f Received: (smap@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) id PAA05257 for ; Wed, 25 Oct 1995 15:28:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hustle.rahul.net(192.160.13.2) by miles via smap (V1.3) id sma005252; Wed Oct 25 15:28:43 1995 Received: from LunaCity.UUCP by hustle.rahul.net with UUCP id AA05658 (5.67b8/IDA-1.5 for list-managers@greatCircle.com); Wed, 25 Oct 1995 15:26:42 -0700 Received: by LunaCity.com (1.65/waf) via UUCP; Wed, 25 Oct 95 15:02:26 PST for list-managers@greatCircle.com To: list-managers@greatCircle.com Cc: ala@hustle.rahul.net Subject: Re: Mailinglist spamming countermeasures From: ala@LunaCity.com (alyson l abramowitz) Message-Id: Date: Wed, 25 Oct 95 15:01:48 PDT Organization: Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk One thing that I'd like considered in the solutions to Spam'ers are valid users of lists. There are times I subscribe to a list because I have a valid work reason to do so. Waiting a month to be able to send out a message just won't do. I have a valid, list related, problem that I need to get solved now. While I also subscribe to fun lists, on work-related ones it's important to be able to contribute fairly quickly. I'm concerned that some of the solutions proposed on this list prevent this, valid, usage of lists. BTW, I am concerned with the idea of teachers telling someone to subscribe to a list as a teaching assignment. This seems like a waste of administrator's times and an abuse of lists. I suspect that if we put together a simple explainatory note for teachers which could be sent to those teachers abusing the system and, perhaps, another, which might be directed at Deans/Dept Heads this problem might go away. I suspect its' one of ignorance rather than the spammer's malice. Best, Alyson From list-managers-owner Wed Oct 25 21:35:14 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) id VAA16188 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 25 Oct 1995 21:06:43 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: miles.greatcircle.com: majordom set sender to list-managers-owner using -f Received: (smap@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) id VAA16127 for ; Wed, 25 Oct 1995 21:06:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from eis.wfunet.wfu.edu(152.17.1.32) by miles via smap (V1.3) id sma016113; Wed Oct 25 21:05:55 1995 Received: from skywalker.phy.wfu.edu (skywalker.phy.wfu.edu [152.17.30.103]) by eis.wfunet.wfu.edu (8.6.10/8.6.10) with SMTP id AAA21449; Thu, 26 Oct 1995 00:01:43 -0400 Received: from bh.mindspring.com by skywalker.phy.wfu.edu; (5.65/1.1.8.2/26Jan95-1239PM) id AA08973; Thu, 26 Oct 1995 00:01:09 -0400 Received: (from bh@localhost) by hq.stargame.org (8.6.12/8.6.9) id XAA04708; Tue, 24 Oct 1995 23:09:07 -0400 Date: Tue, 24 Oct 1995 23:09:06 -0400 (EDT) From: Brian Hartsfield To: alyson l abramowitz Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM, ala@hustle.rahul.net Subject: Re: Mailinglist spamming countermeasures In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Wed, 25 Oct 1995, alyson l abramowitz wrote: > BTW, I am concerned with the idea of teachers telling someone to > subscribe to a list as a teaching assignment. This seems like > a waste of administrator's times and an abuse of lists. I suspect > that if we put together a simple explainatory note for teachers > which could be sent to those teachers abusing the system and, perhaps, > another, which might be directed at Deans/Dept Heads this problem > might go away. I suspect its' one of ignorance rather than the > spammer's malice. If teachers are going to have somebody subscribe to a list, they should not say 'subscribe to list X'. Instead they should tell them to find a list they are interested in a subscribe to it. If somebody subscribes to a list about something that interests them because of an assignment, they may stay on afterwards. If they join list X that they don't care about because that list was specified, then they will definitely leave. Brian From list-managers-owner Thu Oct 26 03:02:23 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) id CAA02869 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 26 Oct 1995 02:40:42 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: miles.greatcircle.com: majordom set sender to list-managers-owner using -f Received: (smap@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) id CAA02817 for ; Thu, 26 Oct 1995 02:40:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from chinacat.unicom.com(192.108.105.34) by miles via smap (V1.3) id sma002792; Thu Oct 26 02:39:36 1995 Received: (from chip@localhost) by chinacat.unicom.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id EAA12575 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Thu, 26 Oct 1995 04:37:28 -0500 (CDT) From: Chip Rosenthal Message-Id: <199510260937.EAA12575@chinacat.unicom.com> Subject: braindead transport sanity test To: list-managers@greatcircle.com (The List-Managers Mailing List) Date: Thu, 26 Oct 1995 04:37:27 -0500 (CDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL0a8] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk With all these incredibly brain dead transports and toy email system gateways out there, list regurgitation is growing to be a major problem. I just thought of something ... and I'm curious if anybody has ever attempted it: before authorizing a new list subscription, send a message to a *bogus* email address on the host/domain, and watch how it bounces. If it bounces to the envelope sender then sign the guy (or gal) up. If the bounce goes to a header address (in particular, From: or Reply-To: addresses), then ignore it. It seems to me that a tool such as this might prevent some really annoying meltdowns. -- Chip Rosenthal I won't represent the US in the Summer Olympics. Unicom Systems Development - http://www.unicom.com/john-hiatt/ PGP key: http://www.unicom.com/personal/chip.html From list-managers-owner Thu Oct 26 09:42:20 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) id IAA14462 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 26 Oct 1995 08:46:18 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: miles.greatcircle.com: majordom set sender to list-managers-owner using -f Received: (smap@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) id IAA14454 for ; Thu, 26 Oct 1995 08:46:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wilma.cs.utk.edu(128.169.94.141) by miles via smap (V1.3) id sma014450; Thu Oct 26 08:46:01 1995 Received: from LOCALHOST by wilma.cs.utk.edu with SMTP (cf v2.11c-UTK) id LAA21278; Thu, 26 Oct 1995 11:43:32 -0400 Message-Id: <199510261543.LAA21278@wilma.cs.utk.edu> X-URI: http://www.cs.utk.edu/~moore/ From: Keith Moore To: Chip Rosenthal cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com (The List-Managers Mailing List), moore@cs.utk.edu Subject: Re: braindead transport sanity test In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 26 Oct 1995 04:37:27 CDT." <199510260937.EAA12575@chinacat.unicom.com> Date: Thu, 26 Oct 1995 11:43:25 -0400 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > I just thought of something ... and I'm curious if anybody has ever > attempted it: before authorizing a new list subscription, send a > message to a *bogus* email address on the host/domain, and watch how > it bounces. If it bounces to the envelope sender then sign the guy > (or gal) up. If the bounce goes to a header address (in particular, > From: or Reply-To: addresses), then ignore it. I've certainly done this by hand for any subscriber that appears to be using one of certain LAN mail systems. It seems like a reasonable thing to try on an experimental basis. On the other hand, I'd hate to see a list manager that adapted the kinds of messages it generated to suit the brain damage of that recipient's mailer... Keith From list-managers-owner Thu Oct 26 10:47:21 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) id JAA15600 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 26 Oct 1995 09:42:19 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: miles.greatcircle.com: majordom set sender to list-managers-owner using -f Received: (smap@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) id JAA15587 for ; Thu, 26 Oct 1995 09:42:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ornette.uchicago.edu(128.135.99.101) by miles via smap (V1.3) id sma015583; Thu Oct 26 09:42:12 1995 Received: from localhost (localhost.uchicago.edu [127.0.0.1]) by ornette.uchicago.edu (8.6.10/8.6.11) with ESMTP id LAA09419 for ; Thu, 26 Oct 1995 11:39:30 -0500 Message-Id: <199510261639.LAA09419@ornette.uchicago.edu> X-Mailer: exmh version 1.6.4 10/10/95 Reply-To: ckk@uchicago.edu From: ckk@uchicago.edu To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: an interesting "prank"... Date: Thu, 26 Oct 1995 11:39:29 -0500 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Got this interesting message the other day: >From: Liam Fernandez >To: majordomo-owner@[host.uchicago.edu] > >hi an enemy on irc subscribed me to a bunch of lists on your server, can >u please tell me how to get my name off of all of them at once? From list-managers-owner Thu Oct 26 11:07:05 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) id KAA16182 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 26 Oct 1995 10:02:29 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: miles.greatcircle.com: majordom set sender to list-managers-owner using -f Received: (smap@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) id KAA16139 for ; Thu, 26 Oct 1995 10:02:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from othello.admin.kth.se(130.237.32.10) by miles via smap (V1.3) id sma016124; Thu Oct 26 10:01:28 1995 Received: from mercutio.admin.kth.se by othello.admin.kth.se (5.65+bind 1.8+ida 1.4.2/4.0b) id AA29358; Thu, 26 Oct 95 17:59:21 +0100 Received: by mercutio.admin.kth.se (5.65+bind 1.8+ida 1.4.2/4.0) id AA02310; Thu, 26 Oct 95 17:59:15 +0100 Date: Thu, 26 Oct 95 17:59:15 +0100 Message-Id: <9510261659.AA02310@mercutio.admin.kth.se> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Olle Jarnefors To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Cc: Olle Jarnefors In-Reply-To: (Wed, 25 Oct 95 15:01:48 PDT; From: ala@LunaCity.com (alyson l abramowitz)) Subject: Re: Mailinglist spamming countermeasures Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Alyson L Abramowitz writes in message : > One thing that I'd like considered in the solutions to Spam'ers are > valid users of lists. > > There are times I subscribe to a list because I have a valid work > reason to do so. Waiting a month to be able to send out a message > just won't do. I have a valid, list related, problem that I > need to get solved now. Yes, this is a valid criticism of my "solution 1" [1], which, on the other hand, has the advantage of requiring no extra manual work at all by the list administrator. In my "solution 2" the administrator (or some other trusted person) scans all first-time-messages, looking for spams, before they are distributed to the list subscribers. In that case, new subscribers shouldn't have to experience more than a couple of day's delay, which should be acceptable. (Advanced list-managing software could automatically respond to sender of first-time messages, explaining why there will be an extra delay.) This solution has the further advantage over solution 1 of being more difficult to break for automatic spamming programs. [1] Subject: Mailinglist spamming countermeasures From: Olle Jarnefors Date: Mon, 23 Oct 95 21:21:22 +0100 Message-Id: <9510232021.AA17785@mercutio.admin.kth.se> To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM /Olle -- Olle Jarnefors, Royal Institute of Technology, Stockholm From list-managers-owner Thu Oct 26 12:46:39 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) id LAA18626 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 26 Oct 1995 11:33:24 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: miles.greatcircle.com: majordom set sender to list-managers-owner using -f Received: (smap@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) id LAA18601 for ; Thu, 26 Oct 1995 11:33:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from claven.ide.com(192.18.82.1) by miles via smap (V1.3) id sma018596; Thu Oct 26 11:33:03 1995 Received: from shadowfx (78mac7.IDE.COM) by ide.com (4.1/IDE-1.0) id AA27779; Thu, 26 Oct 95 11:30:11 PDT Received: by shadowfx (5.x/ide-1.0) id AA01253; Thu, 26 Oct 1995 11:30:04 -0700 Message-Id: <9510261830.AA01253@shadowfx> To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: an interesting "prank"... Date: Thu, 26 Oct 1995 11:30:03 -0700 From: Roy Rapoport Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On October 26, 1995, ckk@uchicago.edu said: > >Got this interesting message the other day: > >>From: Liam Fernandez >>To: majordomo-owner@[host.uchicago.edu] >> >>hi an enemy on irc subscribed me to a bunch of lists on your server, can >>u please tell me how to get my name off of all of them at once? I guess this is the new version of ordering pizza for someone? -roy --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Roy S. Rapoport UNIX/Mac System Administrator rsr@ide.com I do not, of course, speak for IDE Phone: 415-543-1314 ext. 280 Fax: 415-543-0145 From list-managers-owner Thu Oct 26 13:23:10 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) id LAA18909 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 26 Oct 1995 11:43:22 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: miles.greatcircle.com: majordom set sender to list-managers-owner using -f Received: (smap@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) id LAA18901 for ; Thu, 26 Oct 1995 11:43:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fsm-1.pica.army.mil(129.139.164.101) by miles via smap (V1.3) id sma018883; Thu Oct 26 11:42:40 1995 Date: Thu, 26 Oct 95 14:42:07 EDT From: Info-LabVIEW List Maintainer To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: an interesting "prank"... Organization: Electronics Br, PMMDD, US Army ARDEC, Picatinny Arsenal, NJ Message-ID: <9510261442.aa03233@fsm-1.pica.army.mil> Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >Got this interesting message the other day: >>From: Liam Fernandez >>To: majordomo-owner@[host.uchicago.edu] >> >>hi an enemy on irc subscribed me to a bunch of lists on your server, can >>u please tell me how to get my name off of all of them at once? I had that happen to me within the last couple of days. Got a subscribe request via a WWW form and added that user. A day later got an unsub request. Sent the user a note telling him/her (him is my guess) that the subscription had been cancelled and asking why the short turnaround, particularly since AOL tells folks not to do that in their mailing list database (user had an AOL address). That's when I found out that the subscription had come from another person as a joke. Now I gotta check the referring host on my form subscriptions to see if they come from the address in the From: field. If they don't, I'll have to verify before adding them. Tom Coradeschi, Info-LabVIEW List Maintainer http://k-whiner.pica.army.mil/info-labview/info-labview.html From list-managers-owner Thu Oct 26 14:02:19 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) id NAA22154 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 26 Oct 1995 13:27:32 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: miles.greatcircle.com: majordom set sender to list-managers-owner using -f Received: (smap@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) id NAA22126 for ; Thu, 26 Oct 1995 13:27:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relay3.uu.net(192.48.96.8) by miles via smap (V1.3) id sma022118; Thu Oct 26 13:27:05 1995 Received: from kitsune.swcp.com by relay3.UU.NET with SMTP id QQzndx09513; Thu, 26 Oct 1995 16:24:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from lazlo@localhost) by kitsune.swcp.com (8.6.9/8.6.9) id OAA13577 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Thu, 26 Oct 1995 14:20:55 -0600 From: Lazlo Nibble Message-Id: <199510262020.OAA13577@kitsune.swcp.com> Subject: an interesting "prank"... To: list-managers@greatcircle.com (lm) Date: Thu, 26 Oct 1995 14:20:54 -0600 (MDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > Got this interesting message the other day: > >> hi an enemy on irc subscribed me to a bunch of lists on your server, can >> u please tell me how to get my name off of all of them at once? Similar prank: someone subscribed one of my lists to one of someone else's, and vice-versa. Luckily we both caught it quickly. I'm surprised that we don't see a lot more of this, now that Netscape and other web browsers have reduced mail forgery to a simple point-and-click operation. -- ::: Lazlo (lazlo@swcp.com; http://www.swcp.com/lazlo) From list-managers-owner Thu Oct 26 16:33:01 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) id OAA24133 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 26 Oct 1995 14:44:12 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: miles.greatcircle.com: majordom set sender to list-managers-owner using -f Received: (smap@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) id JAA15539 for ; Thu, 26 Oct 1995 09:41:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from swcp.com(198.59.115.2) by miles via smap (V1.3) id sma015529; Thu Oct 26 09:40:25 1995 Received: (from lazlo@localhost) by kitsune.swcp.com (8.6.9/8.6.9) id KAA00124 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Thu, 26 Oct 1995 10:38:13 -0600 From: Lazlo Nibble Message-Id: <199510261638.KAA00124@kitsune.swcp.com> Subject: Re: Mailinglist spamming countermeasures To: list-managers@greatcircle.com (lm) Date: Thu, 26 Oct 1995 10:38:12 -0600 (MDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > There are times I subscribe to a list because I have a valid work > reason to do so. Waiting a month to be able to send out a message > just won't do. I have a valid, list related, problem that I > need to get solved now. A friend at work and I were discussing this last week, and he's thinking about designing a patch for majordomo to do this "wait a month" thing. But his idea for the implementation is to bounce new-subscriber messages to the list admin for approval, not reject them outright. It's meant as a filter, not a brick wall. (I do agree with Roy that many of these ideas are overkill. But they're cathartic to think about.) -- ::: Lazlo (lazlo@swcp.com; http://www.swcp.com/lazlo) ::: On Now: Torch Song - Toward The Unknown Region From list-managers-owner Thu Oct 26 16:33:28 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) id QAA26207 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 26 Oct 1995 16:21:39 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: miles.greatcircle.com: majordom set sender to list-managers-owner using -f Received: (smap@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) id QAA26192 for ; Thu, 26 Oct 1995 16:21:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ttown.apci.com(204.27.156.3) by miles via smap (V1.3) id sma026188; Thu Oct 26 16:21:17 1995 Received: (from zukrp@localhost) by ttown.apci.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id TAA02811; Thu, 26 Oct 1995 19:10:04 -0400 Date: Thu, 26 Oct 1995 19:10:03 -0400 (EDT) From: Roland Zuk Reply-To: merkurlist To: list-managers@GreatCircle.Com Subject: Recommendation needed - MLM service provider for $'s In-Reply-To: <9510261659.AA02310@mercutio.admin.kth.se> Message-ID: X-Info: Forwarded by the Merkurlist mailing list (temporary site) X-Info: Address submissions to - merkurlist MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Can anyone recommend a commercial service provider with mailing list services? I am NOT looking for a freebie. I'm seeking a home for a small, specialty automotive enthusiast list with around 120 subscribers running 2-6 posts per day. The current host has proven unreliable and I need to move the list soon. I'd appreciate any suggestions on who I should contact. Thanks very much Roland Zuk From list-managers-owner Thu Oct 26 17:21:18 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) id QAA25704 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 26 Oct 1995 16:00:31 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: miles.greatcircle.com: majordom set sender to list-managers-owner using -f Received: (smap@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) id QAA25696 for ; Thu, 26 Oct 1995 16:00:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from netcom14.netcom.com(192.100.81.126) by miles via smap (V1.3) id sma025651; Thu Oct 26 16:00:04 1995 Received: from [129.46.82.84] by netcom14.netcom.com (8.6.12/Netcom) id PAA18977; Thu, 26 Oct 1995 15:55:49 -0700 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: Level Seven Design X-PGP-KeyID-Fprnt: 4AAF00E5 - 30D81F3484E6A83F 6EC8D7F0CAB3D265 X-PGP: http://www-swiss.ai.mit.edu/htbin/pks-extract-key.pl?op=get&search=lsd X-Floppyright: (f)1995 LSD.com _ Unlicensed retransmission prohibited. Date: Thu, 26 Oct 1995 15:57:47 -0700 To: Keith Moore From: Dave Del Torto Subject: Re: braindead transport sanity test Cc: Chip Rosenthal , list-managers@greatcircle.com (The List-Managers Mailing List) Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 8:43 am 10/26/95, Keith Moore wrote: [elided] >I'd hate to see a list manager that adapted >the kinds of messages it generated to suit the brain damage of >that recipient's mailer... ::uncloaking momentarily:: I wouldn't. You could always switch back. This AOL/CIS stuff is *really* gettin' me down. >sigh< dave ____________________________________________________________________________ "Voodoo Accupuncture. You don't even have to go: you'll just be walking down the street and suddenly, 'Ooohhhh, that's MUCH better...'" -Steven Wright From list-managers-owner Thu Oct 26 18:02:29 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) id OAA23994 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 26 Oct 1995 14:41:54 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: miles.greatcircle.com: majordom set sender to list-managers-owner using -f Received: (smap@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) id UAA15064 for ; Wed, 25 Oct 1995 20:43:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wildride.zilker.net(198.252.182.211) by miles via smap (V1.3) id sma015057; Wed Oct 25 20:43:03 1995 Received: (from meo@localhost) by schoneal.com (8.6.11/8.6.11) id WAA00514; Wed, 25 Oct 1995 22:42:31 -0500 Message-Id: <199510260342.WAA00514@schoneal.com> Subject: Re: Mailinglist spamming countermeasures To: ala@LunaCity.com (alyson l abramowitz) Date: Wed, 25 Oct 1995 22:42:31 -0500 (CDT) Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM, ala@hustle.rahul.net In-Reply-To: from "alyson l abramowitz" at Oct 25, 95 03:01:48 pm From: meo@schoneal.com (Miles O'Neal) Reply-To: meo@schoneal.com (Miles O'Neal) Organization: Schober O'Neal, Inc / Net Ads X-WWW-URL: http://www.netads.com/~meo/ X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk alyson l abramowitz said... | |BTW, I am concerned with the idea of teachers telling someone to |subscribe to a list as a teaching assignment. This seems like |a waste of administrator's times and an abuse of lists. I suspect |that if we put together a simple explainatory note for teachers |which could be sent to those teachers abusing the system and, perhaps, |another, which might be directed at Deans/Dept Heads this problem |might go away. I suspect its' one of ignorance rather than the |spammer's malice. What's needed is a way to make schools/colleges/universities/etc aware of the problem, without being obnoxious. Of course, if one particular place becomes obnoxious, a possible answer is to have the list[s] spam right back... From list-managers-owner Thu Oct 26 18:04:58 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) id OAA24117 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 26 Oct 1995 14:44:01 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: miles.greatcircle.com: majordom set sender to list-managers-owner using -f Received: (smap@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) id HAA13210 for ; Thu, 26 Oct 1995 07:50:16 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199510261450.HAA13210@miles.greatcircle.com> Received: from aeolus.ecy.wa.gov(165.151.26.150) by miles via smap (V1.3) id sma013181; Thu Oct 26 07:49:18 1995 Received: by aeolus.ecy.wa.gov (1.37.109.16/16.2) id AA089958650; Thu, 26 Oct 1995 07:44:10 -0700 From: Clint Bowman Subject: Re: Mailinglist spamming countermeasures To: ala@LunaCity.com (alyson l abramowitz) (alyson l abramowitz) Date: Thu, 26 Oct 95 7:44:09 PDT Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM, ala@hustle.rahul.net In-Reply-To: ; from "alyson l abramowitz" at Oct 25, 95 3:01 pm Mailer: Elm [revision: 70.85] Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Alyson L Abramowitz writes: > BTW, I am concerned with the idea of teachers telling someone to > subscribe to a list as a teaching assignment. This seems like > a waste of administrator's times and an abuse of lists. I suspect > that if we put together a simple explainatory note for teachers > which could be sent to those teachers abusing the system and, perhaps, > another, which might be directed at Deans/Dept Heads this problem > might go away. I suspect its' one of ignorance rather than the > spammer's malice. > Another solution, which would satisfy the teacher's intent as well as protect list managers time as well, would be to help some of the teachers set up a list that could be used by them for class assignments (like subscribing to a list.) -- Clint Bowman INTERNET: clint@ecy.wa.gov Air Quality Modeler INTERNET: clint@math.utah.edu Department of Ecology VOICE: (360) 407-6815 PO Box 47600 FAX: (360) 407-6802 Olympia, WA 98504-7600 From list-managers-owner Thu Oct 26 18:22:42 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) id OAA24154 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 26 Oct 1995 14:44:47 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: miles.greatcircle.com: majordom set sender to list-managers-owner using -f Received: (smap@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) id MAA20134 for ; Thu, 26 Oct 1995 12:25:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tango.rahul.net(192.160.13.5) by miles via smap (V1.3) id sma020123; Thu Oct 26 12:25:12 1995 Received: from bolero.rahul.net by tango.rahul.net with SMTP id AA01405 (5.67b8/IDA-1.5 for ); Thu, 26 Oct 1995 12:21:30 -0700 Received: from jive.rahul.net by bolero.rahul.net with SMTP id AA14435 (5.67b8/IDA-1.5); Thu, 26 Oct 1995 12:21:29 -0700 From: Steve Portigal Received: by jive.rahul.net (5.67b8/jive-a2i-1.0) id AA01334; Thu, 26 Oct 1995 12:21:21 -0700 Message-Id: <199510261921.AA01334@jive.rahul.net> Subject: Re: an interesting "prank"... To: ckk@uchicago.edu Date: Thu, 26 Oct 1995 12:21:20 -0700 (PDT) Cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com In-Reply-To: <199510261639.LAA09419@ornette.uchicago.edu> from "ckk@uchicago.edu" at Oct 26, 95 11:39:29 am Organization: GVO - Interface Design Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk The reason I joined this was because I was having problems with that. I received a HUGE HUGE number of subscriptions that were obviously forges. They all had the same format, the same "subscribe", the same bizarre type of adddress (tons of @ix.netcom.com, unusual when 20 of those come in the same torrent of subscriptions). Turns out that some were false addresses, some were real addresses. I mailed every postmaster, every user, and the postmasters of the sites which were being used to forge. Turns out that other list owneres were having the problem as well. I think all musical lists, but I'm not sure. It went on for weeks. Netcom claimed to have someone who was doing it and who PROMISED not to do it again. So no one even lost their account over it, yet they created thousands of fake messages. Very annoying. -- | steve portigal G V O | user interface dude | culturally aware interface design From list-managers-owner Fri Oct 27 23:06:31 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) id WAA15109 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 27 Oct 1995 22:04:18 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: miles.greatcircle.com: majordom set sender to list-managers-owner using -f Received: (smap@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) id WAA14873 for ; Fri, 27 Oct 1995 22:02:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mycroft.greatcircle.com(198.102.244.35) by miles via smap (V1.3) id smaz14265; Fri Oct 27 21:59:43 1995 Received: by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.10/SMI-4.1/Brent-950602) id CAA23468; Fri, 27 Oct 1995 02:54:21 -0700 Received: from uucp-gw.cc.uh.edu(129.7.1.11) by mycroft via smap (V1.3mjr) id sma023462; Fri Oct 27 02:53:21 1995 Received: from Taronga.COM by UUCP-GW.CC.UH.EDU with UUCP id AA24016 (5.67a/IDA-1.5 for list-managers@greatcircle.com); Fri, 27 Oct 1995 04:35:00 -0500 Received: (from arielle@localhost) by bonkers.taronga.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id EAA16643 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Fri, 27 Oct 1995 04:19:16 -0500 From: arielle@taronga.com (Stephanie da Silva) Message-Id: <199510270919.EAA16643@bonkers.taronga.com> Subject: Re: an interesting "prank"... To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Date: Fri, 27 Oct 1995 04:19:15 -0500 (CDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Info-LabVIEW List Maintainer: > Sent the user a note telling him/her (him is my guess) that the subscription > had been cancelled and asking why the short turnaround, I think shortest turnaround on my list (well one of them, I jsut started up a second on a majordomo no less!) was about 2 hours. I occasionally get these, from people expecting something different from what the list really is (it has a fairly tight focus). > Now I gotta check the referring host on my form subscriptions > to see if they come from the address in the From: field. I've been taking the address out of the header only since very early on, but because I discovered that people sometimes get their addresses wrong when they type them in the message. This can also have confusing side effects, like a recent subscription I had who signed up from a different account than he wanted the mail sent from. He then sent me a series of listserver commands (oh why can't people read the file I send them where it clearly states I'm not a listserver *sigh*) and when I asked him to stop, he told me he coudln't understand why I was sending him mail at that account and not at the one he wanted to receive mail from! I told him it was because he was *writing* me from that account and I was just R)eplying to his mail. So why couldn't he have written me from the account where he wanted the mail sent? (I know I'm missing something here). Bleh. From list-managers-owner Fri Oct 27 23:08:37 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) id WAA15826 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 27 Oct 1995 22:12:26 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: miles.greatcircle.com: majordom set sender to list-managers-owner using -f Received: (smap@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) id WAA15623 for ; Fri, 27 Oct 1995 22:09:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mycroft.greatcircle.com(198.102.244.35) by miles via smap (V1.3) id smaib4266; Fri Oct 27 22:01:30 1995 Received: by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.10/SMI-4.1/Brent-950602) id BAA17667; Thu, 26 Oct 1995 01:10:20 -0700 Received: from sacusr.mp.usbr.gov(140.214.12.2) by mycroft via smap (V1.3mjr) id sma017658; Thu Oct 26 01:10:05 1995 Received: by sacto.mp.usbr.gov (MX V4.1 VAX) id 38; Thu, 26 Oct 1995 01:14:41 PST Date: Thu, 26 Oct 1995 01:14:36 PST From: "Henry W. Miller" To: scs@lokkur.dexter.mi.us CC: list-managers@greatcircle.com, henrym@sacto.mp.usbr.gov Message-ID: <009986C8.E175B65E.38@sacto.mp.usbr.gov> Subject: Re: Mailinglist spamming countermeasures Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > From: MX%"scs@lokkur.dexter.mi.us" 25-OCT-1995 21:59:55.77 > Subj: Re: Mailinglist spamming countermeasures > Paul Vixie, keeper of the bind list and others, took an interesting > approach to spamming. He notified the list members of his actions with > the following note: > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Re: >*** ===>> World's *Cheapest* Way to get USA Magazine Subscription > > In case anyone wonders, my reply was as follows: > > |[gw.home:i386] sendfax -d 'Spam King@+1.718.967.1550' -D -R > |Mass marketing on Internet bears a heavy cost. You are evidently unaware > |that my mailing list has a fixed charge of US$1,000.00 per unsolicited > |off-topic posting. You may indicate your willingness to pay that rate by > |sending another unsolicited off-topic posting to any of the mailing lists > I > |run from my host. > | > |Paul Vixie > |FAX +1 415 747 0106 > |request id is 89 (group id 170) for host gw (1 file) > > I want my internet back. > > Paul ("Trapped In A World He Never Made") Vixie > -- > Paul Vixie > La Honda, CA "Illegitimibus non carborundum." > > pacbell!vixie!paul > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > I strongly approve, and am adopting this policy for my own lists. > > Steve > -- > ` . . . I'm a sysadmin, with an admitted preference for things I can > reboot over things I have to negotiate with . . . ' > Mike Shaver (shaver@neon.ingenia.com) Unfortunately, most of the spammers will just laugh in our faces and keep on doing it. I did send one spammer to one of my lists a notice that it required me 1.5 hours to clean up the mess his spam left on my system, and what address should I bill it to, and what method of payment was he going to use. But, AOL killed the account before that message got through... -HWM From list-managers-owner Fri Oct 27 23:18:36 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) id WAA17230 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 27 Oct 1995 22:32:08 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: miles.greatcircle.com: majordom set sender to list-managers-owner using -f Received: (smap@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) id WAA16975 for ; Fri, 27 Oct 1995 22:28:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mycroft.greatcircle.com(198.102.244.35) by miles via smap (V1.3) id smayd4266; Fri Oct 27 22:05:15 1995 Received: by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.10/SMI-4.1/Brent-950602) id DAA23641; Fri, 27 Oct 1995 03:59:24 -0700 From: bollow@math.ethz.ch Received: from frege-hg.math.ethz.ch(129.132.104.6) by mycroft via smap (V1.3mjr) id sma023637; Fri Oct 27 03:58:50 1995 Received: from vaden.math.ethz.ch (bollow@vaden.math.ethz.ch [129.132.146.136]) by frege.math.ethz.ch (8.6.4/Main-mathdept-mailer) with ESMTP id MAA04556 for ; Fri, 27 Oct 1995 12:04:43 +0100 Received: (bollow@localhost) by vaden.math.ethz.ch (8.6.9/D-MATH-client) id MAA06996; Fri, 27 Oct 1995 12:04:37 +0100 Date: Fri, 27 Oct 1995 12:04:37 +0100 Message-Id: <199510271104.MAA06996@vaden.math.ethz.ch> To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM In-reply-to: <199510270012.TAA12113@server.icon-stl.net> (sugar@icon-stl.net) Subject: Direct e-mail spam Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Greetings! I have today received my first "direct e-mail spam", by this I mean a spam not addressed to a newsgroup or mailing list, but directly to the e-mail address of the recipient. I'd expect that as more mailing lists get protected against spamming, the spammers will turn to direct e-mail spamming. The more clever ones will even create databases of potentially interested spam targets. (For example, the originator of the spam below seems to have somehow compiled a list of e-mail addresses of Christians) For this reason I think the time has come to start working on general countermeasures versus e-mail spams: What we need is a system which allows people who normally don't want to receive spam to have spamful e-mail messages automatically moved from the standard mailbox (e.g. in /var/spool/mail) to some other place (e.g. /var/spool/mailspam or whatever) Of course there should be support for protecting mailing list submission addresses in basically the same way as one goes about protecting any invidual e-mail address. I'd suggest that the next step should be to create an "antispam" mailing list (any volunteers?) with the purpose to discuss countermeasures against e-mail spam and to work together in implementing some. Greetings, Norbert. > Date: Thu, 26 Oct 1995 19:12:12 -0500 > X-Sender: sugar@mail.icon-stl.net > X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 > Mime-Version: 1.0 > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > From: sugar@icon-stl.net (Jerome Jenkins) (by way of sugar@icon-stl.net (Jerome Jenkins)) > > Hello, my name is Jerome Jenkins and I am a christian that sell neckties to > feed and clothe those that are in need. We sell nice christian neckties that > will support our ministry as well as a large selection of neckties on are > web page. > > I have emailed the address for our web page! > PS. I would also like to here your personal testimony! > > (when you purchase a necktie please put the code RO-28 on check or money order) > > > web page : http://www.icon-stl.net/~sugar/ > > -- Norbert Bollow, Zuerich, Switzerland. Admin of the CHURCHPLANTERS list. Email-To: bollow@math.ethz.ch PGP encrypted mail welcome. PGP public key available by 'finger bollow@gatekeeper.math.ethz.ch'. From list-managers-owner Sat Oct 28 11:06:32 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) id KAA08720 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 28 Oct 1995 10:39:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from access5.digex.net (access5.digex.net [205.197.245.196]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) with SMTP id KAA08711 for ; Sat, 28 Oct 1995 10:39:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from access.digex.net (qlHaDA/H1NHMY@access2.digex.net [205.197.245.193]) by access5.digex.net (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id NAA28648 ; for ; Sat, 28 Oct 1995 13:37:38 -0400 Date: Sat, 28 Oct 1995 13:37:38 -0400 Message-Id: <199510281737.NAA28648@access5.digex.net> X-Sender: jjflash@access.digex.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.1.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM From: jjflash Subject: How To Find A Site Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I am looking for a site to run a low volume list for a group of people (current and former campers and staff of my kids' camp). The camp is run by a non-profit foundation, so they have no money. I am a working stiff so I cannot afford big-time bucks to pay a provider to house a list (I would do the admin work, of course). I would even be willing to do it semi-manually with unix mail through my provider if I could get any decent filtering to work, but have had no success in this area. Does anyone know of a site that will accomodate me for some reasonable setup and maintenance fee (the cheapest I have seen so far is $400/year which is rediculous). Or, does anyone know of a reliable filtering program that would take sendmail mail and, depending on some criteria, either re-send it or file it (I could get a telnet-only account to do this kind of thing on for $9/month). Thanks, Jack From list-managers-owner Sat Oct 28 11:36:43 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) id LAA10433 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 28 Oct 1995 11:13:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from netcomsv.netcom.com (uucp2.netcom.com [163.179.3.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) with SMTP id LAA10426 for ; Sat, 28 Oct 1995 11:13:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from duke.sagarmatha.com by netcomsv.netcom.com with UUCP (8.6.12/SMI-4.1) id LAA26666; Sat, 28 Oct 1995 11:05:40 -0700 Received: by duke (Smail3.1.28.1 #64) id m0t9F7I-000gnIC; Sat, 28 Oct 95 10:32 PDT Message-Id: From: james@sagarmatha.com (James C. Armstrong) Subject: Latest Mail Spam To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Date: Sat, 28 Oct 1995 10:32:22 -0700 (PDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Anyone else getting this? According to unnamed sources, jim@info.oaktreex.com is alleged to have written: => From info.oaktreex.com!jim Sat Oct 28 10:12:08 1995 => From: jim@info.oaktreex.com => Date: Sat, 28 Oct 1995 10:03:24 -0400 => Message-Id: <199510281403.KAA00128@info.oaktreex.com> => To: my-list@info.oaktreex.com => Subject: Hi => (Advertisement for "At Cost computer Club" deleted.) -- James C. Armstrong, Jr. | I want a new toy james@sagarmatha.com | To keep my head expanding! | I want a new toy | Nothing too demanding... From list-managers-owner Sat Oct 28 23:11:14 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) id WAA10795 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 28 Oct 1995 22:40:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from netcom18.netcom.com (netcom18.netcom.com [192.100.81.131]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) with SMTP id MAA15149 for ; Sat, 28 Oct 1995 12:41:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: by netcom18.netcom.com (8.6.12/Netcom) id MAA24003; Sat, 28 Oct 1995 12:38:06 -0700 From: jadestar@netcom.com (JaDe) Message-Id: <199510281938.MAA24003@netcom18.netcom.com> Subject: Re: Mailinglist spamming countermeasures To: clint@ecy.wa.gov (Clint Bowman) Date: Sat, 28 Oct 1995 12:38:05 -0700 (PDT) Cc: ala@LunaCity.com, list-managers@GreatCircle.COM, ala@hustle.rahul.net In-Reply-To: <199510261450.HAA13210@miles.greatcircle.com> from "Clint Bowman" at Oct 26, 95 07:44:09 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > > Alyson L Abramowitz writes: > > BTW, I am concerned with the idea of teachers telling someone to > > subscribe to a list as a teaching assignment. This seems like > > a waste of administrator's times and an abuse of lists. I suspect > Another solution, which would satisfy the teacher's intent as well as > protect list managers time as well, would be to help some of the > teachers set up a list that could be used by them for class > assignments (like subscribing to a list.) Naw! Expect the teachers to _learn_ how to do something like that -- they might have to touch a keyboard. Actually it seems like it might be a great idea for each teacher of each such class to run a mailing list for participants of the class. Might have new students and and students from previous semesters (quarters, or whatever) and students from different sections of the same class, and maybe even students who couldn't take the class due to scheduling conflicts or registration/size limits all talking on the list. Obviously the mailing lists for various related classes should be combined. From list-managers-owner Sun Oct 29 00:06:23 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) id XAA11552 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 28 Oct 1995 23:48:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from suntan.tandem.com (suntan.tandem.com [192.216.221.8]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) with SMTP id XAA11545 for ; Sat, 28 Oct 1995 23:48:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zorch.sf-bay.org by suntan.tandem.com (8.6.12/suntan5.950313) for list-managers@greatcircle.com id XAA14796; Sat, 28 Oct 1995 23:46:24 -0700 Received: (from usenet@localhost) by zorch.sf-bay.org (8.6.11/8.6.9) id XAA08747 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Sat, 28 Oct 1995 23:22:12 -0700 Newsgroups: zorch.lists.list-managers Path: zorch.sf-bay.org!scott From: scott@zorch.sf-bay.org (Scott Hazen Mueller) Subject: Re: Direct e-mail spam Distribution: zorch Reply-To: scott@zorch.sf-bay.org Organization: At Home; Salida, CA Message-ID: References: <199510271104.MAA06996@vaden.math.ethz.ch> X-Nntp-Posting-Host: localhost.sf-bay.org Date: Sun, 29 Oct 1995 06:22:08 GMT Apparently-To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >I'd suggest that the next step should be to create an "antispam" mailing >list (any volunteers?) with the purpose to discuss countermeasures against >e-mail spam and to work together in implementing some. Well, I suppose it's time to mention here the 'spam@zorch.sf-bay.org' list. The list was started in an attempt to divert the ongoing spam discussions from the moderators@uunet.uu.net mailing list, and the membership is drawn primarily from Usenet moderators and other such folks. The subscription address is 'spam-request@zorch.sf-bay.org', and the discussion topics include practical and legal countermeasures, technological fixes, and a certain amount of information sharing. \scott From list-managers-owner Sun Oct 29 07:36:28 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) id HAA18651 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 29 Oct 1995 07:22:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from emout06.mail.aol.com (emout06.mail.aol.com [198.81.10.43]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) with SMTP id HAA18644 for ; Sun, 29 Oct 1995 07:22:29 -0800 (PST) From: PMDAtropos@aol.com Received: by emout06.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id KAA04240 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Sun, 29 Oct 1995 10:20:23 -0500 Date: Sun, 29 Oct 1995 10:20:23 -0500 Message-ID: <951029102023_92409842@emout06.mail.aol.com> To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: Direct e-mail spam Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk In a message dated 95-10-29 02:09:54 EST, scott@zorch.sf-bay.org (Scott Hazen Mueller) writes: >Well, I suppose it's time to mention here the 'spam@zorch.sf-bay.org' list. [ ... ] There's also SPAM-L (running on LISTSERV). -- __ David B. O'Donnell (atropos@aol.net, PMDAtropos@aol.com) \/ AOL Internet Feedback/Response/Information Team Manager Tel. +1 703/448-8700 x3725 - FAX +1 703/883-1514 Belief-L, GLB-News -Press -Discuss, SoftRevu List Owner/Editor http://www.cais.com/atropos/ ---- "The spam stops here." From list-managers-owner Sun Oct 29 12:37:06 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) id MAA24560 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 29 Oct 1995 12:26:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from sgi.sgi.com (SGI.COM [192.48.153.1]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) with SMTP id HAA18956 for ; Sun, 29 Oct 1995 07:51:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from lunch.engr.sgi.com by sgi.sgi.com via ESMTP (950405.SGI.8.6.12/910110.SGI) id HAA28185; Sun, 29 Oct 1995 07:49:39 -0800 Received: by lunch.engr.sgi.com (950511.SGI.8.6.12.PATCH526/940406.SGI.AUTO) id HAA02148; Sun, 29 Oct 1995 07:47:17 -0800 From: close@lunch.engr.sgi.com (Diane Barlow Close) Message-Id: <199510291547.HAA02148@lunch.engr.sgi.com> Subject: Re: Spam-l?? To: PMDAtropos@aol.com Date: Sun, 29 Oct 1995 07:47:16 -0800 (PST) Cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com In-Reply-To: <951029102023_92409842@emout06.mail.aol.com> from "PMDAtropos@aol.com" at Oct 29, 1995 10:20:23 AM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL0a8] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk PMDAtropos@aol.com wrote: > There's also SPAM-L (running on LISTSERV). And the subscribe address for this list is listserve@???? Does anyone know the complete address? Or do I need to send a search query to NEW-LIST (via LISTSERV@vm1.nodak.edu)? Thanks! -- Diane Close close@lunch.engr.sgi.com I'm at lunch all day. :-) From list-managers-owner Sun Oct 29 15:06:36 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) id OAA00385 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 29 Oct 1995 14:48:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from ilinx.ilinx.com (ilinx.bctel.net [204.174.66.10]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) with SMTP id OAA00377 for ; Sun, 29 Oct 1995 14:48:19 -0800 (PST) Received: by ilinx.ilinx.com (/\==/\ Smail3.1.28.1 #28.1) id ; Sun, 29 Oct 95 11:43 PST Message-Id: From: brian@ilinx.ilinx.com (Brian J. Murrell) Date: Sun, 29 Oct 1995 11:43:13 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: Direct e-mail spam To: bollow@math.ethz.ch Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: <199510271104.MAA06996@vaden.math.ethz.ch> Reply-To: brian@ilinx.bctel.net X-Mailer: Ishmail 1.1-950814-386 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk from the quill of bollow@math.ethz.ch on scroll <199510271104.MAA06996@vaden.math.ethz.ch> > I have today received my first "direct e-mail spam", by this I mean a > spam not addressed to a newsgroup or mailing list, but directly to the > e-mail address of the recipient. I'd expect that as more mailing lists > get protected against spamming, the spammers will turn to direct e-mail > spamming. The more clever ones will even create databases of potentially > interested spam targets. (For example, the originator of the spam below > seems to have somehow compiled a list of e-mail addresses of Christians) I would think that you would be more concerned with the fact that this "unknown" managed to cultivate information on you. How did he/she know you had a particular interest in Christianity?? Perhaps it's coincidence, but perhaps it's not. Are you particularly vocal on the subject?? b. -- Brian J. Murrell brian@ilinx.com InterLinx Support Services, Inc. brian@wimsey.com North Vancouver, B.C. 604 983 UNIX Platform and Brand Independent UNIX Support - R3.2 - R4 - BSD From list-managers-owner Mon Oct 30 04:53:06 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) id EAA06126 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 30 Oct 1995 04:47:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from helena.hsholland.nl (helena.hsholland.nl [145.81.32.3]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) with SMTP id EAA06112 for ; Mon, 30 Oct 1995 04:47:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from cd.hsholland.nl (cd.hsholland.nl [145.81.32.250]) by helena.hsholland.nl (8.6.9/8.6.9) with ESMTP id OAA16211 for ; Mon, 30 Oct 1995 14:54:19 +0100 Received: from HH5A/MAILQ5A by cd.hsholland.nl (Mercury 1.21); 30 Oct 95 13:41:58 Received: from MAILQ5A by HH5A (Mercury 1.21); 30 Oct 95 13:41:30 From: "Robert Ensor" Organization: Hogeschool Holland Centr. Diensten To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Date: Mon, 30 Oct 1995 13:41:27 Subject: Information on DOS-based listservers Reply-to: hh5a/ren@helena.hsholland.nl Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail v3.22 Message-ID: <65C5F0A7D48@cd.hsholland.nl> Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I am a lecturer looking for ways of setting up a listserver facility for a fairly small constituency of students and lecturers. As we work with a DOS server, the software would have to be able to run in a DOS and preferably a Windows environment. Most of the information I have managed to obtain seems to assume the availability of a UNIX platform. Does anyone know of DOS/Windows software which would do the trick? Robert Ensor From list-managers-owner Mon Oct 30 06:27:07 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) id FAA07826 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 30 Oct 1995 05:59:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from emout05.mail.aol.com (emout05.mail.aol.com [198.81.10.37]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) with SMTP id FAA07819 for ; Mon, 30 Oct 1995 05:59:44 -0800 (PST) From: NetConsult@aol.com Received: by emout05.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id IAA18821; Mon, 30 Oct 1995 08:59:42 -0500 Date: Mon, 30 Oct 1995 08:59:42 -0500 Message-ID: <951030085941_58100606@emout05.mail.aol.com> To: hh5a/ren@helena.hsholland.nl, list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: Information on DOS-based ... Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk If you have FTP, try ftp.uu.net/usenet/news.answers/mail/list-admin/software-faq. The document details many of the mail list managers. It is about 23 pages long and seems fairly comprehensive. Regards, Bob (Dallas, TX) From list-managers-owner Mon Oct 30 09:26:22 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) id IAA13262 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 30 Oct 1995 08:45:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from ide.com (claven.IDE.COM [192.18.82.1]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) with SMTP id IAA13255 for ; Mon, 30 Oct 1995 08:45:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from shadowfx (78mac7.IDE.COM) by ide.com (4.1/IDE-1.0) id AA08901; Mon, 30 Oct 95 08:44:39 PST Received: by shadowfx (5.x/ide-1.0) id AA05476; Mon, 30 Oct 1995 08:44:31 -0800 Message-Id: <9510301644.AA05476@shadowfx> To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: Direct e-mail spam Date: Mon, 30 Oct 1995 08:44:24 -0800 From: Roy Rapoport Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On October 27, 1995, bollow@math.ethz.ch said: >For this reason I think the time has come to start working on general >countermeasures versus e-mail spams: What we need is a system which >allows people who normally don't want to receive spam to have spamful >e-mail messages automatically moved from the standard mailbox (e.g. in >/var/spool/mail) to some other place (e.g. /var/spool/mailspam or whatever) >Of course there should be support for protecting mailing list submission >addresses in basically the same way as one goes about protecting any >invidual e-mail address. The technology already exists -- I use MH to read my mail and I could quite easily make it so anything that doesn't fit the 'rules' I make gets moved to a temporary file -- basically, all I'd have to do is list the mailing lists I'm on and the individuals who send me mail. Of course, this would be easier at work (less individuals, more mailing lists), but it would still be quite doable at my personal account. Again, I guess it depends on how annoying you find it -- I'm the sort of person who signs up on junk mail lists because I like the extra info -- a day without junkmail is a sad day indeed for me :) So I wouldn't particularly want to filter my mail that way .... -roy --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Roy S. Rapoport UNIX/Mac System Administrator rsr@ide.com I do not, of course, speak for IDE Phone: 415-543-1314 ext. 280 Fax: 415-543-0145 From list-managers-owner Mon Oct 30 11:13:57 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) id IAA13490 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 30 Oct 1995 08:58:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (mycroft.greatcircle.com [198.102.244.35]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) with SMTP id IAA13483 for ; Mon, 30 Oct 1995 08:58:11 -0800 (PST) Received: by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.10/SMI-4.1/Brent-950602) id IAA01957; Mon, 30 Oct 1995 08:58:09 -0800 Received: from swcp.com(198.59.115.2) by mycroft via smap (V1.3mjr) id sma001954; Mon Oct 30 08:57:36 1995 Received: (from lazlo@localhost) by kitsune.swcp.com (8.6.9/8.6.9) id JAA00603 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Mon, 30 Oct 1995 09:56:11 -0700 From: Lazlo Nibble Message-Id: <199510301656.JAA00603@kitsune.swcp.com> Subject: Magazine Subscription spam makes another pass... To: list-managers@greatcircle.com (lm) Date: Mon, 30 Oct 1995 09:56:10 -0700 (MST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk [This time out there's a *From:* line with twenty or so people on it, and a bogus "Approved:" header. Didn't make it to the list. -Laz] > From exotica-owner Sat Oct 28 16:47:00 1995 > Received: from squeaky.free.org (root@squeaky.free.org [199.3.242.2]) by xmission.xmission.com (8.7.1/8.6.12) with SMTP id QAA05075 for ; Sat, 28 Oct 1995 16:46:52 -0600 (MDT) > Received: from [199.3.242.49] (pm1-65.ixc.net [198.70.48.65]) by squeaky.free.org (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id QAA11892; Sat, 28 Oct 1995 16:39:11 -0500 > X-Sender: yoshio@osak.ac.jp (Unverified) > Message-Id: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > Reply-To: potential.new.members.info@0.5.5.1.7.6.9.8.1.7.1.tpc.int > Approved: moderator > X-Priority: 1 (Highest) > Date: Sun, 29 Oct 1995 07:01:47 +0900 > To: yoshio@osak.ac.jp > From: yoshio@osaka.ac.jp, agc03455@niftyserv.or.jp, agc03455@niftyserv.or.jp, > abd03395@niftyserv.or.jp, nak@sinnica.edu.tw, chu@aoone.net.au, > jtw@dialicks.co.nz, harry@nitec.ac.jp, leeni@osaka.ac.jp, gar@unee.edu, > seng@pll.my, tox04894@niftyserv.or.jp, rty02834@niftyserv.or.jp, > jui@pll.my, hre@pll.my, kare@osaka.ac.jp, are04255@niftyserv.or.jp, > ytr03785@niftyserv.or.jp, anb02395@niftyserv.or.jp, tfg@sinnica.edu.tw, > vea@aoone.net.au, yre@dialicks.co.nz, alan@nitec.ac.jp, > naga@osaka.ac.jp, > set@unee.edu (Association of International Students, Executive Board of Directors, > Japan Chapter) > Subject: ===>> FREE 1 yr. Magazine Sub sent worldwide- 295+ Popular USA Titles > Status: RO [...] > REQUEST FOR MORE INFO: please return *only* this section only via > internet email to: > > potential.new.members.info@0.5.5.1.7.6.9.8.1.7.1.tpc.int [!] -- ::: Lazlo (lazlo@swcp.com; http://www.swcp.com/lazlo) From list-managers-owner Mon Oct 30 11:27:52 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) id KAA17057 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 30 Oct 1995 10:58:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from arl-img-5.compuserve.com (arl-img-5.compuserve.com [198.4.7.5]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) with SMTP id KAA17050 for ; Mon, 30 Oct 1995 10:58:39 -0800 (PST) Received: by arl-img-5.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id NAA28814; Mon, 30 Oct 1995 13:58:34 -0500 Date: 30 Oct 95 13:57:06 EST From: To: Subject: Re: Information on DOS-based listservers Message-ID: <951030185705_702420.204300_BHD58-16@CompuServe.COM> Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Hi Robert There are a couple of FAQs on this, which concentrate on Unix but do include some DOS-based info. Addresses are: There's a powerful one for cc:mail, which does ftp-by-mail, digests, security and offers majordomo/listserv/mailbase command synonyms- the web page for it is http://world.std.com/~dalewj/Tristero.html cheers ======================================================================== Jeffrey R Burrows (jey@almac.co.uk, CompuServe:100010,2007) ------------------------------------------------------------------------ "Robert Frost, the distinguished New England poet, used to define a liberal as someone who refused to take his own side in an argument." "Dreaming of JFK", The Economist, 17 March 1984 ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: Information on DOS-based listservers Author: REN@cd.hsholland.nl at Internet Date: 30/10/95 08:14 X-mailer: Pegasus Mail v3.22 Message-ID: <65C5F0A7D48@cd.hsholland.nl> Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I am a lecturer looking for ways of setting up a listserver facility for a fairly small constituency of students and lecturers. As we work with a DOS server, the software would have to be able to run in a DOS and preferably a Windows environment. Most of the information I have managed to obtain seems to assume the availability of a UNIX platform. Does anyone know of DOS/Windows software which would do the trick? Robert Ensor From list-managers-owner Mon Oct 30 11:40:32 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) id LAA17603 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 30 Oct 1995 11:13:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from Arizona.EDU (Penny.Telcom.Arizona.EDU [128.196.128.217]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) with ESMTP id LAA17596 for ; Mon, 30 Oct 1995 11:13:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from sun1paztcn.wr.usgs.gov by Arizona.EDU (PMDF V5.0-5 #2381) id <01HX1UE101PSBV7LYR@Arizona.EDU>; Mon, 30 Oct 1995 12:13:30 -0700 (MST) Received: from localhost by sun1paztcn.wr.usgs.gov (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA08389; Mon, 30 Oct 1995 12:12:28 -0700 (MST) Date: Mon, 30 Oct 1995 12:12:28 -0700 From: Renaissance Man Subject: Re: Information on DOS-based listservers In-reply-to: "Your message of Mon, 30 Oct 1995 13:41:27." <65C5F0A7D48@cd.hsholland.nl> To: hh5a/ren@helena.hsholland.nl Cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com, doug@sun1paztcn.wr.usgs.gov Message-id: <9510301912.AA08389@sun1paztcn.wr.usgs.gov> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >I am a lecturer looking for ways of setting up a listserver facility >for a fairly small constituency of students and lecturers. As we work >with a DOS server, the software would have to be able to run in a DOS >and preferably a Windows environment. Most of the information I have >managed to obtain seems to assume the availability of a UNIX >platform. Does anyone know of DOS/Windows software which would do the >trick? How much control do you have over the PC? The reason I ask is that if you don't mind changing things a little, you can run a full fledged server that can include FTP, email, gopher, and the World Wide Web... The cheapest way to do that is to install Linux, which is a free Unix like operating system that will run all the unix services for you. I have one of my 486 computers running Linux, and I have Majordomo, Squirrel and the NCSA Web server all running on it... Plus I have anonymous FTP set up... If you want more information on Linux, please reply to me and I'll try to answer all of your questions. (BTW, Linux requires at least a 386 processor, but if you want to run a decent server of any other kind you will probably want at least a 486 anyway.) If you want to set up a good Internet server and stick with commercial operating systems, Windows NT provides a much better server environment, although it does require a higher powered computer than Linux does. And of course, Windows NT isn't the cheapest thing anyway. You have to pay for what you get. ;) The nice thing is that Windows NT requires very little maintenance once it is set up. (Any form of Unix will require a lot more maintenance than any DOS or Windows based computer.) If you must stick with Windows 3.1 or DOS, there are several TCP/IP packages available that may provide what you want. Quarterdeck, of QEMM fame, has a web server available, although that doesn't seem to be what you are asking for. There are many other commercial vendors of DOS and Windows software. The ones that I know of are Chameleon and PC-TCP... I don't know whether they specifically include any email server capabilities... (It seems to me that DOS and Windows are really designed more as single user workstations...) If you really are on a budget, and want to stick with DOS, you might want to investigate KA9Q, which is a free TCP/IP setup for DOS. I think it is available from FTP.UCSD.EDU, but I don't know what kind of email services it provides... -Doug Doug Wellington doug@sun1paztcn.wr.usgs.gov System and Network Administrator US Geological Survey Tucson, AZ Project Office (602) 670-6821 x26 According to proposed Federal guidelines, this message is a "non-record". Hmm, I wonder if _everything_ I say is a "non-record"... From list-managers-owner Mon Oct 30 13:53:06 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) id MAA25588 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 30 Oct 1995 12:38:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (mycroft.greatcircle.com [198.102.244.35]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) with SMTP id MAA25581 for ; Mon, 30 Oct 1995 12:38:16 -0800 (PST) Received: by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.10/SMI-4.1/Brent-950602) id MAA02985; Mon, 30 Oct 1995 12:38:15 -0800 Received: from dorite1.iquest.net(206.27.192.70) by mycroft via smap (V1.3mjr) id sma002983; Mon Oct 30 12:37:30 1995 Received: from ts1-ind-10.iquest.net by dorite1.iquest.net with smtp (Smail3.1.28.1 #16) id m0tA0q4-00034PC; Mon, 30 Oct 95 15:29 EST Message-Id: Date: Mon, 30 Oct 95 15:29 EST X-Sender: amys@pop.iquest.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: NetConsult@aol.com, hh5a/ren@helena.hsholland.nl, list-managers@greatcircle.com From: amys@iquest.net (Amy Stinson) Subject: Re: Information on DOS-based ... Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 08:59 AM 10/30/95 -0500, NetConsult@aol.com wrote: >If you have FTP, try >ftp.uu.net/usenet/news.answers/mail/list-admin/software-faq. > >The document details many of the mail list managers. It is about 23 pages >long and seems fairly comprehensive. > >Regards, >Bob >(Dallas, TX) That FAQ has no info on DOS based software. I've *heard* there's one that runs on Windows NT, but I've not run into it. Amy From list-managers-owner Mon Oct 30 13:53:14 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) id NAA26391 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 30 Oct 1995 13:06:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from xroads.vthrc.uq.edu.au (xroads.vthrc.uq.edu.au [130.102.4.16]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) with SMTP id NAA26370 for ; Mon, 30 Oct 1995 13:06:17 -0800 (PST) Received: (mailwrap@localhost) by xroads.vthrc.uq.edu.au (8.6.9/8.6.3) id HAA19011 for ; Tue, 31 Oct 1995 07:05:59 +1000 Received: from arundel.vthrc.uq.edu.au(130.102.4.21) by xroads.vthrc.uq.edu.au. via smap (V1.3mjr) id sma019009; Tue Oct 31 07:05:21 1995 X-Sender: thomas@pop3.vthrc.uq.oz.au. Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 31 Oct 1995 07:05:38 +1000 To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM From: D.Thomas@vthrc.uq.edu.au (Danny Thomas) Subject: only one msg for people on multiple lists? Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Howdie, I'm not actually a mailing-list manager, so my question is pretty basic and wasn't answered by a cursory flick through the majordomo docs. In any case the question is more general than majordomo. Our uni runs quite a few local lists and I was just reminded that cross-posting leads to many people getting multiple copies of a message. 1) Do any/some/most mailing-list managers provide an option so people subscribed to multiple lists only receive one copy? As in sendmail aliases. Manual maintenance of the subscriber lists seems impractical and error-prone. 2) If so, is it possible for the headers to be set up so that filters still work? [I'm not sure what the right word is, but I'm using filters to mean the client's mail-system configured to do different handling dependent on headers, eg sent off a pager alarm if subject starts 'URGENT', put in a special mailbox is message appears to be from list-managers, etc] cheers, Danny Thomas (D.Thomas@vthrc.uq.edu.au) PS I only get the digest and would probably appreciate an email copy of any message sent to the list. From list-managers-owner Mon Oct 30 13:53:22 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) id MAA25466 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 30 Oct 1995 12:33:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from relay4.UU.NET (relay4.UU.NET [192.48.96.14]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) with ESMTP id MAA25459 for ; Mon, 30 Oct 1995 12:33:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from skyhawk.ecc.engr.uky.edu by relay4.UU.NET with SMTP id QQznss14287; Mon, 30 Oct 1995 15:32:36 -0500 (EST) Received: (from morgan@localhost) by skyhawk.ecc.engr.uky.edu (8.6.10/8.6.10) id PAA16380; Mon, 30 Oct 1995 15:29:16 -0500 Date: Mon, 30 Oct 1995 15:29:16 -0500 From: Wes Morgan Message-Id: <199510302029.PAA16380@skyhawk.ecc.engr.uky.edu> To: spam-l@eva.dc.lsoft.com Subject: Latest magazine spam Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Examining the latest magazine spam, we find: >> From: yoshio@osaka.ac.jp, agc03455@niftyserv.or.jp, agc03455@niftyserv.or.jp, >> abd03395@niftyserv.or.jp, nak@sinnica.edu.tw, chu@aoone.net.au, >> jtw@dialicks.co.nz, harry@nitec.ac.jp, leeni@osaka.ac.jp, gar@unee.edu, >> seng@pll.my, tox04894@niftyserv.or.jp, rty02834@niftyserv.or.jp, >> jui@pll.my, hre@pll.my, kare@osaka.ac.jp, are04255@niftyserv.or.jp, >> ytr03785@niftyserv.or.jp, anb02395@niftyserv.or.jp, tfg@sinnica.edu.tw, >> vea@aoone.net.au, yre@dialicks.co.nz, alan@nitec.ac.jp, >> naga@osaka.ac.jp, set@unee.edu (Association of International >> Students, Executive Board of Directors, Japan Chapter) As you might imagine, all of these addresses are bogus. Some of them are *really* close to legitimate addresses (there *is* a niftyserve.or.jp, for instance), but none of them check out. I suspect that this is just thrown in there for the sake of appearance (it *looks* like a group of international students, right? the .my domain is Malaysia, .tw is Taiwan, et cetera) I also notice that Message-ID is the same in the 5 copies of this that I have on file. (It points to octet.com) The best bet for a tracedown is: >> Reply-To: potential.new.members.info@0.5.5.1.7.6.9.8.1.7.1.tpc.int As I understand it, this (tpc.int) is an Internet-to-fax domain. If one looks at this address backwards, one finds: 1-718-967-1550 which would be a phone number in (I think) New York City, USA. This num- ber is answered by a modem. Digging into the tpc.int domain, we find the authoritative name server for the domain is: dig> ;; ANSWERS: dig> tpc.int. 86400 SOA pele.ocms.ox.ac.uk. tpcadmin.bioch.ox.ac.uk. ( dig> 95102400 ;serial dig> 21600 ;refresh dig> 1800 ;retry dig> 604800 ;expire dig> 86400 ) ;minim It would seem, then, that tpcadmin@bioch.ox.ac.uk and, of course, postmaster@pele.ocms.ox.ac.uk would be the logical places to ask about the ownership of this particular address. Email to postmaster@pele.ocms.ox.ac.uk bounced with a "cannot append to /var/spool/mail/root" error; I'll drop a note to the tpcadmin ad- dress next. --Wes From list-managers-owner Mon Oct 30 13:53:29 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) id NAA26312 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 30 Oct 1995 13:03:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from ornette.uchicago.edu (ornette.uchicago.edu [128.135.99.101]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) with SMTP id NAA26303 for ; Mon, 30 Oct 1995 13:03:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost.uchicago.edu [127.0.0.1]) by ornette.uchicago.edu (8.6.10/8.6.11) with ESMTP id PAA06136 for ; Mon, 30 Oct 1995 15:03:27 -0600 Message-Id: <199510302103.PAA06136@ornette.uchicago.edu> X-Mailer: exmh version 1.6.4 10/10/95 Reply-To: ckk@uchicago.edu From: ckk@uchicago.edu To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: Direct e-mail spam In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 27 Oct 1995 12:04:37 BST." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Mon, 30 Oct 1995 15:03:26 -0600 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >I'd suggest that the next step should be to create an "antispam" mailing >list (any volunteers?) with the purpose to discuss countermeasures against >e-mail spam and to work together in implementing some. The Usenet newsgroup news.admin.net-abuse.misc has had some threads following up on email "spam" lately. It was established originally to deal with attacks on Usenet, but it's broadened to deal with email attacks as well. Apparently the success of "cancelmoose" type operations in Usenet, daemons which detect and immediately cancel "Make Money Fast" or any article which is posted too many times according to their "Breidbart index" which makes it EMP "Extensive Multiple Postings" aka "spam", has driven the known marketing scum like Jeff Slaton the "SpamKing", and "Crazy Kevin Lipsitz", to attack our mailing lists instead. So it's only going to get worse, for mailing lists, as more of the marketing scum give up on Usenet spamming and hit lists instead. There are already several people making money by charging advertisers, to take their message and send it out unsolicited to mailing lists. They are forging their return address so you can't reply to them. Sometimes they forge it to deliberately implicate an innocent person as the sender. At least on news.admin.net-abuse.misc, people have started fighting back by sharing info and taking their case to the service providers. Some people are even digging up and posting the personal info like home phone number and driver's license records, on the worst most blatant and unapologetic repeat offenders (Jeff Slaton the "SpamKing" being the worst at the moment). One currently ongoing email spam is this "FREE! Magazine Subscriptions" one, which keeps mutating and appearing again on various mailing lists (I got another one today through the header-people mailing list, and several other lists were hit too, with forged headers purporting to be From: and To: some addresses in Japan). The culprit in each case, apparently, according to the research shared on news.admin.net-abuse.misc, is this guy Kevin Lipsitz, in Staten Island NY, calling himself "Crazy Kevin", who actually lists his own Fax machine number in the messages. He always hits the Net from a SLIP dialin and sends his SMTP messages through ixc.net. Most mailing list gateways remove the Received: headers from the message that pertain to its transit before hitting the list server host itself, thus erasing his tracks. You might not like all those Received: headers but they can be crucial in tracking down these scumbags attacking us now. His last several messages all have forged To: and From: headers, which frame innocent victims as if they are the source (as I said, this time it's some people in Japan). So he's viciously targetting specific people, knowing that they'll be flamed by recipients who fall for the To: and From: forgery. Chris Koenigsberg ckk@uchicago.edu From list-managers-owner Mon Oct 30 16:02:35 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) id PAA01978 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 30 Oct 1995 15:18:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from SEARN.SUNET.SE (searn.sunet.se [192.36.125.4]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) with SMTP id PAA01971 for ; Mon, 30 Oct 1995 15:18:02 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199510302318.PAA01971@miles.greatcircle.com> Received: from SEARN.SUNET.SE by SEARN.SUNET.SE (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 5373; Tue, 31 Oct 95 00:17:49 +0100 Received: from SEARN.SUNET.SE (NJE origin ERIC@SEARN) by SEARN.SUNET.SE (LMail V1.2b/1.8b) with RFC822 id 3848; Tue, 31 Oct 1995 00:17:49 +0100 Date: Tue, 31 Oct 1995 00:14:34 +0100 From: Eric Thomas Subject: Re: Information on DOS-based ... To: NetConsult@aol.com, hh5a/ren@helena.hsholland.nl, list-managers@greatcircle.com, Amy Stinson In-Reply-To: Message of Mon, 30 Oct 95 15:29 EST from list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Mon, 30 Oct 95 15:29 EST Amy Stinson said: >That FAQ has no info on DOS based software. I've *heard* there's one >that runs on Windows NT, but I've not run into it. LISTSERV runs on Windows NT and Windows 95 (check www.lsoft.com). DOS, well, not many network hubs still run that, not to mention how many will be left a year from now :-) As far as LISTSERV is concerned, DOS can't be supported because of the 16-bit problem. Eric From list-managers-owner Mon Oct 30 17:25:11 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) id QAA06226 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 30 Oct 1995 16:57:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from library.ummed.edu (library.ummed.edu [146.189.64.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) with ESMTP id QAA06219 for ; Mon, 30 Oct 1995 16:57:16 -0800 (PST) Received: (from naleks@localhost) by library.ummed.edu (8.7.1/8.7.1) id TAA30070; Mon, 30 Oct 1995 19:57:08 -0500 Date: Mon, 30 Oct 1995 19:57:08 -0500 From: Norm Aleks Message-Id: <199510310057.TAA30070@library.ummed.edu> To: list-managers@greatcircle.com In-reply-to: amys@iquest.net's message of Mon, 30 Oct 95 15:29 EST Subject: Re: Information on DOS-based ... References: Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk [Amy Stinson] > At 08:59 AM 10/30/95 -0500, NetConsult@aol.com wrote: > >If you have FTP, try > >ftp.uu.net/usenet/news.answers/mail/list-admin/software-faq. > > > >The document details many of the mail list managers. It is about 23 > >pages long and seems fairly comprehensive. > > That FAQ has no info on DOS based software. I've *heard* there's one > that runs on Windows NT, but I've not run into it. I'm the person who put together the MLM software FAQ, and indeed it has very little information on DOS packages. I am really, truly about to release a new version of the FAQ, and it will have three DOS packages and one Windows 95/Windows NT package listed. I will write a note to this list when the revised FAQ is available, along with instructions on getting it. But, till then, the packages are: for DOS with UUCP, Smof Listserver, V-Mailserver, and Waffle File Server (Smof is actually in the current version of the FAQ too); for Windows NT/Windows 95, L-Soft LISTSERV. The DOS packages are all available on SIMTEL mirrors like oak.oakland.edu; the L-Soft package is available at ftp.lsoft.com. Please write to me if you know of any others ... thanks. Norm -- I don't want your body if your heart's not in it From list-managers-owner Mon Oct 30 21:54:34 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) id VAA22694 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 30 Oct 1995 21:27:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail02.mail.aol.com (mail02.mail.aol.com [152.163.172.66]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) with SMTP id OAA00507 for ; Sun, 29 Oct 1995 14:54:05 -0800 (PST) From: PMDAtropos@aol.com Received: by mail02.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id RAA00110; Sun, 29 Oct 1995 17:52:00 -0500 Date: Sun, 29 Oct 1995 17:52:00 -0500 Message-ID: <951029175159_57650691@mail02.mail.aol.com> To: close@lunch.engr.sgi.com cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: Spam-l?? Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk In a message dated 95-10-29 10:50:02 EST, close@lunch.engr.sgi.com (Diane Barlow Close) writes: >And the subscribe address for this list is listserve@???? Does anyone >know the complete address? Or do I need to send a search query to >NEW-LIST (via LISTSERV@vm1.nodak.edu)? Thanks! You can either subscribe via LISTSERV@LISTSERV.NET, or directly to LISTSERV@PEACH.EASE.LSOFT.COM. (If you're looking for a specific LISTSERV-run list, you can also send INFO listname to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.NET, which will write you back and tell you where your query has been forwarded.) -- __ David B. O'Donnell (atropos@aol.net, PMDAtropos@aol.com) \/ AOL Internet Feedback/Response/Information Team Manager Tel. +1 703/448-8700 x3725 - FAX +1 703/883-1514 Belief-L, GLB-News -Press -Discuss, SoftRevu List Owner/Editor http://www.cais.com/atropos/ ---- "The spam stops here." From list-managers-owner Mon Oct 30 21:58:55 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) id VAA22647 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 30 Oct 1995 21:27:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from library.ummed.edu (library.ummed.edu [146.189.64.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) with ESMTP id MAA25542 for ; Sun, 29 Oct 1995 12:56:26 -0800 (PST) Received: (from naleks@localhost) by library.ummed.edu (8.7.1/8.7.1) id PAA22405; Sun, 29 Oct 1995 15:54:18 -0500 Date: Sun, 29 Oct 1995 15:54:18 -0500 From: Norm Aleks Message-Id: <199510292054.PAA22405@library.ummed.edu> To: close@lunch.engr.sgi.com (Diane Barlow Close) CC: PMDAtropos@aol.com, list-managers@GreatCircle.COM In-reply-to: close@lunch.engr.sgi.com's message of Sun, 29 Oct 1995 07:47:16 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: Spam-l?? References: <951029102023_92409842@emout06.mail.aol.com> <199510291547.HAA02148@lunch.engr.sgi.com> Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk [Diane Barlow Close] > > There's also SPAM-L (running on LISTSERV). > > And the subscribe address for this list is listserve@???? Does anyone > know the complete address? Or do I need to send a search query to > NEW-LIST (via LISTSERV@vm1.nodak.edu)? Thanks! Any LISTSERV site will accept the subscription request ... they share a list of public lists and forward requests appropriately. So you could use LISTSERV@vm1.nodak.edu, or LISTSERV@LISTSERV.NET, or any other. Write JOIN SPAM-L Diane Barlow Close (you could say SUBSCRIBE too, of course, but it's easier to misspell :-) ) Norm -- "Used Cars: Why go elsewhere to be cheated? Come here first!" From list-managers-owner Mon Oct 30 23:22:55 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) id WAA28104 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 30 Oct 1995 22:59:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from nic.iii.net (nic.iii.net [199.232.40.3]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) with SMTP id WAA28091 for ; Mon, 30 Oct 1995 22:59:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from kenmoto1.iii.net (kenmoto1.iii.net [199.232.41.216]) by nic.iii.net (8.6.8/8.6.6) with SMTP id BAA16916; Tue, 31 Oct 1995 01:59:41 -0500 Date: Tue, 31 Oct 1995 01:59:41 -0500 Message-Id: <199510310659.BAA16916@nic.iii.net> X-Sender: bourbeau@mail.iii.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: PMDAtropos@aol.com From: bourbeau@kenmoto1.iii.net (Ken Bourbeau) Subject: Re: Direct e-mail spam Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM X-Mailer: Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I maintain an AOL account for emergency reasons (in case my regular slip provider goes down, bankrupt etc) and check it semi-regularly for mail. Last week I found a huge number of spams from spamking and some other bulk mailing service in my AOL mailboxes. I have received no such mail to my address at my regular slip account. Since I subscribe to quite a few mailing lists at my regular address and none at my AOL address, I have to believe that these bulk mailers are getting my AOL addresses from AOL somehow (member profiles?) and not by raiding the various mailing lists I subscribe to. Any ideas? The sudden dramatic increase in spamming to my AOL addresses but not my other addresses is bothersome. Best to ya from the Sticks o New Hampshire, Kenny *********************************************************** Ken Bourbeau Home Page: http://www.iii.net/users/bourbeau/ Maria McKee Mailinglist email: mckeefan-request@nic.iii.net Rod Stewart Digest email: rodfans@kenmoto1.iii.net *********************************************************** From list-managers-owner Tue Oct 31 11:23:00 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) id LAA25737 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 31 Oct 1995 11:09:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from hp2.scri.fsu.edu (hp2.scri.fsu.edu [144.174.128.79]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) with SMTP id LAA25721 for ; Tue, 31 Oct 1995 11:08:58 -0800 (PST) Received: by hp2.scri.fsu.edu id AA00289 (5.67b/IDA-1.4.4 for List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM); Tue, 31 Oct 1995 14:04:37 -0500 From: Ashley Duke Message-Id: <199510311904.AA00289@hp2.scri.fsu.edu> Subject: List Manager selection To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Date: Tue, 31 Oct 95 14:04:36 EST Mailer: Elm [revision: 70.85] Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I hope this isn't particularly annoying, but I was just wondering if anyone could offer some input... I am researching Mailing List Managers for the Florida Information Resource Commission, and my group and I will be presenting a fairly comprehensive outline of a computer system (incld. list software) to the Legislature early next month. Although I've done significant research on the topic (and yes, I've checked out Norm Aleks' extremely helpful FAQ), I was wondering if someone has an independent suggestion for the type of distribution system and software that could be used on several platforms (Unix-based) and could distribute mail to 150,000 State workers relatively quickly. We will probably use a redistribution system of sorts, but we haven't yet decided on the software... Any input would be appreciated, really. Thanks, Ashley Duke ashley@scri.fsu.edu Systems Development Supercomputer Computations Research Institute From list-managers-owner Tue Oct 31 11:54:23 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) id LAA25589 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 31 Oct 1995 11:01:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from ornette.uchicago.edu (ornette.uchicago.edu [128.135.99.101]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) with SMTP id LAA25581 for ; Tue, 31 Oct 1995 11:01:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost.uchicago.edu [127.0.0.1]) by ornette.uchicago.edu (8.6.10/8.6.11) with ESMTP id NAA10969 for ; Tue, 31 Oct 1995 13:01:20 -0600 Message-Id: <199510311901.NAA10969@ornette.uchicago.edu> X-Mailer: exmh version 1.6.4 10/10/95 Reply-To: ckk@uchicago.edu From: ckk@uchicago.edu To: List-Managers@greatcircle.com Subject: philosophy: linked vs. autonomous list servers In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 30 Oct 1995 23:23:05 PST." <199510310723.XAA29879@miles.greatcircle.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Tue, 31 Oct 1995 13:01:19 -0600 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Someone mentioned the "SPAM-L" on a LISTSERV and others asked "which LISTSERV". But the philosophy of the LISTSERV system is that ALL list servers are linked together, they share information on what lists are available. Majordomo, on the other hand, and SmartList, do not share this linking philosophy. They implement an autonomous list server host. Many list managers require privacy in varying degrees, and would actively RESIST having their list info shared among all list servers in the world. So there are these two philosophies about mailing lists, as reflected in these various software implementations. Obviously there are some lists for which the world-wide linkage and ubiquitous availability are appropriate, but on the other hand there are lists for which it would be inappropriate to even advertise their address anywhere outside the small circle of relevant people. Now that the commercial spammers are attacking our mailing lists head on, I wonder if there will have to be modifications made to the underlying philosophies, in order to resist the spamming scum? Just a thought, Chris Koenigsberg ckk@uchicago.edu From list-managers-owner Tue Oct 31 13:53:47 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) id NAA29703 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 31 Oct 1995 13:25:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from swan.automata.com (swan.automata.com [198.242.220.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) with SMTP id NAA29696 for ; Tue, 31 Oct 1995 13:25:15 -0800 (PST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by swan.automata.com (8.6.11/8.6.11) id QAA11205 for ; Tue, 31 Oct 1995 16:25:15 -0500 Received: from automata.automata.com(192.9.200.30) by swan.automata.com via smap (V1.3) id sma011199; Tue Oct 31 16:24:52 1995 Received: by automata (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA21288; Tue, 31 Oct 95 16:24:50 EST Date: Tue, 31 Oct 1995 16:24:50 -0500 (EST) From: George Pearson To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: mailing list service provider wanted Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk The site at which I run my mailing list has decided that it is against company policy to run a non-business-related mailing list off of their system. Therefore, I am seeking an inexpensive place to which to relocate my list. It is a non-commercial list (discussing UK and European canals and waterways) with about 100 "regular" subscribers and 10 digest subscribers. The messages for the month of October total to about 1.2 MB, so that about 110 x 1.2 MB = 132 MB were transferred during the month. I have been running majordomo 1.93 and would prefer to continue to do so. (I also need to move my 3.5 MB web site and 2.4 MB ftp site, but not necessarily to the same place.) Since I'm don't make any money out of this, I need an inexpensive site. I'd like some reasonable net connectivity (i.e. better than a modem.) And there's the need to cross link to a newsgroup that's about to be formed. In case anyone wonders, I am located in Northern Virginia, just outside of Washington, DC, in area code 703. Anyone have any good suggestions? - george From list-managers-owner Tue Oct 31 19:23:08 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) id SAA15718 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 31 Oct 1995 18:59:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from emout04.mail.aol.com (emout04.mail.aol.com [198.81.10.12]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) with SMTP id SAA15711 for ; Tue, 31 Oct 1995 18:59:03 -0800 (PST) From: PMDAtropos@aol.com Received: by emout04.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id VAA17417 for List-Managers@greatcircle.com; Tue, 31 Oct 1995 21:59:03 -0500 Date: Tue, 31 Oct 1995 21:59:03 -0500 Message-ID: <951031215901_94712365@emout04.mail.aol.com> To: List-Managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: philosophy: linked vs. autonomous list servers Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk In a message dated 95-10-31 15:09:52 EST, ckk@uchicago.edu writes: >Obviously there are some lists for which the world-wide linkage and >ubiquitous availability are appropriate, but on the other hand there are >lists for which it would be inappropriate to even advertise their address >anywhere outside the small circle of relevant people. Actually, by manipulating the CONFIDENTIAL and SERVICE header lines, LISTSERV lists can be made to be known to only a select few people or sites. More information is available in the L-Soft LISTSERV List Owner's Manual, available from L-Soft at http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/index.html If you're running a LISTSERV list, one way to pretty much seal out spammers is to use the SUBSCRIPTION=By Owner option along with SEND=Private. You'll need to approve every person who joins the list, but that barrier should be effective against virtually all mailspammers. -- __ David B. O'Donnell (atropos@aol.net, PMDAtropos@aol.com) \/ AOL Internet Feedback/Response/Information Team Manager Tel. +1 703/448-8700 x3725 - FAX +1 703/883-1514 Belief-L, GLB-News -Press -Discuss, SoftRevu List Owner/Editor http://www.cais.com/atropos/ ---- "The spam stops here."