From list-managers-owner Thu Jan 4 11:25:05 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id KAA13450 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 4 Jan 1996 10:59:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from SYSWRK.UCIS.Dal.Ca ([129.173.2.108]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-951221-1) with ESMTP id KAA13445 for ; Thu, 4 Jan 1996 10:59:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from 129.173.1.100 by SYSWRK.UCIS.DAL.CA (PMDF V4.3-13 #6307) id <01HZM760GUQO004KHK@SYSWRK.UCIS.DAL.CA>; Thu, 04 Jan 1996 14:52:30 -0400 Received: from biome.bio.dfo.ca ("port 4830"@biome.BIO.dfo.ca) by AC.DAL.CA (PMDF V4.3-13 #6307) id <01HZM73UET0000NQOA@AC.DAL.CA>; Thu, 04 Jan 1996 14:50:55 -0400 Received: by biome.bio.dfo.ca (931110.SGI/931108.SGI.ANONFTP) for @ac.dal.ca:List-managers@GreatCircle.COM id AA16945; Thu, 4 Jan 96 14:48:51 -0400 Date: Thu, 04 Jan 1996 14:48:51 -0400 (AST) From: bill@biome.bio.dfo.ca (Bill Silvert) Subject: E-mail to HTML To: List-managers@GreatCircle.COM Message-id: <9601041848.AA16945@biome.bio.dfo.ca> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I was away then this string appeared, but I use MHonArc at this site and it does a fine job of turning a mail spool file into HTML. I don't know if my copy is current, but this and lots of other really great goodies by Earl Hood are at http://www.oac.uci.edu/indiv/ehood/ If MHonArc doesn't do exactly what you want, perhaps you will find something else here that does. Bill Silvert >Date: Sun, 24 Dec 1995 13:54:30 -0500 >From: selene@niagara.com (Rowan Shirkie) >Subject: E-mail to HTML > >Does anyone have any experience with the E-mail to HTML software that they >could share? > >I want to create an HTML archive of my digests, and point WWW >browser-surfers and new mailing list subscribers to it. I would use the WWW >site to publish the mailing list "info" file and list policies as well, >making it a sort of self-serve request processor. > >That way, I figure people with only a casual interest can come and go >without churning subscriptions. New subscribers can avoid revisiting topics >that have outlived their interest lifespan on the list itself. > >I have seen Hypermail. Does any one have experience with it? Or any other >converter? -- Bill Silvert, Habitat Ecology Section, Habitat Science Division Bedford Institute of Oceanography, P. O. Box 1006 Dartmouth, Nova Scotia, CANADA B2Y 4A2 HED runs a WWW server at URL=http://hed.bio.dfo.ca From list-managers-owner Thu Jan 4 20:37:26 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id UAA25526 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 4 Jan 1996 20:28:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from nic.iii.net (nic.iii.net [199.232.40.3]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id UAA25501 for ; Thu, 4 Jan 1996 20:28:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from kenmoto1.iii.net (kenmoto1.iii.net [199.232.41.216]) by nic.iii.net (8.6.8/8.6.6) with SMTP id XAA09462; Thu, 4 Jan 1996 23:27:59 -0500 Date: Thu, 4 Jan 1996 23:27:59 -0500 Message-Id: <199601050427.XAA09462@nic.iii.net> X-Sender: bourbeau@mail.iii.net (Unverified) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM From: bourbeau@kenmoto1.iii.net (Ken Bourbeau) Subject: Mailto: Rod Stewart ? Cc: flash@rochgte.fidonet.org (Elaine Naiman) X-Mailer: Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Certainly not very technical, certainly not very original, but I hope effective..... Ever since putting the "mailto:" on the web pages for my lists, I've received clueless email. Now I've removed the mailto from my main pages and replaced them with a link to a page that explains the function of a mailing list, the difference between administrative addresses and list addresses, and "NO, you are NOT writing to Rod Stewart by clicking here!!" ;-) At the bottom of the tutorial, are "mailto:" commands. Hope it works. Best to ya from the Sticks o New Hampshire, Kenny *********************************************************** Ken Bourbeau Home Page: http://www.iii.net/users/bourbeau/ Maria McKee Mailinglist email: mckeefan-request@nic.iii.net Rod Stewart Digest email: rodfans@kenmoto1.iii.net *********************************************************** From list-managers-owner Thu Jan 4 21:55:55 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id VAA27118 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 4 Jan 1996 21:40:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from access2.digex.net (access2.digex.net [205.197.245.193]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id VAA27113 for ; Thu, 4 Jan 1996 21:40:45 -0800 (PST) Received: (from asgilman@localhost) by access2.digex.net (8.6.12/8.6.12) id AAA27044 ; for ; Fri, 5 Jan 1996 00:39:59 -0500 From: Al Gilman Message-Id: <199601050539.AAA27044@access2.digex.net> Subject: Re: Mailto: Rod Stewart ? To: bourbeau@kenmoto1.iii.net (Ken Bourbeau) Date: Fri, 5 Jan 1996 00:39:58 -0500 (EST) Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM, flash@rochgte.fidonet.org In-Reply-To: <199601050427.XAA09462@nic.iii.net> from "Ken Bourbeau" at Jan 4, 96 11:27:59 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk From: bourbeau@kenmoto1.iii.net (Ken Bourbeau) Ever since putting the "mailto:" on the web pages for my lists, I've received clueless email. Now I've removed the mailto from my main pages and replaced them with a link to a page that explains the function of a mailing list, the difference between administrative addresses and list addresses, and "NO, you are NOT writing to Rod Stewart by clicking here!!" ;-) At the bottom of the tutorial, are "mailto:" commands. Hope it works. Good. I suspect you may need to instruct readers to make a bookmark pointing to this sign-on/sign-off page before offering them a sign-on mailto:, to make this approach mostly successful. c.f. this .sig that I have composed but failed to get implemented on Lynx-dev: >>-- This message is coming to you from the Lynx-dev discussion list. --<< http://www.cc.ukans.edu/about_lynx/lynx-dev/about_lynx-dev.html --for info mailto:listproc@listproc.cc.ukans.edu --for list administration >>-- UNSUB LYNX-DEV gets you off the list, HELP gets instructions. --<< The page you get to by the "for info" reference contains fully spelled commands but not clickable subscribe/unsubscribe actions. From list-managers-owner Sat Jan 6 15:04:58 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id OAA27777 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 6 Jan 1996 14:36:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.104.183.130] ([192.104.183.130]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-951221-1) with ESMTP id OAA03527 for ; Fri, 5 Jan 1996 14:13:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from calunet.com (192.104.183.129) by [192.104.183.130] with SMTP (Apple Internet Mail Server 1.0); Fri, 5 Jan 1996 16:10:47 -0600 Date: Fri, 5 Jan 96 16:10:19 -0500 From: MacMikeal@calunet.com (MacMikeal) Organization: CaluNET Online, Inc. Subject: Help!! To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Message-ID: <3104097.ensmtp@calunet.com> X-Mailer: ExpressNet/SMTP v1.1.4 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I maintain a E-Mail mailing list titled The East Tennessee List. It currently has around 100 subscribers. Currently I have had to split the list into 4 address book entries on my internet provider. Each message has to be sent to me and then I have to make 4 copies of each and manually send them back out. I wrote to the man I heard of that wrote a program called List Processor. He suggested to write you and see if any one site would become host to my list? I need to be able to have a "closed" list that is any subscribing to the list be done by me. The subscriber would be able to unsubscribe himself. Digest operation would need to be available. This is a list that is made available to Preachers who preach for the Conservative branch of the churches of Christ. If you can help please E-mail me. Mike Hughes 204 Prairie Street Lowell, IN 46356 (219)696-2436 MacMikeal@calunet.com Also subscribe me to your list. - via BulkRate 2.1 -- -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Sent via CaluNET Online, Inc. The premier online information service for the calumet region Voice Customer Service: 219.937.5757 Call Customer Service to request an account and client software Internet Email: admin@calunet.com -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- From list-managers-owner Sat Jan 6 15:05:06 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id OAA27733 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 6 Jan 1996 14:35:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from sgi.sgi.com (SGI.COM [192.48.153.1]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id RAA23426 for ; Thu, 4 Jan 1996 17:32:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from lunch.engr.sgi.com by sgi.sgi.com via ESMTP (950405.SGI.8.6.12/910110.SGI) for <@sgi.sgi.com:list-managers@greatcircle.com> id RAA23498; Thu, 4 Jan 1996 17:31:57 -0800 Received: by lunch.engr.sgi.com (950511.SGI.8.6.12.PATCH526/940406.SGI.AUTO) for list-managers@greatcircle.com id RAA11478; Thu, 4 Jan 1996 17:31:56 -0800 From: pdc@lunch.engr.sgi.com (Paul Close) Message-Id: <199601050131.RAA11478@lunch.engr.sgi.com> Subject: Re: E-mail to HTML To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Date: Thu, 4 Jan 1996 17:31:54 -0800 (PST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL0a8s] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >Date: Sun, 24 Dec 1995 13:54:30 -0500 >From: selene@niagara.com (Rowan Shirkie) >Subject: E-mail to HTML > >Does anyone have any experience with the E-mail to HTML software that they >could share? > >I want to create an HTML archive of my digests, and point WWW >browser-surfers and new mailing list subscribers to it. I would use the WWW >site to publish the mailing list "info" file and list policies as well, >making it a sort of self-serve request processor. > >That way, I figure people with only a casual interest can come and go >without churning subscriptions. New subscribers can avoid revisiting topics >that have outlived their interest lifespan on the list itself. > >I have seen Hypermail. Does any one have experience with it? Or any other >converter? I have a home-grown digest-to-html program that uses perl 5.0. I have an older one that uses perl 4.0, but it requires a more ridgid digest format (my majordomo digest program, pretty well). The reason I wrote my own was that the others, like Hypermail, only worked on mail files, not digests. And all my archives are digests, so I was stuck. Hypermail is particularly bad for that because it only parses mailbox "From " style lines, not Arpa-style "From: " lines (one has a colon, one doesn't; more importantly, digests only have the latter). The other reason was I like perl and html :-) Note that my script needs a little tweaking for the "end of digest" message (look for "End of Volume"), and the digest name / date / volume number infor from the title. Look around line 137 for that. To see a real-life example of the output, check out: http://reality.sgi.com/employees/pdc/bass/v02q4/topics.html http://reality.sgi.com/employees/pdc/bass/v02q4/contents.html Note that subjects are linked together, so from any subject you can jump to the next or previous subject. #! /bin/sh # This is a shell archive. Remove anything before this line, then feed it # into a shell via "sh file" or similar. To overwrite existing files, # type "sh file -c". # The tool that generated this appeared in the comp.sources.unix newsgroup; # send mail to comp-sources-unix@uunet.uu.net if you want that tool. # If this archive is complete, you will see the following message at the end: # "End of shell archive." # Contents: digest_to_html.perl # Wrapped by pdc@lunch.engr.sgi.com on Thu Jan 4 17:24:47 1996 PATH=/bin:/usr/bin:/usr/ucb ; export PATH if test -f 'digest_to_html.perl' -a "${1}" != "-c" ; then echo shar: Will not clobber existing file \"'digest_to_html.perl'\" else echo shar: Extracting \"'digest_to_html.perl'\" \(7960 characters\) sed "s/^X//" >'digest_to_html.perl' <<'END_OF_FILE' X#!/usr/bin/perl5 -w X X$header_sep = "\n+Topics:[^\000]*?\n--------------------*\n+"; X$message_sep = "\n+--------------------*\n+(?=From:|Subject:|Date:)"; X Xundef %subjcount; # avoid "used only once" warnings X X$dir = "."; X Xwhile ($ARGV[0] =~ m/^(-.*)/ && shift) { X if ($1 eq "-d") { X $dir = shift; X } else { X die "usage $0 [-d html_dir] file [file...]\n"; X } X} X Xundef($/); X$* = 1; X Xopen(CONTENTS, ">$dir/contents.html") || X die "Can't open $dir/contents.html: $!\n"; Xopen(TOPICS, ">$dir/topics.html") || X die "Can't open $dir/topics.html: $!\n"; X X# X# Pass 1 -- Read each file and get a list of subjects. This is only so X# we can be nice and offer to jump to the next article with X# the same subject. X# X Xprint "Pass 1...\n"; X Xforeach $file (@ARGV) { X next if $file =~ /\.html$/; X open(DIGEST, "<$file") || warn "Can't open $file: $!\n",next; X print "$file\n"; X $_ = ; # read the whole file X close(DIGEST); X X push(@okayfiles, $file); X $file =~ s!.*/!!; X X # split off digest header X if (!/$header_sep/o) { X print "$file: header split didn't work: \$header_sep probably not right for this digest!\n"; X $body = $_; X } X else { X $body = $'; X } X if (! $body =~ /$message_sep/o) { X print "$file: message split didn't work: \$message_sep probably not right for this digest!\n"; X } X # just /$message_sep/o should work, but doesn't, perl5.001n X eval "\@msgs = split(/$message_sep/, \$body)"; # split body into messages X X $subjno = 0; X X foreach $msg (@msgs){ X $subjno++; X $subj = ""; X ($msg =~ /^Subject:\s+(.*)/m) && ($subj=$1); X X $subj =~ s/&/&/g; # html escape seqs X $subj =~ s//>/g; X $subj =~ s/"/"/g; X X $subj =~ s/\s+$//; X X # massage Subject for topics X X 1 while ($subj =~ s/^Re(2|\[\d+\])?[: ]\s*//i); # trim all Re:'s X if ($subj !~ /^\s*$/ && X $subj !~ /\w+ Digest, Volume \d+,/i && X $subj !~ /\w+ Digest V\d+ #\d+/i) X { X # X # Make a key that's all lower case, and all alpha-numeric to X # reduce duplicate topics that differ only by those. This X # also results in a list of topics sorted case-independent. X # X ($key = $subj) =~ tr/A-Z/a-z/; X $key =~ s/&(amp|lt|gt|quot);//g; X $key =~ s/\W+//g; X $subjrefs{$key} .= "$file.html#$subjno\001"; X if (!defined($realsubj{$key})) { X $realsubj{$key} = $subj; X } X } X } X} X Xprint "Pass 2...\n"; X X# X# Pass 2 -- Read each file AGAIN (hey, that's what file system caches are X# for, right?) and write out an HTML version while writing the X# by-date and by-subject files as we go. X# X# The files could be stored as they were read in, but that X# increases memory usage.... This is left as an exercise X# to the reader :-) X# X Xforeach $file (@okayfiles) { X open(DIGEST, "<$file") || warn "Can't open $file: $!\n",next; X $_ = ; # read the whole file X close(DIGEST); X X $file =~ s!.*/!!; X open(HTML,">$dir/$file.html") || X warn "Can't open $dir/$file.html: $!\n",next; X print "$dir/$file.html\n"; X X $subjno = 0; X s/&/&/g; # html escape seqs X s//>/g; X s/"/"/g; X X /$header_sep/o; # split off digest header X $hdr = "$`$&"; X $body = $'; X $body =~ s/\n+----*\s*End of Volume \d+\s*-----*[\n\s]+\Z//i; X @hdrs = split(/\n\n+/, $hdr); # split hdr by paragraphs X # just /$message_sep/o should work, but doesn't, perl5.001n X eval "\@msgs = split(/$message_sep/, \$body)"; # split body into messages X X shift(@hdrs); # skip mail header X $first = shift(@hdrs); # grab first line X #pop(@hdrs); # ... and topics X #pop(@hdrs); # ... and delimiter X do { $tmp=pop(@hdrs); } until $tmp =~ /Topics/; X X ($title,$volume,$date) = $first =~ /(.*Digest),\s+((?:Volume|Issue).*?),\s+(.*)/; X if ($title eq "" || $volume eq "" || $date eq "") { X print "$file: title wasn't parsed right: \$title = $title, \$volume = $volume, \$date = $date\n"; X } X X print HTML "$title, $volume\n"; X print HTML "

$title

\n

$date
$volume

\n"; X print HTML "
",join("\n\n",@hdrs),"
\n
\n
Topics:
\n"; X X if (!$contents_title) { X $contents_title = "$title Archives"; X print CONTENTS "$contents_title by Digest Date\n"; X print CONTENTS "

$contents_title by Digest Date

\n"; X } X if (!$first_date) { X $first_date = $date; X } X $last_date = $date; X X print CONTENTS qq!

$title, $volume
!, X "$date

\n"; X print CONTENTS "
Contents:
\n"; X X foreach $msg (@msgs) { X #print ">>>$msg<<<\n"; #debug X $subjno++; X $msg_count++; X $subj = ""; X $from = ""; X ($msg =~ /^Subject:\s+(.*)/m) && ($subj=$1); X $subj =~ s/\s+$//; X X # massage From X X if ($msg =~ /^From: (.*)/im) { X $_ = $1; X if (/(.*)<.*>/) { X $from = $1; X } X elsif (/\((.*)\)/) { X $from = $1; X } X else { X $from = $_; X } X $from =~ s/^\s+//; X $from =~ s/\s+$//; X $from =~ s/^"(.*)"$/$1/; X $expr = $from; X $expr =~ s/([\[\]\(\)\*\+\?\.])/\\$1/g; X $msg =~ s/^From:\s+(.*)($expr)(.*)/From: $1$2<\/em>$3/im; X } X X # massage message body X X $msg =~ s/^Subject:\s+(.*)/Subject: $1<\/STRONG>/im; X# $msg =~ s/\n/
\n/g; X $msg =~ s/^(>.*)/$1<\/EM>/gm; X $msg = qq!
\n$msg\n
\n!; X X if ($from ne "" && $subj ne "") { X print HTML qq!$subj
\n!; X print CONTENTS qq!$subj!, X ", $from
\n"; X } X X # massage Subject for topics X X 1 while ($subj =~ s/^Re(2|\[\d+\])?[: ]\s*//i); # trim all Re:'s X if ($subj !~ /^\s*$/ && X $subj !~ /\w+ Digest, Volume \d+,/i && X $subj !~ /\w+ Digest V\d+ #\d+/i) X { X # Make a key just like in pass 1. X ($key = $subj) =~ tr/A-Z/a-z/; X $key =~ s/&(amp|lt|gt|quot);//g; X $key =~ s/\W+//g; X #if (!defined($subjlist{$key})) {$subjlist{$key} = ""} X $subjlist{$key} .= "$file.html#$subjno\002$from\002$date\001"; X @subjref = split("\001", $subjrefs{$key}); X $idx = $subjcount{$key}++; X if ($#subjref >= 0 && $subjref[$idx] ne "$file.html#$subjno") { X print "$key missed subj sequence!\n"; X print "\$#subjref = $#subjref, \$idx = $idx, \$subjref[$idx] = $subjref[$idx]\n"; X print "expected $file.html#$subjno\n"; X } X if ($#subjref <= 0) { X # nothing X } elsif ($idx > $#subjref) { X print "error! \$idx ($idx) > \$#subjref ($#subjref), $key\n"; X } elsif ($idx == 0) { X $msg .= "\n

[no prev subject] " . X "[next subject]" . X "
\n"; X } elsif ($idx == $#subjref) { X $msg .= "\n

" . X "[prev subject] " . X "[no next subject]
\n"; X } else { X $msg .= "\n

" . X "[prev subject] " . X "[next subject]" . X "
\n"; X } X } X } X X print CONTENTS "
\n"; X X print HTML "
\n",join("
\n",@msgs),"\n"; X X close HTML; X} X Xclose(CONTENTS); X Xprint TOPICS "$contents_title by Subject\n"; Xprint TOPICS "

$contents_title by Subject

\n"; Xprint TOPICS "Starting: $first_date
\n"; Xprint TOPICS "Ending: $last_date
\n"; Xprint TOPICS "Messages: $msg_count
\n"; Xprint TOPICS "
    \n"; X Xforeach $key (sort keys %subjlist) { X # X # for each subject, record each file it was found in X # X @msgs = split("\001", $subjlist{$key}); X X if ($realsubj{$key} eq "") { X print "huh? lost subject for key \"$key\"!\n"; X } X print TOPICS "
  • $realsubj{$key}\n
      \n"; X foreach $msg (@msgs) { X ($url,$from,$date) = split("\002", $msg, 3); X print TOPICS qq!
    • $from, $date\n!; X } X print TOPICS "
    \n\n"; X} X Xprint TOPICS "
\n"; X Xclose(TOPICS); END_OF_FILE if test 7960 -ne `wc -c <'digest_to_html.perl'`; then echo shar: \"'digest_to_html.perl'\" unpacked with wrong size! fi chmod +x 'digest_to_html.perl' # end of 'digest_to_html.perl' fi echo shar: End of shell archive. exit 0 -- Paul Close pdc@sgi.com http://reality.sgi.com/employees/pdc/ No fate but what we make From list-managers-owner Sat Jan 6 16:14:37 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id QAA29576 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 6 Jan 1996 16:14:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from village.ios.com (village.ios.com [198.4.75.49]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id QAA29571 for ; Sat, 6 Jan 1996 16:14:12 -0800 (PST) Received: (from gsp@localhost) by village.ios.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id TAA17529; Sat, 6 Jan 1996 19:04:44 -0500 Date: Sat, 6 Jan 1996 19:04:40 -0500 (EST) From: Daniel Pfarrer To: MacMikeal cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Help!! In-Reply-To: <3104097.ensmtp@calunet.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk You can get a mailing list host for a small fee from the PoBox company. They use the majordomo program. URL: http://www.pobox.com/p2/other.html On Fri, 5 Jan 1996, MacMikeal wrote: > I maintain a E-Mail mailing list titled The East Tennessee List. It currently > has around 100 subscribers. Currently I have had to split the list into 4 > address book entries on my internet provider. Each message has to be sent to > me and then I have to make 4 copies of each and manually send them back out. > I wrote to the man I heard of that wrote a program called List Processor. He > suggested to write you and see if any one site would become host to my list? I > need to be able to have a "closed" list that is any subscribing to the list be > done by me. The subscriber would be able to unsubscribe himself. Digest > operation would need to be available. > This is a list that is made available to Preachers who preach for the > Conservative branch of the churches of Christ. > If you can help please E-mail me. > > Mike Hughes > 204 Prairie Street > Lowell, IN 46356 > (219)696-2436 > MacMikeal@calunet.com > > > Also subscribe me to your list. > > - via BulkRate 2.1 > > > -- > > -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- > Sent via CaluNET Online, Inc. > The premier online information service for the calumet region > Voice Customer Service: 219.937.5757 > Call Customer Service to request an account and client software > Internet Email: admin@calunet.com > -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- > > $**************************************************************************$ * Daniel Pfarrer (DP108) SBA: daniel.pfarrer@sbaonline.gov * * CEO & System Administrator CompuServe: 71324.212@compuserve.com * * of GSP Services, Inc. Sys Admin: admin@gsp.com * * Located in Washington, DC, USA Business: dpfarrer@gsp.com * * For more info, e-mail info@gsp.com gsp@village.ios.com * * "Balance the Budget!" WWW: http://village.ios.com/~gsp/ * $**************************************************************************$ From list-managers-owner Sun Jan 7 12:14:39 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id MAA15323 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 7 Jan 1996 12:09:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from miso.wwa.com (miso.wwa.com [198.49.174.33]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id MAA15318 for ; Sun, 7 Jan 1996 12:09:08 -0800 (PST) Received: by miso.wwa.com (Smail3.1.29.1 #2) id m0tZ1O0-000Y1eC; Sun, 7 Jan 96 14:08 CST Message-Id: From: dattier@wwa.com (David W. Tamkin) Subject: How was "-request" coined? To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Date: Sun, 7 Jan 1996 14:08:12 -0600 (CST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk The discussion came up in November or December about people who don't find out what the "-request" suffix really means and assume that it's where one sends requests ... not in the correct sense of requests about the list but under the pre-jumped conclusion that the address is for requests about the topic. Non-members write there with questions that they should (join the list for and then) ask on the list, thinking they've reached some sort of question-and-answer service. When I ran the Toyota Corolla List, people used to write in out of the blue asking for parts and manuals (and only a few of them made any reference to willingness to pay for the items, much less the shipping) or for free repair or purchase advice. I still run the Party of Five List, and people write to its -request address asking for information about the stars or even photo- graphs, not to mention production and broadcast schedules. So I'm wondering, how was the suffix "-request" coined? How did the conven- tion of calling the two addresses "listname@site" and "listname-request@site" get started? What was the reasoning behind those two particular names, if anyone on this list in 1996 ever knew and still remembers? (Yes, I under- stand why there are two addresses and not just one; anyone who explains that to me did not read my question.) David Tamkin From list-managers-owner Sun Jan 7 14:14:40 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id OAA17197 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 7 Jan 1996 14:02:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from schoneal.com (wildride.schoneal.com [206.81.38.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id OAA17189 for ; Sun, 7 Jan 1996 14:01:35 -0800 (PST) Received: (from meo@localhost) by schoneal.com (8.6.11/8.6.11) id QAA25254; Sun, 7 Jan 1996 16:01:01 -0600 Message-Id: <199601072201.QAA25254@schoneal.com> Subject: Re: How was "-request" coined? To: dattier@wwa.com (David W. Tamkin) Date: Sun, 7 Jan 1996 16:01:01 -0600 (CST) Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: From: meo@schoneal.com (Miles O'Neal) Reply-To: meo@schoneal.com (Miles O'Neal) Organization: Schober O'Neal, Inc / Net Ads X-WWW-URL: http://www.schoneal.com/~meo/ X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk David W. Tamkin said... | |So I'm wondering, how was the suffix "-request" coined? How did the conven- |tion of calling the two addresses "listname@site" and "listname-request@site" |get started? What was the reasoning behind those two particular names, if |anyone on this list in 1996 ever knew and still remembers? (Yes, I under- |stand why there are two addresses and not just one; anyone who explains that |to me did not read my question.) Please add me top the list. Please remove me from the list. Sounds like requests to me... -Miles meo@schoneal.com From list-managers-owner Sun Jan 7 16:19:35 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id PAA18496 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 7 Jan 1996 15:35:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from [198.102.244.42] (pb520.greatcircle.com [198.102.244.42]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id PAA18475; Sun, 7 Jan 1996 15:35:05 -0800 (PST) X-Sender: brent@miles.greatcircle.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 7 Jan 1996 15:35:22 +0100 To: dattier@wwa.com (David W. Tamkin), list-managers@greatcircle.com From: Brent@GreatCircle.COM (Brent Chapman) Subject: Re: How was "-request" coined? Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 2:08 PM 1/7/96, David W. Tamkin wrote: >So I'm wondering, how was the suffix "-request" coined? How did the conven- >tion of calling the two addresses "listname@site" and "listname-request@site" >get started? What was the reasoning behind those two particular names, if >anyone on this list in 1996 ever knew and still remembers? (Yes, I under- >stand why there are two addresses and not just one; anyone who explains that >to me did not read my question.) An interesting question... I did a little digging (the net is a wonderful thing!), and I think I may have found it... First, a key piece of trivia: RISKS, HUMANETS, and SF-LOVERS are some of the oldest mailing lists on the Internet, having been started back before it even WAS the Internet. I.e., when these lists were started, it was still the ARPANET, and people's email addresses were simply hostnames, without a domain part, such as "Brent@UCBARPA"; often, in fact, it was shown as "Brent at UCBARPA". I figured I'd go back through the archives of these very old lists, and see if I could find the first reference to "-request" in each. The very first issue of RISKS-Digest from August 1, 1985 says that administrative requests should be directed to "RISKS-Request@SRI-CSL.ARPA", so the convention was already well-established by that time. I couldn't find an on-line archive of HUMANETS, but I didn't look very hard. I think I hit paydirt with SF-Lovers, though. Below is a message I came up with from the first volume of the SF-Lovers archive (available for anonymous FTP from sflovers.rutgers.edu; the full file reference is ftp://sflovers.rutgers.edu/pub/sf-lovers/Digest/sf-lovers.v1), from 1979. Unless Roger Duffey (the author of the message below, and the manager of the SF-LOVERS mailing list at the time) was copying the practices of some other list, it looks like he invented the -request convention for SF-Lovers. I don't see any indication that he was taking the idea from somebody else, though; the text above makes it sound like he'd just come up with this idea to solve the problem at hand. I find it particularly amusing that "how to manage mailing lists" (i.e., the charter of List-Managers) was apparently already a topic of consideration and debate in 1979... :-) -Brent ----------------------+----------------------------+------------------------ Brent Chapman | Great Circle Associates | 1057 West Dana Street Brent@GreatCircle.COM | http://www.greatcircle.com | Mountain View, CA 94041 ----------------------+----------------------------+------------------------ Internet Tutorials from the Experts! >Date: 30 DEC 1979 0058-EST >From: DUFFEY at MIT-AI (Roger D. Duffey, II) >Subject: I'm in charge! (and with a loooong message too) >To: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI > >Alan and everyone, > > Peace Alan. Either I have sent messages or someone else >has announced about four times now that I am responsible for >maintaining the SF-LOVERS mailing list. My name is Roger >Duffey, and my net address is DUFFEY@MIT-AI. After tonight >you can also send complaints/questions/requests about the >SF-LOVERS mailing list to SF-LOVERS-REQUEST@MIT-AI and they >will automatically be forwarded to me. > Actually, the majority of the people requesting to be >added to SF-LOVERS have been sending mail directly to me, >not to everyone. Otherwise you would all be seeing somewhat >more mail than you are. This list is not only active but is >still growing. It has been my policy when I add someone to >the mailing list to send them something like the following >message. In the event that some of you may not have seen it, >or know its contents, I will repeat it here: > > Subject: Welcome to SF-LOVERS! > > You have now been added to the SF-LOVERS mailing > list. An archive of all past messages sent to the list > is kept in the file AI:DUFFEY;_DATA_ SF. Feel free to > peruse it, but please be very careful not to modify it. > > BTW, I am the maintainer of the mailing list. If > you ever have any problems/questions about the list, > please send me some mail rather than everyone. (eg. > if you sent a message to the list and the COMSAT gave > you a cryptic error, etc.) I will then reply directly > to you as needed with a solution/answer. > > Also if you tell someone about SF-LOVERS please > ask them to send their requests to be added directly > to DUFFEY@MIT-AI. > > Enjoy, > > Roger > > The statement in the last paragraph is the key actually. >People asking to be added to SF-LOVERS are not on SF-LOVERS >and will not have seen this message. When you tell someone >about the list you need to remember to tell them to send >their requests directly to me. > There is a problem however, and that is remembering that >"me" is DUFFEY@MIT-AI (and you better not forget the E either). >To avoid this I have installed a new feedername for mail. The >name is SF-LOVERS-REQUEST and all it does is redirect mail to >me. Therefore: > > If you ever have any problems/questions about the list, > please send mail to SF-LOVERS-REQUEST@MIT-AI, rather than > to everyone. Also if you tell someone about SF-LOVERS, > please ask them to send their requests to be added directly > to SF-LOVERS-REQUEST@MIT-AI (or MIT-MC or MIT-ML or MIT-DM). > >For Alan. > > Enjoy, > Roger From list-managers-owner Sun Jan 7 16:44:39 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id QAA19366 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 7 Jan 1996 16:35:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from hustle.rahul.net (hustle.rahul.net [192.160.13.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id QAA19361 for ; Sun, 7 Jan 1996 16:35:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from LunaCity.UUCP by hustle.rahul.net with UUCP id AA23446 (5.67b8/IDA-1.5 for list-managers@greatcircle.com); Sun, 7 Jan 1996 16:34:13 -0800 Received: by LunaCity.com (1.65/waf) via UUCP; Sun, 07 Jan 96 15:23:38 PST for list-managers@greatcircle.com To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Cc: ala@hustle.rahul.net Subject: Re: How was "-request" coined? From: ala@LunaCity.com (alyson l abramowitz) Message-Id: Date: Sun, 07 Jan 96 15:23:17 PST In-Reply-To: Organization: Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk ala@LunaCity.com (alyson l abramowitz) writes: > Long, long, ago; Far, far away, in the days of the ARPAnet.... > > David asks if anyone remembers how and when the names listname@site > and listname-request@site were created. As an oldster on the list > of an ancient 30something in age, I remember this. > > I believe both terms were created by Roger Duffey. Roger was > an MIT graduate student who tried to keep a science fiction interest > list from overrunning the DEC-10 machine he was using for research. > > I have the printouts I could look up the year in. 1979/80 sounds > about right. I'm not off by more than a year. > > Back in those days, that particular DEC-10 (MIT-AI) and its > sister MIT machines had some interesting mailing software on it > which allowed someone to send to a distribution list name and have > it exploded to all of its members (something few other pieces of > mailing software supported gracefully). > > The list in question threatened to overwhelm MIT-AI. So Roger > bundled up a days worth of messages into a digest. So the > SF-Lover's Digest (and digest lists, in general) were born. > > I believe Roger created the -Request versus the mailing list > convention shortly after he started inventing the Digest. The > original packagings were very primitive and developed over > a (relatively short) period of time to have a complex indexing > system (which only 15 years later we are in a position to take > advantage of now). > > Having a -Request mailbox made it possible to automate much of > the process of physically making a digest once messages were > selected and ordered (tho I don't think Roger actually did > this; others of us did; he was on a funky OS so we couldn't > share software easily). The two streams also allowed for the > potential automation of add/deletes that LISTSERV eventually > provided. > > Although I ran one of the major redistributions of that list, > I never thought to ask Roger why he picked -Request as the > name for administrative requests. He had had a lot of background > in moderating groups. He always contented that he used much of > the same techniques on the digest lists. I don't know. Perhaps > it was just as simple as thinking that people were asking for a > request to be added or removed. > > I find it interesting that people were asking you for parts and > other such questions. When I did my stints as moderator (many > years ago) those kinds of requests never occured. Maybe its > just that the world and the Internet has changed. > > I know one thing I did when I was handling redistribution and > moderating was to educate my list members about how to communicate > and what was acceptable net behavior. Every one of the early > digest lists came with a welcome letter explaining this kind of > stuff (a concept Roger created for the Internet). And when someone > didn't behave appropriately, I would send them a polite message > in my moderator/redistributor role explaining why their behavior > was in violation of net behavior/rules (and sometimes rejecting > a contribution or suggesting revision). > > Well, David, you've got me feeling all nostalgic now. Maybe I'll > get energetic and go reread those old printouts I've lugged from > house to house for years (I still have a copy of the original lists > in TOPS-20 tape format, too!). > > Best, > Alyson > > From list-managers-owner Sun Jan 7 18:29:39 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id SAA20877 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 7 Jan 1996 18:16:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from hustle.rahul.net (hustle.rahul.net [192.160.13.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id SAA20867 for ; Sun, 7 Jan 1996 18:16:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from LunaCity.UUCP by hustle.rahul.net with UUCP id AA29296 (5.67b8/IDA-1.5 for list-managers@greatcircle.com); Sun, 7 Jan 1996 18:15:10 -0800 Received: by LunaCity.com (1.65/waf) via UUCP; Sun, 07 Jan 96 17:54:49 PST for list-managers@greatcircle.com To: Brent@GreatCircle.COM (Brent Chapman) Cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: How was "-request" coined? From: ala@LunaCity.com (alyson l abramowitz) Message-Id: Date: Sun, 07 Jan 96 17:48:36 PST In-Reply-To: Organization: Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk There were many lists before Risks, Human-Nets, and SF-Lovers. Only they were small and many were manually done. SF-Lovers was the first huge mailing list on the Internet (then the ARPAnet). I believe Human-Nets came next. There were a number of other lists that came after that: Telecom-Digest and WorkS, come to mind. I believe Risks came much later on the scene. SFL, Human-Nets, and Telecom-Digest were already in operation by 1981. Best, Alyson PS The comment about being able to find the administrator is why Roger created the -Request box. Why he called it that rather than some other name, I don't know.--ala From list-managers-owner Sun Jan 7 22:14:40 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id WAA25328 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 7 Jan 1996 22:02:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from taz.hyperreal.com (taz.hyperreal.com [204.62.129.130]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id WAA25319; Sun, 7 Jan 1996 22:02:27 -0800 (PST) Received: by taz.hyperreal.com (8.6.12/8.6.5) id WAA25984; Sun, 7 Jan 1996 22:01:37 -0800 Date: Sun, 7 Jan 1996 22:01:36 -0800 (PST) From: Brian Behlendorf To: Brent Chapman cc: "David W. Tamkin" , list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: How was "-request" coined? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Sun, 7 Jan 1996, Brent Chapman wrote: > >Date: 30 DEC 1979 0058-EST > >From: DUFFEY at MIT-AI (Roger D. Duffey, II) > >Subject: I'm in charge! (and with a loooong message too) > >To: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI ... > > Subject: Welcome to SF-LOVERS! > > > > You have now been added to the SF-LOVERS mailing > > list. An archive of all past messages sent to the list > > is kept in the file AI:DUFFEY;_DATA_ SF. Feel free to > > peruse it, but please be very careful not to modify it. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Ha! Brian From list-managers-owner Mon Jan 8 06:59:41 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id GAA06304 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 8 Jan 1996 06:51:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from miso.wwa.com (miso.wwa.com [198.49.174.33]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id GAA06299 for ; Mon, 8 Jan 1996 06:51:53 -0800 (PST) Received: by miso.wwa.com (Smail3.1.29.1 #2) id m0tZIub-000Y4YC; Mon, 8 Jan 96 08:51 CST Message-Id: From: dattier@wwa.com (David W. Tamkin) Subject: Re: How was "-request" coined? To: meo@schoneal.com Date: Mon, 8 Jan 1996 08:51:01 -0600 (CST) Cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com In-Reply-To: <199601072201.QAA25254@schoneal.com> from "Miles O'Neal" at Jan 7, 96 04:01:01 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Thanks to Alyson Abramowitz and Brent Chapman for their glimpses into the origins of the "-request" suffix. But Miles O'Neal gave me this pat (as in what he did to his own back) answer: | Please add me top the list. | Please remove me from the list. | | Sounds like requests to me... Miles, you missed the point. Try reasoning forward (from the viewpoint of someone who isn't already familiar with the suffix "-request" and is trying to come up with a convention) instead of backward (from the perspective of somebody justifying a choice already made). Yes, a case can be made for "-request," but lots of other choices would have been logical at that point as well, and they would not have had the same problems today (they might have had different ones that -request doesn't have). I wanted to know why, out of all the ideas possible, "-request" got chosen. Why not "-changes" or "-membership"? If either of those had become the standard, and someone asked today how they came about, anyone could say what Miles O'Neal did: "add me, remove me -- those sound like changes to me" or "add me, remove me -- those sound like mail about list membership to me." And it still wouldn't answer the question. Then again, if I had used corolla-changes instead of corolla-request, people would write in thinking I would take their cars in trade, replace their parts, or upgrade their options. With the advantange of hindsight from 1996, I am seriously considering changing the aliases for the list I still run to something grossly obvious like listname-submissions and listname-subscriptions. That won't help for replies, since virtually nobody pays attention to whether his or her MUA picked out the right reply address, but it will for original mailings. listname@site and listname-request@site will still have to be active (if only to return autoreplies that this list breaks convention) because people will assume they exist. David W. Tamkin dattier@wwa.com MCI Mail: 426-1818 From list-managers-owner Mon Jan 8 07:29:41 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id HAA07274 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 8 Jan 1996 07:26:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from schoneal.com (wildride.schoneal.com [206.81.38.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id HAA07269 for ; Mon, 8 Jan 1996 07:26:43 -0800 (PST) Received: (from meo@localhost) by schoneal.com (8.6.11/8.6.11) id JAA02741; Mon, 8 Jan 1996 09:27:17 -0600 Message-Id: <199601081527.JAA02741@schoneal.com> Subject: Re: How was "-request" coined? To: dattier@wwa.com (David W. Tamkin) Date: Mon, 8 Jan 1996 09:27:16 -0600 (CST) Cc: meo@schoneal.com, list-managers@greatcircle.com In-Reply-To: from "David W. Tamkin" at Jan 8, 96 08:51:01 am From: meo@schoneal.com (Miles O'Neal) Reply-To: meo@schoneal.com (Miles O'Neal) Organization: Schober O'Neal, Inc / Net Ads X-WWW-URL: http://www.schoneal.com/~meo/ X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk David W. Tamkin said... | |But Miles O'Neal gave me this pat (as in what he did to his own back) answer: Nah. I do occasionally scratch it, tho. || Please add me top the list. || Please remove me from the list. || || Sounds like requests to me... The early net was primarily composed of literate, thoughtful people. Or at least geeks. The -request concept was of, by and for such people. These people usually at least glanced at the instructions, or go the whole rundown from a net-savvy friend. As the net grew, it was made up more and more of people with less and less experience, consideration, intelligence, or whatever (there are plenty of others as well, but this number grew, and so did the percentage). So what was obvious then is counter-intuitive for many netters today. -Miles, you scratch my monitor, I'll pat yours. From list-managers-owner Mon Jan 8 09:06:30 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id IAA09074 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 8 Jan 1996 08:31:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from ncar.UCAR.EDU (ncar.ucar.edu [192.52.106.6]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-951221-1) with ESMTP id IAA09069; Mon, 8 Jan 1996 08:31:28 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199601081630.JAA14872@ncar.ucar.EDU> Received: by ncar.ucar.EDU (NCAR Local/ NCAR Central Post Office 03/11/93) id JAA14872; Mon, 8 Jan 1996 09:30:00 -0700 (MST) Subject: Re: How was "-request" coined? To: ala@LunaCity.com (alyson l abramowitz) Date: Mon, 8 Jan 96 9:29:59 MST Cc: Brent@GreatCircle.COM, list-managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: ; from "alyson l abramowitz" at Jan 7, 96 5:48 pm From: woods@ncar.ucar.edu (Greg Woods) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL11] Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > There were many lists before Risks, Human-Nets, and SF-Lovers. > Only they were small and many were manually done. SF-Lovers was > the first huge mailing list on the Internet (then the ARPAnet). > I believe Human-Nets came next. There were a number of other > lists that came after that: Telecom-Digest and WorkS, come to > mind. I believe Risks came much later on the scene. SFL, > Human-Nets, and Telecom-Digest were already in operation by 1981. I believe that these were also the intial set of fa.* newsgroups, the first mailing lists to be gatewayed into USENET newsgroups ("fa" stood for "From ARPAnet"). Back in ancient times when we actually exchanged news over long distance UUCP links :-) Not so ancient, really. The Internet as we know it really got started in 1987 with the advent of NSFnet, when for the first time sites that were not defense contractors could participate in long-haul IP connections. I actually won a special commendation for rearranging our long distance newsfeeds to go over this new network, initially using UUCP-over-TCP and then switching to NNTP which was brand new then, since when I did that our long distance phone bill dropped by $1500/month (which was more than enough for the managers to take notice). So now you have an idea of how much it cost a backbone site to do news in those days. Back to the subject at hand, when I came onto the net in 1981, these fa.* newsgroups already existed. My mail address I would include in postings to those groups was menlo70!hao!woods@BERKELEY, which is how folks on ARPAnet would have addressed me. For the UUCP groups, net.* at the time, it was ucbvax!menlo70!hao!woods; we always had to give our address relative to a well-known site and assume that anyone wanting to reach us would know how to get there. It turns out that my boss at the time, the sysadmin for the "hao" system, had some contacts at Menlo Park, hence we had a UUCP link to menlo70. That's how the net was connected in those days. As for why "-request" was chosen instead of some other suffix that might now be less confusing: I challenge you to come up with anything that won't be confusing to SOMEONE. The truth is, in those days most of the people on the net were fairly computer literate; the "clueless newbie" syndrome simply didn't exist. Roger Duffey was innovative but not clairvoyant. Most likely, it simply never occurred to him that it really mattered what name he chose; he just needed something to serve the function. I also doubt that he really intended to set a standard when he did that; he was just trying to solve an immediate problem with one particular list. --Greg From list-managers-owner Mon Jan 8 09:55:02 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id JAA10649 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 8 Jan 1996 09:35:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from gateway.fmp.com (gateway.fmp.com [198.3.116.18]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id JAA10630 for ; Mon, 8 Jan 1996 09:35:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from castle.fmp.com (castle.fmp.com [198.3.116.19]) by gateway.fmp.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id LAA14052 for ; Mon, 8 Jan 1996 11:34:38 -0600 Message-Id: <199601081734.LAA14052@gateway.fmp.com> X-Sender: fmouse@gateway.fmp.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.1.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 08 Jan 1996 11:34:34 -0600 To: list-managers@greatcircle.com From: Lindsay Haisley Subject: Re: How was "-request" coined? Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Perhaps the most logical choice would have been "-listrequest", but then history has a way of justifying mistakes.... At 08:51 AM 1/8/96 -0600, you wrote: >Yes, a case can be made for "-request," but lots of other choices would have >been logical at that point as well, and they would not have had the same >problems today (they might have had different ones that -request doesn't >have). (______) Lindsay Haisley (oo) "The bull FMP Computer Services /------\/ stops here!" fmouse@fmp.com / | || Austin, Texas, USA * ||---|| * * * * * * (512) 259-1190 ~~ ~~ http://www.fmp.com From list-managers-owner Mon Jan 8 10:34:35 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id KAA11413 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 8 Jan 1996 10:05:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (mycroft.greatcircle.com [198.102.244.35]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id KAA11408 for ; Mon, 8 Jan 1996 10:05:02 -0800 (PST) Received: by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.10/SMI-4.1/Brent-951213) id KAA06711; Mon, 8 Jan 1996 10:02:18 -0800 Received: from hustle.rahul.net(192.160.13.2) by mycroft via smap (V1.3mjr) id sma006708; Mon Jan 8 10:01:12 1996 Received: from LunaCity.UUCP by hustle.rahul.net with UUCP id AA21796 (5.67b8/IDA-1.5 for list-managers@greatcircle.com); Mon, 8 Jan 1996 10:01:47 -0800 Received: by LunaCity.com (1.65/waf) via UUCP; Mon, 08 Jan 96 09:57:26 PST for list-managers@greatcircle.com To: dattier@wwa.com (David W. Tamkin) Cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: How was "-request" coined? From: ala@LunaCity.com (alyson l abramowitz) Message-Id: <6iceHD3w165w@LunaCity.com> Date: Mon, 08 Jan 96 09:45:52 PST In-Reply-To: Organization: Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk David, I hope you don't go through with the change you are proposing for a number of reasons. First, by not following convention you make it harder for your subscribers. Second, unless you only handle subscriptions (not special requests, archive requests, mailing problems, etc), the names you propose become confusing in a different manner. Tho I'm reluctant to try to read Roger's mind of more than 15 years ago, the -request address always had functions beyond adds/deletes. So maybe that is why he picked the word: what every message had in common was a request. My suspicion is that the list@site convention came from the already in usage requirement of his software. Roger simply set the list@site address to a file. And, just to mop up a few other related comments from others, the archives for SFL were rarely munged despite the fact that it would have been easy to do so (all you needed to do was to edit the file and save it with some modification: MIT-AI had NO file protection). We also had lots of people coming on to the ARPAnet in the early days that didn't have a clue. Some were even fairly computer illiterate (e.g., admins). The numbers were smaller. When they goofed we took them aside and politely read them the riot act. The large lists were some of the most obvious places where they appeared. Remember, ALL the initial large lists were technically not supposed to exist (the net was for DOD/work traffic only). They were ignored by the Powers That Be only if certain rules (like non-commercialism) happened. A remember spending quite a bit of time explaining that to our readers (all behind the scenes). Best, Alyson dattier@wwa.com (David W. Tamkin) writes: > Thanks to Alyson Abramowitz and Brent Chapman for their glimpses into the > origins of the "-request" suffix. > > But Miles O'Neal gave me this pat (as in what he did to his own back) answer: > > | Please add me top the list. > | Please remove me from the list. > | > | Sounds like requests to me... > > Miles, you missed the point. Try reasoning forward (from the viewpoint of > someone who isn't already familiar with the suffix "-request" and is trying > to come up with a convention) instead of backward (from the perspective of > somebody justifying a choice already made). > > Yes, a case can be made for "-request," but lots of other choices would have > been logical at that point as well, and they would not have had the same > problems today (they might have had different ones that -request doesn't > have). I wanted to know why, out of all the ideas possible, "-request" got > chosen. Why not "-changes" or "-membership"? If either of those had become > the standard, and someone asked today how they came about, anyone could say > what Miles O'Neal did: "add me, remove me -- those sound like changes to me" > or "add me, remove me -- those sound like mail about list membership to me." > And it still wouldn't answer the question. > > Then again, if I had used corolla-changes instead of corolla-request, people > would write in thinking I would take their cars in trade, replace their > parts, or upgrade their options. > > With the advantange of hindsight from 1996, I am seriously considering > changing the aliases for the list I still run to something grossly obvious > like listname-submissions and listname-subscriptions. That won't help for > replies, since virtually nobody pays attention to whether his or her MUA > picked out the right reply address, but it will for original mailings. > listname@site and listname-request@site will still have to be active (if only > to return autoreplies that this list breaks convention) because people will > assume they exist. > > David W. Tamkin dattier@wwa.com MCI Mail: 426-1818 > From list-managers-owner Mon Jan 8 13:29:42 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id NAA16104 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 8 Jan 1996 13:03:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from access.netaxs.com (access.netaxs.com [198.69.186.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id IAA08760 for ; Mon, 8 Jan 1996 08:13:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from unix2.netaxs.com (jgreshes@unix2.netaxs.com [198.69.186.4]) by access.netaxs.com (8.6.12/8.6.11) with ESMTP id LAA21084 for ; Mon, 8 Jan 1996 11:13:23 -0500 Received: (jgreshes@localhost) by unix2.netaxs.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id LAA20390; Mon, 8 Jan 1996 11:13:15 -0500 Date: Mon, 8 Jan 1996 11:13:14 -0500 (EST) From: Commercial Suicide cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: How was "-request" coined? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Mon, 8 Jan 1996, David W. Tamkin wrote: > chosen. Why not "-changes" or "-membership"? If either of those had become > the standard, and someone asked today how they came about, anyone could say > what Miles O'Neal did: "add me, remove me -- those sound like changes to me" > or "add me, remove me -- those sound like mail about list membership to me." > And it still wouldn't answer the question. > But -request may be the best word to use. On some lists the -request address does all kinds of things: not just add and subtract people, but also serve files, receive files, give help messages, give faqs, etc. About the only thing that would make as much sense would be -admin instead of -request. > Then again, if I had used corolla-changes instead of corolla-request, people > would write in thinking I would take their cars in trade, replace their > parts, or upgrade their options. > > With the advantange of hindsight from 1996, I am seriously considering > changing the aliases for the list I still run to something grossly obvious > like listname-submissions and listname-subscriptions. That won't help for > replies, since virtually nobody pays attention to whether his or her MUA > picked out the right reply address, but it will for original mailings. > listname@site and listname-request@site will still have to be active (if only > to return autoreplies that this list breaks convention) because people will > assume they exist. I hate to break this to you, but there are incredibly stupid people on the net. I like Harlan Ellision's line: "Give an idiot a computer and you get an idiot with a computer." No matter what you change the aliases to, there will still be enough stupid people to annoy you. There is no limit on the number of stupid people. There the one's that can't figure out how to work birth control, so they actually procreate at a far higher rate than intelligent people. We can spend all the time in world debating whether to use this word or that word, but you are never going to make your lists or aliases idiot proof. Jason From list-managers-owner Wed Jan 10 12:42:35 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id LAA05052 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 10 Jan 1996 11:30:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (mycroft.greatcircle.com [198.102.244.35]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id LAA04815 for ; Wed, 10 Jan 1996 11:29:26 -0800 (PST) Received: by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.10/SMI-4.1/Brent-951213) id FAA23859; Wed, 10 Jan 1996 05:11:24 -0800 Received: from gizmo.lut.ac.uk(158.125.96.46) by mycroft via smap (V1.3mjr) id sma023798; Wed Jan 10 05:07:57 1996 Received: from localhost (martin@localhost) by gizmo.lut.ac.uk (8.7.3/8.6.9) with SMTP id NAA22792; Wed, 10 Jan 1996 13:07:36 GMT Message-Id: <199601101307.NAA22792@gizmo.lut.ac.uk> To: martin@mrrl.lut.ac.uk X-URI: Subject: Possible Hypermail problem and fix Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed ; boundary="===_0_Wed_Jan_10_12:43:15_GMT_1996" Date: Wed, 10 Jan 1996 13:07:31 +0000 From: Martin Hamilton Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk This is a multipart MIME message. --===_0_Wed_Jan_10_12:43:15_GMT_1996 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sorry for the cross-posting, but I guess this will interest anyone who uses Hypermail to archive their mailing lists... A subscriber was complaining that his posts weren't being archived, and on investigation I discovered that Hypermail would get confused and fall over if given a "Message-Id:" header which doesn't have the message ID itself enclosed in '<' and '>' So, I just thought I'd pass the message on. I've attached a simple minded (and unofficial) fix for the problem which seems to work for me - your mileage may vary! Cheerio, Martin --===_0_Wed_Jan_10_12:43:15_GMT_1996 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Description: parse.c.patch - be liberal in what you accept! *** parse.c.FCS Wed Jan 10 08:25:50 1996 --- parse.c Wed Jan 10 08:45:37 1996 *************** *** 630,636 **** char *c; static char msgid[MSGDSTRLEN]; ! c = (char *) strchr(line, '<') + 1; for (i = 0; *c && *c != '>' && *c != '\n' && i < MSGDSTRLEN; c++) { if (*c == '\\') continue; --- 630,645 ---- char *c; static char msgid[MSGDSTRLEN]; ! if ((char *)strchr(line, '<') == NULL) { ! /* bozo alert! ! ** msg-id = "<" addr-spec ">" ! ** try to recover as best we can ! */ ! c = (char *) strchr(line, ':') + 1; /* we know this exists! */ ! while (*c && *c == ' ') c++; /* skip spaces before message ID */ ! } else { ! c = (char *) strchr(line, '<') + 1; ! } for (i = 0; *c && *c != '>' && *c != '\n' && i < MSGDSTRLEN; c++) { if (*c == '\\') continue; *************** *** 637,642 **** --- 646,653 ---- msgid[i++] = *c; } msgid[i] = '\0'; + + if (strlen(msgid) == 0) strcpy(msgid, "BOZO"); return msgid; } --===_0_Wed_Jan_10_12:43:15_GMT_1996-- From list-managers-owner Wed Jan 10 13:56:23 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id NAA08890 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 10 Jan 1996 13:10:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from miso.wwa.com (miso.wwa.com [198.49.174.33]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id NAA08872 for ; Wed, 10 Jan 1996 13:10:42 -0800 (PST) Received: by miso.wwa.com (Smail3.1.29.1 #2) id m0ta7m3-000YOWC; Wed, 10 Jan 96 15:09 CST Message-Id: From: dattier@wwa.com (David W. Tamkin) Subject: Re: How was "-request" coined? To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Date: Wed, 10 Jan 1996 15:09:34 -0600 (CST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Miles O'Neal wrote, O> The early net was primarily composed of literate, thoughtful people. O> Or at least geeks. The -request concept was of, by and for such people. O> These people usually at least glanced at the instructions, or go the O> whole rundown from a net-savvy friend. Precisely; in 1988, when I first learned about mailing lists, I qualified as thoughtful (I won't lay claim to "literate") and I did read the instructions. And "-request" struck me at the time as just as good as anything else ... if not intuitively obvious, still sensible enough after one learned of it and easy enough to get used to. O> So what was obvious then is counter-intuitive for many netters today. And therein lies the problem: people who are relying on intuition instead of taking the trouble to get the full scoop. They do whatever they guess sounds right (or take someone else's authoritatively proclaimed guess as gospel) and forge ahead. The result of this trial-and-error method is that their errors become our trials. Greg Woods wrote, W> As for why "-request" was chosen instead of some other suffix that W> might now be less confusing: I challenge you to come up with anything W> that won't be confusing to SOMEONE. Indeed; as I have said before -- and even illustrated when I said that if I'd used "corolla-changes" instead of "corolla-request" non-members would write to that address asking for option upgrades -- any choice would have had its drawbacks. W> I also doubt that [Roger Duffey] really intended to set a standard when W> he did that; he was just trying to solve an immediate problem with one W> particular list. But the pebble started rolling down the snowy slope, and the rest is history. jgreshes@netaxs.com (who didn't give a surname but I'll use "G>" to cite him) wrote, immediately after quoting my "corolla-changes" scenario, G> No matter what you change the aliases to, there will still be enough G> stupid people to annoy you. ... We can spend all the time in world G> debating whether to use this word or that word, but you are never going to G> make your lists or aliases idiot proof. Right: that is exactly the point I was making Monday. Jason is rephrasing something I already said. Finally, Alyson Abramowitz recommended strongly that I not change my list's aliases to those I was considering. I'd had similar thoughts myself: if I do change them I won't disable the traditional addresses, because doing that would confuse not only the clueless newbie types but also the net.veterans who know about every mailing list except mine. listname-request@site and listname@site would have to continue working if only to return a short list of the addresses to use instead, because the convention is well established. From list-managers-owner Fri Jan 12 09:44:16 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id JAA24155 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 12 Jan 1996 09:37:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from panix3.panix.com (panix3.panix.com [198.7.0.4]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-951221-1) with ESMTP id JAA24150 for ; Fri, 12 Jan 1996 09:37:44 -0800 (PST) Received: (from genie@localhost) by panix3.panix.com (8.7/8.7/PanixU1.3) id MAA00319; Fri, 12 Jan 1996 12:36:48 -0500 (EST) From: Andy Finkenstadt Message-Id: <199601121736.MAA00319@panix3.panix.com> Subject: GEnie Online Service Mail Outage (impact on mailing lists) To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Date: Fri, 12 Jan 1996 12:36:47 -0500 (EST) Cc: isp-admin-list@listserv.aol.com X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Greetings, The entire GEIS and GENIE mail systems linked to the Internet are currently experiencing difficulty in delivering or receiving internet mail. In the next few hours mail will start to be returned as undeliverable (the timeout period is 1 day right now). Please if you can, avoid defensively unsubscribing users whose mail addresses end in "genie.com" or "*.geis.com" over the next few days. I am working actively with GEIS to fix the problem (an over-configured router) and to implement workarounds to the timeout & delivery problems. Thank you, Andy Finkenstadt GEnie Postmaster (among many other hats) -- "But I don't have a life. I have a program." - "The Doctor" Emergency Medical Holographic Program, USS Voyager Andrew Finkenstadt, Manager of Software Development, The Printing House Also a GEnie Sysop From list-managers-owner Sun Jan 14 04:10:48 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id EAA20017 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 14 Jan 1996 04:09:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from oulu.fi (ousrvr.oulu.fi [130.231.240.1]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id EAA20001 for ; Sun, 14 Jan 1996 04:09:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from raita.oulu.fi by oulu.fi (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA11011; Sun, 14 Jan 96 14:08:21 +0200 Received: from haapa.oulu.fi by raita.oulu.fi via ESMTP (950911.SGI.8.6.12.PATCH825/930416.SGI.AUTO) for id OAA20757; Sun, 14 Jan 1996 14:08:09 +0200 Received: (mhotti@localhost) by haapa.oulu.fi (950911.SGI.8.6.12.PATCH825/8.6.9) id OAA23027; Sun, 14 Jan 1996 14:08:09 +0200 Date: Sun, 14 Jan 1996 14:08:07 +0200 (EET) From: Marko Hotti To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: FREE 1 yr. magazine sub spam - again! :-I Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On sunday morning I noticed that our two international mailing lists VOCALIST and FINLANDIA had been attacked. This 'FREE 1 yr. magazine subscription' spam occurred several times last year and I had to include extra checks to the MD resend code so that these spams won't get to the relay. So this actually didn't get to the distribution - luckily! :) I have included the headers of this spam here. I have also sent notes to several roots on the hosts appearing in the headers but I think some of them have no idea of what's going on. Marko Hotti System Administrator of lists.oulu.fi University of Oulu, FINLAND >From jennie@uni.liverpool.ac.ukSun Jan 14 13:49:04 1996 >Received: from franklin.seas.gwu.edu by phoenix.oulu.fi; (5.65/1.1.8.2/29Aug94-8.2MPM) id AA29180; Sun, 14 Jan 1996 03:32:17 +0200 >Received: from [198.70.174.245] (chi-pm2-21.freeppp.com [198.70.174.245]) by franklin.seas.gwu.edu (8.7.1/8.7.1) with SMTP id TAA22800; Sat, 13 Jan 1996 19:25:40 -0500 (EST) >X-Sender: jennie@uni.liverpool.ac.uk (Unverified) >Message-Id: >Mime-Version: 1.0 >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >Reply-To: please.reply.via.fax.or.via.smail@fax.number.or.smail.address.shown.below >Approved: moderator >Date: Sat, 13 Jan 1996 19:31:20 -0500 >To: jennie@uni.liverpool.ac.uk >From: jennie@uni.liverpool.ac.uk, steinling@rentwes.org.uk, chiu@otego.ac.uk, ronnie@jhg.co.uk, ellen@tci.co.uk, samuels@uni.london.ac.uk, chen@birmingham.org.uk, chi@manchester.co.uk, wind@rfg1.co.uk, susans@uni.rhodes.ac.uk, gregor@southampt.n.org.uk, ellen@plymouth.ac.uk, gfos@fresno.co.uk, trens@uni.london.ac.uk, jim@uni.london.ac.uk, fharile@plymouth.org.uk, relson@childs.co.uk, nels@hall.co.uk, sarap@ruv4.co.uk, gspelling@earthlite.co.uk (Association of International Students, Executive Board of Directors, UK Chapter) Subject: ===>> FREE 1 yr. Magazine Sub sent worldwide- 295+ Popular USA Titles -----> NOTE: Please first read my note which appears below the "Request for more info Form." Then, to get more info, just fill out the "Request for More Info" form completely and *FAX* or *SMAIL* it back to the company. You will get a quick reply via email within 1 business day of receipt of the info request form below. From list-managers-owner Sun Jan 14 04:40:46 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id EAA22509 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 14 Jan 1996 04:34:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from sacusr.mp.usbr.gov ([140.214.12.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id EAA22504 for ; Sun, 14 Jan 1996 04:34:41 -0800 (PST) Received: by sacto.mp.usbr.gov (MX V4.2 VAX) id 201; Sun, 14 Jan 1996 04:32:05 PST Date: Sun, 14 Jan 1996 04:32:02 PST From: "Henry W. Miller" To: mhotti@raita.oulu.fi CC: list-managers@greatcircle.com, henrym@sacto.mp.usbr.gov Message-ID: <0099C5C1.B6F79338.201@sacto.mp.usbr.gov> Subject: RE: FREE 1 yr. magazine sub spam - again! :-I Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > From: MX%"mhotti@raita.oulu.fi" 14-JAN-1996 04:14:31.75 > Subj: FREE 1 yr. magazine sub spam - again! :-I > > On sunday morning I noticed that our two international mailing lists > VOCALIST and FINLANDIA had been attacked. This 'FREE 1 yr. magazine > subscription' spam occurred several times last year and I had to include > extra checks to the MD resend code so that these spams won't get to the > relay. So this actually didn't get to the distribution - luckily! :) > > I have included the headers of this spam here. I have also sent notes to > several roots on the hosts appearing in the headers but I think some of > them have no idea of what's going on. > > Marko Hotti > System Administrator of lists.oulu.fi > University of Oulu, FINLAND > > >From jennie@uni.liverpool.ac.ukSun Jan 14 13:49:04 1996 A fake return address as usual. It also hit, besides this group, COM-PRIV, WAIS-TALK, INFO-VAX & TCP-IP, the latter of which I manage. Fortunately, I saw it hit and killed it before too many copies got out. The last time this spam occured, I FAXed the son-of-a-biscuit-eater and warned him that I would bring charges against him if he ever hit my system again. I would have liked to have thought that my warning scared him off, but NOOOO!!! OK, tomorrow I email the administrators at GWU, FREEPPP (this is not the first time they've been used as a portal) and SPRINTLINK, who is the ISP for FREEPPP. Monday, I'm sending a copy of this to the Postal Inspector for the Staten Island area. I'm really getting fed up with this. > >Received: from franklin.seas.gwu.edu by phoenix.oulu.fi; > (5.65/1.1.8.2/29Aug94-8.2MPM) > id AA29180; Sun, 14 Jan 1996 03:32:17 +0200 > >Received: from [198.70.174.245] (chi-pm2-21.freeppp.com > [198.70.174.245]) by franklin.seas.gwu.edu (8.7.1/8.7.1) with SMTP id TAA22800; Sat, 13 Jan 1996 19:25:40 -0500 (EST) > >X-Sender: jennie@uni.liverpool.ac.uk (Unverified) > >Message-Id: > >Mime-Version: 1.0 > >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > >Reply-To: > please.reply.via.fax.or.via.smail@fax.number.or.smail.address.shown.below > >Approved: moderator > >Date: Sat, 13 Jan 1996 19:31:20 -0500 > >To: jennie@uni.liverpool.ac.uk > >From: jennie@uni.liverpool.ac.uk, steinling@rentwes.org.uk, > chiu@otego.ac.uk, > ronnie@jhg.co.uk, ellen@tci.co.uk, samuels@uni.london.ac.uk, > chen@birmingham.org.uk, chi@manchester.co.uk, wind@rfg1.co.uk, > susans@uni.rhodes.ac.uk, gregor@southampt.n.org.uk, > ellen@plymouth.ac.uk, gfos@fresno.co.uk, trens@uni.london.ac.uk, > jim@uni.london.ac.uk, fharile@plymouth.org.uk, relson@childs.co.uk, > nels@hall.co.uk, sarap@ruv4.co.uk, > gspelling@earthlite.co.uk (Association of > International Students, Executive Board of Directors, UK Chapter) > Subject: ===>> FREE 1 yr. Magazine Sub sent worldwide- 295+ Popular USA Titles > > -----> NOTE: Please first read my note which appears below the "Request > for more info Form." Then, to get more info, just fill out the "Request > for More Info" form completely and *FAX* or *SMAIL* it back to the company. > You will get a quick reply via email within 1 business day of receipt of > the info request form below. > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Return-Path: > Received: from relay3.UU.NET by sacusr.mp.usbr.gov (MX V4.2 VAX) with SMTP; > Sun, 14 Jan 1996 04:13:50 PST > Received: from miles.greatcircle.com by relay3.UU.NET with ESMTP id > QQzyma13443; Sun, 14 Jan 1996 07:12:16 -0500 (EST) > Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com > (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id EAA20017 for list-managers-outgoing; > Sun, 14 Jan 1996 04:09:29 -0800 (PST) > Received: from oulu.fi (ousrvr.oulu.fi [130.231.240.1]) by > miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id EAA20001 > for ; Sun, 14 Jan 1996 04:09:19 -0800 > (PST) > Received: from raita.oulu.fi by oulu.fi (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA11011; Sun, 14 Jan > 96 14:08:21 +0200 > Received: from haapa.oulu.fi by raita.oulu.fi via ESMTP > (950911.SGI.8.6.12.PATCH825/930416.SGI.AUTO) for > id OAA20757; Sun, 14 Jan 1996 > 14:08:09 +0200 > Received: (mhotti@localhost) by haapa.oulu.fi > (950911.SGI.8.6.12.PATCH825/8.6.9) id OAA23027; Sun, 14 Jan 1996 > 14:08:09 +0200 > Date: Sun, 14 Jan 1996 14:08:07 +0200 (EET) > From: Marko Hotti > To: list-managers@greatcircle.com > Subject: FREE 1 yr. magazine sub spam - again! :-I > Message-ID: > MIME-Version: 1.0 > Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII > Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM > Precedence: bulk From list-managers-owner Sun Jan 14 14:55:46 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id OAA23500 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 14 Jan 1996 14:48:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from svcs1.digex.net (svcs1.digex.net [204.91.197.224]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id OAA23495 for ; Sun, 14 Jan 1996 14:48:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from jjflash.digex.net (dyn000138.belt.digex.net [206.181.16.138]) by svcs1.digex.net (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id RAA04911; Sun, 14 Jan 1996 17:47:37 -0500 Message-Id: <2.2.32.19960114224626.006c392c@access.digex.net> X-Sender: jjflash@access.digex.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 14 Jan 1996 17:46:26 -0500 To: "Henry W. Miller" From: Jack Subject: RE: FREE 1 yr. magazine sub spam - again! :-I Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Hi - I just wanted to add my voice to those list managers who got this spam. Fortunately, the one to my list got bounced to me and I haven't yet decided what to do with it. At 04:32 AM 1/14/96 PST, Henry W. Miller wrote: >> From: MX%"mhotti@raita.oulu.fi" 14-JAN-1996 04:14:31.75 >> Subj: FREE 1 yr. magazine sub spam - again! :-I > >> >> On sunday morning I noticed that our two international mailing lists >> VOCALIST and FINLANDIA had been attacked. This 'FREE 1 yr. magazine >> subscription' spam occurred several times last year and I had to include >> extra checks to the MD resend code so that these spams won't get to the >> relay. So this actually didn't get to the distribution - luckily! :) Take care, Jack ********************************************** jjflash@pobox.com ********************************************** http://www.pobox.com/~jjflash ********************************************** "If I am not for myself, who will be for me? If I am only for myself, what am I? If not now, when?" - Hillel ********************************************** From list-managers-owner Sun Jan 14 15:25:48 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id PAA25217 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 14 Jan 1996 15:11:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from apollo.COSC.GOV (apollo.COSC.GOV [198.94.103.34]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-951221-1) with ESMTP id PAA25210 for ; Sun, 14 Jan 1996 15:11:25 -0800 (PST) Received: (from vince@localhost) by apollo.COSC.GOV (8.7.3/8.6.9) id PAA11127; Sun, 14 Jan 1996 15:10:23 -0800 (PST) Date: Sun, 14 Jan 1996 15:10:22 -0800 (PST) From: -Vince- To: Jack cc: "Henry W. Miller" , list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: RE: FREE 1 yr. magazine sub spam - again! :-I In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.19960114224626.006c392c@access.digex.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Sun, 14 Jan 1996, Jack wrote: Hi everyone, > I just wanted to add my voice to those list managers who got this spam. > Fortunately, the one to my list got bounced to me and I haven't yet decided > what to do with it. Same thing here as well, it got bounced since they put Approved: in the header with moderator as the password so I just deleted it... It happened like once a month or something. Cheers, -Vince- vince@COSC.GOV - GUS Mailing Lists Admin - http://www.COSC.GOV/~vince UC Berkeley AstroPhysics - Electrical Engineering (Honorary B.S.) Chabot Observatory & Science Center - Board of Advisors Running FreeBSD - Real UN*X for Free! Linda Wong/Vivian Chow/Hacken Lee/Danny Chan/Priscilla Chan Fan Club Mailing Lists Admin > At 04:32 AM 1/14/96 PST, Henry W. Miller wrote: > > > >> From: MX%"mhotti@raita.oulu.fi" 14-JAN-1996 04:14:31.75 > >> Subj: FREE 1 yr. magazine sub spam - again! :-I > > > >> > >> On sunday morning I noticed that our two international mailing lists > >> VOCALIST and FINLANDIA had been attacked. This 'FREE 1 yr. magazine > >> subscription' spam occurred several times last year and I had to include > >> extra checks to the MD resend code so that these spams won't get to the > >> relay. So this actually didn't get to the distribution - luckily! :) > > Take care, > Jack > ********************************************** > jjflash@pobox.com > ********************************************** > http://www.pobox.com/~jjflash > ********************************************** > "If I am not for myself, who will be for me? > If I am only for myself, what am I? > If not now, when?" > - Hillel > ********************************************** > > From list-managers-owner Mon Jan 15 11:25:51 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id LAA19264 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 15 Jan 1996 11:11:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from rw.realworks.com (rw.realworks.com [204.215.48.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id LAA19258 for ; Mon, 15 Jan 1996 11:11:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from chipmunk (rschrock.realworks.com [204.215.48.22]) by rw.realworks.com (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id NAA00970 for ; Mon, 15 Jan 1996 13:15:04 -0600 Date: Mon, 15 Jan 1996 13:15:04 -0600 Message-Id: <199601151915.NAA00970@rw.realworks.com> X-Sender: rschrock@realworks.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: list-managers@greatcircle.com From: Randy Schrock Subject: The "WHO" command Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I and running a new installation of Majordomo v1.93. Everything is working well. I have a quick questions: Is there a way of running an moderate=no, subscribe_policy=open list and limiting the ability of the "WHO" command? I have the private_* parameters set to yes. Thanks in advance. Randy Schrock - rschrock@realworks.com - http://www.realworks.com/schrock President, Schrock & Associates, Inc. - Westwood, KS - (913) 432-8880 From list-managers-owner Tue Jan 16 07:55:54 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id HAA25789 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 16 Jan 1996 07:55:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from liverbird.liverpool.ac.uk (livbird.liv.ac.uk [138.253.31.12]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-951221-1) with ESMTP id HAA25774 for ; Tue, 16 Jan 1996 07:55:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from liverbird.liverpool.ac.uk by liverbird.liverpool.ac.uk via Local channel id <20321-0@liverbird.liverpool.ac.uk>; Tue, 16 Jan 1996 15:53:05 +0000 Subject: Re: FREE 1 yr. magazine sub spam - again! :-I To: henrym@sacto.mp.usbr.gov (Henry W. Miller) Date: Tue, 16 Jan 1996 15:53:03 +0000 (GMT) Cc: mhotti@raita.oulu.fi, list-managers@greatcircle.com, henrym@sacto.mp.usbr.gov In-Reply-To: <0099C5C1.B6F79338.201@sacto.mp.usbr.gov> from "Henry W. Miller" at Jan 14, 96 04:32:02 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 ME7] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Alan Thew Message-ID: <"liverbird.li:203230:960116155308"@liverbird.liverpool.ac.uk> Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk In the last mail, Henry W. Miller wrote: > > > From: MX%"mhotti@raita.oulu.fi" 14-JAN-1996 04:14:31.75 > > Subj: FREE 1 yr. magazine sub spam - again! :-I > > > > > On sunday morning I noticed that our two international mailing lists > > VOCALIST and FINLANDIA had been attacked. This 'FREE 1 yr. magazine > > subscription' spam occurred several times last year and I had to include > > extra checks to the MD resend code so that these spams won't get to the > > relay. So this actually didn't get to the distribution - luckily! :) > > > > I have included the headers of this spam here. I have also sent notes to > > several roots on the hosts appearing in the headers but I think some of > > them have no idea of what's going on. > > .... > > OK, tomorrow I email the administrators at GWU, FREEPPP (this is > not the first time they've been used as a portal) and SPRINTLINK, who is > the ISP for FREEPPP. Glad that some people actually realised that nobody and the University of Liverpool was responsible. Don't people ever look at headers? (no need to answer... ) > > Monday, I'm sending a copy of this to the Postal Inspector for the > Staten Island area. > > I'm really getting fed up with this. > > > >Received: from franklin.seas.gwu.edu by phoenix.oulu.fi; > > (5.65/1.1.8.2/29Aug94-8.2MPM) > > id AA29180; Sun, 14 Jan 1996 03:32:17 +0200 > > >Received: from [198.70.174.245] (chi-pm2-21.freeppp.com > > [198.70.174.245]) by franklin.seas.gwu.edu (8.7.1/8.7.1) with SMTP id TAA22800; Sat, 13 Jan 1996 19:25:40 -0500 (EST) > > >X-Sender: jennie@uni.liverpool.ac.uk (Unverified) > > >Message-Id: > > >Mime-Version: 1.0 > > >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > >Reply-To: > > please.reply.via.fax.or.via.smail@fax.number.or.smail.address.shown.below > > >Approved: moderator > > >Date: Sat, 13 Jan 1996 19:31:20 -0500 > > >To: jennie@uni.liverpool.ac.uk > > >From: jennie@uni.liverpool.ac.uk, steinling@rentwes.org.uk, > -- Alan Thew alan.thew@liv.ac.uk ...!uknet!liv!alan.thew Tel: +44 151 794-4497 University of Liverpool, Computing Services Fax: +44 151 794-4442 From list-managers-owner Tue Jan 16 09:40:54 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id JAA00709 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 16 Jan 1996 09:39:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from gateway.fmp.com (gateway.fmp.com [198.3.116.18]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id JAA00695 for ; Tue, 16 Jan 1996 09:39:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from castle.fmp.com (castle.fmp.com [198.3.116.19]) by gateway.fmp.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id LAA21038 for ; Tue, 16 Jan 1996 11:37:47 -0600 Message-Id: <199601161737.LAA21038@gateway.fmp.com> X-Sender: fmouse@gateway.fmp.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.1.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 16 Jan 1996 11:38:27 -0600 To: list-managers@greatcircle.com From: Lindsay Haisley Subject: RE: FREE 1 yr. magazine sub spam - again! :-I Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > > OK, tomorrow I email the administrators at GWU, FREEPPP (this is >not the first time they've been used as a portal) and SPRINTLINK, who is >the ISP for FREEPPP. It may or may not be relevant, but I received a personal spam today which also bore a transmission header supplied by freeppp.com. I'm appending the headers from this below for the information of anyone who may be able to use the information. >X-POP3-Rcpt: fmouse@gateway >Return-Path: rofli@ibm.net >Received: from slip-1.slip.net (slip-1.slip.net [204.160.88.10]) by gateway.fmp.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id JAA20088 for ; Tue, 16 Jan 1996 09:01:16 -0600 >From: rofli@ibm.net >Received: from [198.70.174.208] (chi-pm4-14.freeppp.com [198.70.174.208]) by slip-1.slip.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id FAA25721; Tue, 16 Jan 1996 05:14:04 -0800 >X-Sender: injured@ixc.net (Unverified) >Message-Id: >Mime-Version: 1.0 >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >Date: Tue, 16 Jan 1996 06:45:00 +0130 >To: (Recipient list suppressed) >Subject: "Dead Doctors Don't Lie" > >*************************** New Vision International**************************** > > I HATE TO SELL, I HATE TO RECRUIT, I HATE MEETINGS AND 1 ON 1 > PRESENTATIONS; > >But I found a way to get rich in NETWORK MARKETING >and now I'm ready to reveal the simple secret to you: > > "DEAD DOCTORS DON'T LIE" > >This amazing audio tape is the best sponsoring tool I have ever seen. >In my first month I sponsored 110 people and in 10 weeks my group >grew to 749. NO MEETINGS, NO 1 ON 1 PRESENTATIONS, NO RECRUITING >PHONE CALLS, AND NO SELLING. All I have done is mail the tape to >people and let it do all of the work. >blah, blah, blah, etc.... (______) Lindsay Haisley (oo) "The bull FMP Computer Services /------\/ stops here!" fmouse@fmp.com / | || Austin, Texas, USA * ||---|| * * * * * * (512) 259-1190 ~~ ~~ http://www.fmp.com From list-managers-owner Tue Jan 16 12:40:53 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id MAA08042 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 16 Jan 1996 12:13:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from utep.el.utwente.nl (utep.el.utwente.nl [130.89.30.10]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id MAA08018 for ; Tue, 16 Jan 1996 12:13:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from scin1.el.utwente.nl by utep.el.utwente.nl with SMTP id AA14910 (5.65c/IDA-1.4.4 for ); Tue, 16 Jan 1996 21:03:43 +0100 Received: from SCINTILLA_RULES/SpoolDir by scin1.el.utwente.nl (Mercury 1.21); 16 Jan 96 21:10:33 +0100 Received: from SpoolDir by SCINTILLA_RULES (Mercury 1.21); 16 Jan 96 21:10:09 +0100 From: "Fred van Dijk" Organization: EE Study Association 'Scintilla' To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Date: Tue, 16 Jan 1996 21:10:00 +0100 Subject: Errors-To: header with mailinglists? Reply-To: f.vandijk@scintilla.utwente.nl X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail v3.22 Message-Id: <54BB8AF63DE@scin1.el.utwente.nl> Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Hello, I've been reading the messages on this newsgroup for a while and have finally reached the level of complete despair, giving me the strenght to send this question :-) I'm the manager of a list with +/- 200 members. This amount of subscribers implies that there are always a few address incorrect, not reachable, server down, full mailbox, etc. This is normal. In every message there is an errors-to header which sends reports of these failures to me. For some obscure reason some of these failure-messages are not always sent to me only, but to the original sender of the message too! And the original sender of the message hasn't got the smallest clue what has happened and asks me what's going wrong. I am subscribed to several mailing-lists and they never send me these error-messages, so my question is: how do you do that? Is there someone who has had the same experience or knows the cause of this? Greetings, Fred van Dijk From list-managers-owner Wed Jan 17 02:56:24 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id CAA08534 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 17 Jan 1996 02:41:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from felix.dircon.co.uk (felix.dircon.co.uk [193.128.224.10]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id CAA08503 for ; Wed, 17 Jan 1996 02:41:26 -0800 (PST) Received: by felix.dircon.co.uk id AA04022 (5.67b/IDA-1.5 for ); Wed, 17 Jan 1996 10:39:42 GMT Received: from diversity.org.uk(193.128.226.199) by amnesiac via smap (V1.3) id sma003993; Wed Jan 17 10:39:16 1996 From: nigel@stonewall.demon.co.uk Subject: Re: Errors-To: header with mailinglists? Organization: Digital Diversity Date: Wed, 17 Jan 1996 10:33:53 GMT Message-Id: References: <54BB8AF63DE@scin1.el.utwente.nl> To: list-managers@stonewall.demon.co.uk Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk In article <54BB8AF63DE@scin1.el.utwente.nl> FRED@scintilla.utwente.nl (Fred van Dijk) writes: >For some obscure reason some of these failure-messages are not always sent >to me only, but to the original sender of the message too! And the original >sender of the message hasn't got the smallest clue what has happened and >asks me what's going wrong. > >I am subscribed to several mailing-lists and they never send me these >error-messages, so my question is: how do you do that? The problem stems from a huge number of different mailers, all around the world, that handle errors in different ways. The correct way for errors to be handled on the Internet should be for them to be sent back to the address in the envelope (which will also usually appear in the From line at the start of the headers). You can't always set this in your mailer; it'll depend on how your system is set up. The way that I currently ensure the correct address is present, regardless of the mail system being used, it to use a script on my list software that initiates an SMTP chat with the local host for the messages. (It also sorts addresses according to a specified domain list, allowing slow addresses to have their own copy of the message in the queue). In a real world, that would be sufficient. But there are some systems that ignore the envelope address (especially gateways, which seem to have a problem; I had a lot of hassle with various home-spun JANet systems, too). Errors-To: is recognised by some of these. And some others will use the Reply-To: address, so you could set that to the list admin address (but there are equally good reasons not to). The busiest list I run is a lesbian and gay one, where we try not to disclose the membership. These bounces (and there are ways, some rather crude, of forcing them) will often reveal the presence of someone on the list who may not be out, or want their membership know. So, I've done quite a lot of fiddling over the years to try and ensure that it's not possible to find out who's on the list. It doesn't support commands like 'who,' strips out Acknowledge-To and Return-Receipt-To headers, inserts an Errors-To for the list admin address, has the list-admin address in the envelope, and sets Reply-To to the list, which filters out postings from non members. Unfortunately, there are still mailers out there that will send errors back to the From: address, in spite of all that. For most lists, that's probably not a significant enough number to worry about. In this particular case, there's some rather more substantial header re-writing that turns headers like this: >From nigel@diversity.org.uk To: uk-motss@dircon.co.uk From: nigel@diversity.org.uk (Nigel Whitfield) into this: >From uk-motss-request@dircon.co.uk To: Multiple recipients of list X-Original-From: nigel@diversity.org.uk (Nigel Whitfield) From: UKM-Nigel Whitfield Reply-To: uk-motss@dircon.co.uk Errors-To: uk-motss-request@dircon.co.uk I'm well aware that there are people who will think that utterly horrible, and I wouldn't recommend it for many lists, but if you consider it important that there be no errors sent back to members, for whatever reason, then it's probably about the only way to reliably take account of all the broken mailers out there. Nigel. -- Nigel Whitfield nigel@diversity.org.uk Digital Diversity nigel@stonewall.demon.co.uk and uk-motss ***** All demon.co.uk sites are independently run internet hosts ***** From list-managers-owner Thu Jan 18 06:42:13 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id FAA21075 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 18 Jan 1996 05:56:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (mycroft.greatcircle.com [198.102.244.35]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id FAA20810 for ; Thu, 18 Jan 1996 05:55:58 -0800 (PST) Received: by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.10/SMI-4.1/Brent-951213) id WAA07336; Wed, 17 Jan 1996 22:40:39 -0800 Received: from wilma.cs.utk.edu(128.169.94.141) by mycroft via smap (V1.3mjr) id sma007285; Wed Jan 17 22:39:37 1996 Received: from LOCALHOST by wilma.cs.utk.edu with SMTP (cf v2.11c-UTK) id BAA03327; Thu, 18 Jan 1996 01:41:24 -0500 Message-Id: <199601180641.BAA03327@wilma.cs.utk.edu> X-URI: http://www.cs.utk.edu/~moore/ From: Keith Moore To: f.vandijk@scintilla.utwente.nl cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com, moore@cs.utk.edu Subject: Re: Errors-To: header with mailinglists? In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 16 Jan 1996 21:10:00 +0100." <54BB8AF63DE@scin1.el.utwente.nl> Date: Thu, 18 Jan 1996 01:41:16 -0500 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > I am subscribed to several mailing-lists and they never send me these > error-messages, so my question is: how do you do that? First of all: Errors-To should never be used in outgoing mail, and it should never be honored by any MTA. Errors-To is not a standard header. MTAs should *always* send error messages to the envelope return address, which appears in the MAIL FROM command of the SMTP envelope, or if not in SMTP, in the Return-Path header. Every MTA that I know of that supports Errors-to also does things the right way if Errors-To is not present, so it's arguably better to leave Errors-to out of the message. What's more, the presence of multiple possible error reporting addresses makes for ambiguous handling at best (where does the message go if there is a choice?). (and no, setting them all to point to the same place doesn't always work because there's a possibility that list down stream will rewrite one of them and not the other.) Second: if you run a list, the way you get bounces to go to the list maintainer is to set the envelope return path (SMTP MAIL FROM) to point to the address of the list maintainer. This isn't done by adding a message header. If the list sends mail using sendmail, the -f command-line option can be used to set the envelope return path. Third: many mailers and gateways are broken in that they return mail to the header From address instead of the envelope return address. Some lists set the From address on outgoing mail to point to the list (a very ugly thing to do IMHO), and try to filter error messages to keep them from being sent back to the list. I've seen disasterous results from this approach, either because the list filtered out perfectly valid messages, or because the list let some slip through. Some lists do this better than others, but fortunately, most lists just set the envelope return address to the right place and leave the From header alone. What this generally means is that the list maintainer gets bounces from mailers that work, and the submitter of a message gets bounces from broken mailers. (but at least they don't go to the whole list) Keith Moore From list-managers-owner Thu Jan 18 11:42:11 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id LAA18172 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 18 Jan 1996 11:27:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from sgi.sgi.com (SGI.COM [192.48.153.1]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id LAA16928 for ; Thu, 18 Jan 1996 11:14:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from lunch.engr.sgi.com by sgi.sgi.com via ESMTP (950405.SGI.8.6.12/910110.SGI) for <@sgi.sgi.com:list-managers@greatcircle.com> id LAA09957; Thu, 18 Jan 1996 11:13:30 -0800 Received: by lunch.engr.sgi.com (950511.SGI.8.6.12.PATCH526/940406.SGI.AUTO) for list-managers@greatcircle.com id LAA03028; Thu, 18 Jan 1996 11:13:27 -0800 From: close@lunch.engr.sgi.com (Diane Barlow Close) Message-Id: <199601181913.LAA03028@lunch.engr.sgi.com> Subject: What to do about magazines and books? To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Date: Thu, 18 Jan 1996 11:13:26 -0800 (PST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL0a8s] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I run several private mailing lists and have had the great misfortune to have them "mentioned" in a dozen national magazines and several books over the past two years. None of the magazines or their reporters or any editor has EVER contacted me before printing the "information" on my lists. ALL have provided incorrect information about my lists. This includes, in four cases, a non-existant "home address" for me, so readers could write to me for more information -- even though I have no further information I can provide by regular mail. Even Internet World, who should know better, printed information about my lists without ever asking me if I wanted the info printed, or ever checking with me to see if the information they had was correct. It was not. They printed an incorrect address for two of my lists that was over two years out of date! Every single time my lists have been mentioned, always incorrectly, my site has been flooded with angry letters to the postmaster demanding to know where my list(s) is and expressing frustration over their not being able to subscribe using the bad directions published in the book or magazine. I have never, ever asked or wanted to be published in any magazine or book. My lists run by the good graces of my host site with the condition that I am no burden to their system. Now that magazines and books are publishing false information, without ever checking with me, the mailing list owner, I have been forced to consider closing subscriptions or even the lists themselves, to limit further harrassement of my postmaster and myself. Far too much "busy work" and damage has been done by the bad information circulating about something that's my private, personal, volunteer hobby. What can be done about stopping this flood of bad information circulating without any checks ever being done? Is it a hopeless task? What happened to journalistic ethics and lessons on source checking? To me this is far more damaging than any spamming anyone could do to my lists. -- Diane Close I'm at lunch all day. :-) If a Canadian Had Said It First (The Globe & Mail): "Cry havoc, and let loose the dogs of a peacekeeping mission!" From list-managers-owner Thu Jan 18 12:47:18 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id MAA19857 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 18 Jan 1996 12:17:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from sgi.sgi.com (SGI.COM [192.48.153.1]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8From list-managers-owner Fri Jan 19 15:54:10 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id PAA27354 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 19 Jan 1996 15:45:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from hera.cuci.nl (hera.cuci.nl [194.183.100.1]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-951221-1) with ESMTP id PAA27347 for ; Fri, 19 Jan 1996 15:45:46 -0800 (PST) Received: (from srb@localhost) by hera.cuci.nl (8.7.3/BuGless_1.02) id AAA09592; Sat, 20 Jan 1996 00:44:00 +0100 Message-Id: <199601192344.AAA09592@hera.cuci.nl> From: srb@cuci.nl (Stephen R. van den Berg) Date: Sat, 20 Jan 1996 00:43:58 +0100 In-Reply-To: "David Johnson (Exchange)"'s message as of 1996 Jan 19 Fri 11:19. To: "David Johnson (Exchange)" , "'list-managers@greatcircle.com'" Subject: Re: Automated replies and mailing lists Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk "David Johnson (Exchange)" wrote: >I am working with some software that can generate automated replies to >messages users receive. Currently, the software sends these replies to the >address in the Reply-To 822 header if present; otherwise the From header. I'd say, always use the Return-path (AKA From_) information in your case then. However, there are some things you can do to prevent replying to lists (several clues in the header of the incoming mail can reveal a mailinglist). Also, a widely used practice in autoresponders that use procmail/formail is to add: X-Loop: your@own.mail.address to your outgoing header. Also, *preserve* any existing X-Loop: fields that were present on the incoming mail. Now, before you generate the autoreply, check if "X-Loop: your@own.mail.address" was already part of the header of the incoming mail. Even in the odd case that you'd miss some kind of mailinglist or other alias, having the X-Loop: field in there is kind of a last minute insurance to prevent infinite loops (it's not foolproof, but better than nothing). If the autoreplies do not need to be replied to at all, then make sure you set your return-path to <> before sending of the autoreply. -- Sincerely, srb@cuci.nl Stephen R. van den Berg (AKA BuGless). This is a day for firm decisions! Or is it? From list-managers-owner Fri Jan 19 17:09:10 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id QAA00307 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 19 Jan 1996 16:52:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from maki.wwa.com (maki.wwa.com [198.49.174.21]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id QAA00302 for ; Fri, 19 Jan 1996 16:52:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from miso.wwa.com by maki.wwa.com with smtp (Smail3.1.29.1 #3) id m0tdRWS-000rLoC; Fri, 19 Jan 96 18:51 CST Received: by miso.wwa.com (Smail3.1.29.1 #2) id m0tdRWR-000YNNC; Fri, 19 Jan 96 18:51 CST Message-Id: From: dattier@wwa.com (David W. Tamkin) Subject: Re: Automated replies and mailing lists To: djohnson@wspu.MICROSOFT.com (David Johnson) Date: Fri, 19 Jan 1996 18:51:11 -0600 (CST) Cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com In-Reply-To: from "David Johnson" at Jan 19, 96 11:19:38 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk David Johnson wrote, | (The best solution might be to not | send the automated replies at all, but that is not an option at this point.) Well, move to the next point so that it can be an option. Why do you want to send automated replies to items that your users receive from mailing lists? Generally autoresponders for people who belong to mailing lists should NOT to reply to mail from those lists. If any of the lists I have run had a member whose site sent back any kind of receipt to every item from the list, I'd ask that member to prevent it, and if the member could not or would not, I'd take him or her off, requesting that he or she find email access somewhere else. I regularly do disable subscriptions of people who let a badly designed vacation program reply to mailing list items; I write them to explain and ask them to write to me when they're back in person and will be accepting the list again so that I can reactivate their subscriptions then. I also ask them to notify me in the future before they go so that I can turn off their subscriptions during their absences or at the least to fix their vacation setups. From list-managers-owner Sat Jan 20 09:15:55 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id JAA11960 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 20 Jan 1996 09:10:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from outsider.bolis.sf-bay.org (bolis.isp.net [204.153.195.10]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id JAA11946 for ; Sat, 20 Jan 1996 09:10:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from hock.bolis.sf-bay.org by outsider.bolis.sf-bay.org with smtp (Smail3.1.29.1 #3) id m0tdgkY-00041jC; Sat, 20 Jan 96 09:06 PST Received: from amillar by hock.bolis.sf-bay.org with smtp (Smail3.1.28.1 #6) id m0tdgWT-000UreC; Sat, 20 Jan 96 08:52 PST Message-Id: Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Alan Millar" Organization: The Bolis Group To: Keith Moore , "'list-managers@greatcircle.com'" Date: Sat, 20 Jan 1996 08:54:09 -800 Subject: Re: Automated replies and mailing lists X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.01) Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On 19 Jan 96 at 17:33, Keith Moore wrote: > It's not really clear from RFC 822, but From/Reply-to should probably only be > used for human-generated replies. A number of things aren't clear in RFC 822; that's why RFC 1123 was written. > many systems incorrectly send error messages (i.e. nondelivery reports) to the > >From header address. Such lists usually try to filter out error messages, I'm not sure what you mean by "incorrectly", but RFC1123 clearly states that non-delivery reports must be sent to the envelope address, which is the From_ line. That is the only correct address for error messages to be sent to. - Alan ---- Alan Millar amillar@bolis.SF-Bay.org System Administrator http://www.bolis.com Windows/NT - From the people who brought you EDLIN -Herb Peyerl From list-managers-owner Sat Jan 20 09:30:52 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id JAA12329 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 20 Jan 1996 09:14:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from [198.102.244.39] (pm-ppp-1.greatcircle.com [198.102.244.39]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id JAA12304; Sat, 20 Jan 1996 09:14:08 -0800 (PST) X-Sender: brent@miles.greatcircle.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 20 Jan 1996 11:13:22 +0100 To: "David Johnson (Exchange)" , "'list-managers@greatcircle.com'" From: Brent@GreatCircle.COM (Brent Chapman) Subject: Re: Automated replies and mailing lists Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 11:19 AM 1/19/96, David Johnson (Exchange) wrote: >I am working with some software that can generate automated replies to >messages users receive. Currently, the software sends these replies to the >address in the Reply-To 822 header if present; otherwise the From header. > >This has caused a problem with at least one mailing list, where the list >server sets From to the original sender, and sets Reply-To to point to the >list. The automated replies go to the list instead of the original sender, >which would be the preferred behavior. (The best solution might be to not >send the automated replies at all, but that is not an option at this point.) >One fix I am considering is to reconfigure the software so it sends >automated replies to the From address instead of Reply-To. > >However, I'm concerned that this might introduce problems with other mailing >lists. If any list servers set the From to point to the list, the problem >will show up again. > >Are any of you list managers out there using such a configuration? There's a better solution, taken from the UNIX "vacation" program: auto-replies should ONLY be sent if the address the auto-replier is monitoring _explicitly_ appears in the "To:" or "Cc:" lines of the header. This very effectively keeps the auto-replier from replying to mailing list postings, etc. -Brent ----------------------+----------------------------+------------------------ Brent Chapman | Great Circle Associates | 1057 West Dana Street Brent@GreatCircle.COM | http://www.greatcircle.com | Mountain View, CA 94041 ----------------------+----------------------------+------------------------ Internet Tutorials from the Experts! From list-managers-owner Sat Jan 20 12:30:53 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id MAA26672 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 20 Jan 1996 12:18:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (mycroft.greatcircle.com [198.102.244.35]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id MAA26667 for ; Sat, 20 Jan 1996 12:18:15 -0800 (PST) Received: by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.10/SMI-4.1/Brent-951213) id MAA01334; Sat, 20 Jan 1996 12:14:56 -0800 Received: from wilma.cs.utk.edu(128.169.94.141) by mycroft via smap (V1.3mjr) id sma001332; Sat Jan 20 12:13:55 1996 Received: from LOCALHOST by wilma.cs.utk.edu with SMTP (cf v2.11c-UTK) id PAA01349; Sat, 20 Jan 1996 15:14:21 -0500 Message-Id: <199601202014.PAA01349@wilma.cs.utk.edu> X-URI: http://www.cs.utk.edu/~moore/ From: Keith Moore To: "Alan Millar" cc: Keith Moore , "'list-managers@greatcircle.com'" Subject: Re: Automated replies and mailing lists In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 20 Jan 1996 08:54:09." Date: Sat, 20 Jan 1996 15:14:14 -0500 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > On 19 Jan 96 at 17:33, Keith Moore wrote: > > > It's not really clear from RFC 822, but From/Reply-to should probably > > only be used for human-generated replies. > > A number of things aren't clear in RFC 822; that's why RFC 1123 was > written. Yes, but what's your point? > > many systems incorrectly send error messages (i.e. nondelivery reports) > > to the From header address. Such lists usually try to filter out error > > messages, > > I'm not sure what you mean by "incorrectly", but RFC1123 clearly > states that non-delivery reports must be sent to the envelope > address, which is the From_ line. That is the only correct address > for error messages to be sent to. By "incorrectly", I mean that systems that send non-delivery messages to the address in the From header field violate RFCs 821 and 1123. The so-called From_ line is an artifiact of some UNIX-based mail program; it's not a standard header field and therefore probably not relevant to the question posed by the person from Microsoft. (NB: The From_ line is not the same thing as the From header field.) Also, while the convention is usually that the From_ line contains a copy of the envelope return address, this is not universally true. Sometimes the From_ line contains a reply address, a holdover from the days when some user agents didn't understand RFC 822 message headers. Sometimes the From_ line contains a "bang path" version of the UUCP path back to the sender, which is not quite the same thing as the envelope return address. User agents and mail robots should therefore avoid using From_ if the information is available from a more reliable source. The standard source of the envelope return address is the Return-Path header field. This is also clearly indicated in RFC 1123. Keith Moore From list-managers-owner Sat Jan 20 16:15:53 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id QAA04954 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 20 Jan 1996 16:01:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from sulmail.stanford.edu (sulmail.Stanford.EDU [36.31.0.11]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id QAA04917 for ; Sat, 20 Jan 1996 16:01:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from FOON-ISDN2.stanford.edu (Foon-ISDN2.Stanford.EDU [36.179.0.117]) by sulmail.stanford.edu (8.6.12/8.6.6) with SMTP id QAA20084 for ; Sat, 20 Jan 1996 16:02:10 -0800 From: Curtis Foon To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Newsletters Message-ID: Date: Sat, 20 Jan 1996 15:57:15 -0500 (EST) X-Mailer: Simeon for Windows X-Authentication: none MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Is is possible to use Majordomo for a monthly newsletter mailer? I don't want this to be a discussion list which means nobody can post. Is it possible to have the "From:" to be a constant address rather than the person who sent it. A couple of different people would be generating this newsletter, so I don't want their mail address on the "From:" line. -Curtis ------------------------------------ Curtis Foon cfoon@sulmail.stanford.edu From list-managers-owner Sat Jan 20 19:15:53 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id TAA10762 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 20 Jan 1996 19:11:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.erols.com (mail.erols.com [205.252.116.14]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id TAA10757 for ; Sat, 20 Jan 1996 19:11:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from erols.com.erols.com (pppb189.erols.com [206.161.72.189]) by mail.erols.com (8.6.5/8.6.5) with SMTP id WAA15490 for ; Sat, 20 Jan 1996 22:07:49 -0500 Date: Sat, 20 Jan 1996 22:07:49 -0500 Message-Id: <199601210307.WAA15490@mail.erols.com> X-Sender: markb@mail.erols.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Mark Bernkopf Subject: Electronic Mailing Lists and Electronic Newsletters Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Can anyone recommend an article or a book on publishing e-mail newsletters -- including software and hardware options? I am familiar with the names of the listservers and the operating systems. But if there was some article or publication that put all the information in one place, that would be great. There are tons of books on Web publishing, but I've not found a single one on e-mail publishing. Many thanks. ==================================== Mark Bernkopf e-mail: markb@mail.erols.com tel. 703-516-9265 Arlington, Virginia, U.S.A. ==================================== From list-managers-owner Sat Jan 20 19:30:55 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id TAA11080 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 20 Jan 1996 19:20:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from outsider.bolis.sf-bay.org (bolis.isp.net [204.153.195.10]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id TAA11066 for ; Sat, 20 Jan 1996 19:20:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from hock.bolis.sf-bay.org by outsider.bolis.sf-bay.org with smtp (Smail3.1.29.1 #3) id m0tdqGq-00040xC; Sat, 20 Jan 96 19:16 PST Received: from amillar by hock.bolis.sf-bay.org with smtp (Smail3.1.28.1 #6) id m0tdq1g-000UreC; Sat, 20 Jan 96 19:01 PST Message-Id: Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Alan Millar" Organization: The Bolis Group To: Keith Moore , Date: Sat, 20 Jan 1996 19:02:09 -800 Subject: Re: Automated replies and mailing lists X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.01) Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On 20 Jan 96 at 15:14, Keith Moore wrote: > > > It's not really clear from RFC 822, but From/Reply-to should probably > > > only be used for human-generated replies. > > > > A number of things aren't clear in RFC 822; that's why RFC 1123 was > > written. > > Yes, but what's your point? I misunderstood what you meant. My point actually was that RFC 822 isn't as clear as 1123 that error notices should go back to the envelope sender. > > > many systems incorrectly send error messages (i.e. nondelivery reports) > > > to the From header address. Such lists usually try to filter out error > > > messages, > > > > I'm not sure what you mean by "incorrectly", but RFC1123 clearly > > states that non-delivery reports must be sent to the envelope > > address, which is the From_ line. That is the only correct address > > for error messages to be sent to. > By "incorrectly", I mean that systems that send non-delivery messages to > the address in the From header field violate RFCs 821 and 1123. Sorry, it sounded like you were referring to the From_ line (which in this context I inferred to mean the envelope sender) as being incorrect. My mistake. You are, of course, absolutely correct that the From: header is the incorrect place to send it to. > The so-called From_ line is an artifiact of some UNIX-based mail > program; it's not a standard header field and therefore probably not > relevant to the question posed by the person from Microsoft. > > (NB: The From_ line is not the same thing as the From header field.) > > Also, while the convention is usually that the From_ line contains > a copy of the envelope return address, this is not universally true. > Sometimes the From_ line contains a reply address, a holdover from > the days when some user agents didn't understand RFC 822 message > headers. Sometimes the From_ line contains a "bang path" version > of the UUCP path back to the sender, which is not quite the same thing > as the envelope return address. > > User agents and mail robots should therefore avoid using From_ if > the information is available from a more reliable source. The > standard source of the envelope return address is the Return-Path > header field. This is also clearly indicated in RFC 1123. Interesting; I haven't come across a system that had a reply address in the From_ line, but it wouldn't surprise me that they're out there :-) Thanks for the extra info. - Alan ---- Alan Millar amillar@bolis.SF-Bay.org System Administrator http://www.bolis.com What part of 'NO' don't you understand? From list-managers-owner Sun Jan 21 05:45:54 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id FAA02882 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 21 Jan 1996 05:42:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from felix.dircon.co.uk (felix.dircon.co.uk [193.128.224.10]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id FAA02866 for ; Sun, 21 Jan 1996 05:42:13 -0800 (PST) Received: by felix.dircon.co.uk id AA26715 (5.67b/IDA-1.5 for ); Sun, 21 Jan 1996 13:40:58 GMT Received: from diversity.org.uk(193.128.226.199) by amnesiac via smap (V1.3) id smab26683; Sun Jan 21 13:40:43 1996 From: nigel@stonewall.demon.co.uk Subject: Re: Automated replies and mailing lists Organization: Digital Diversity Date: Sun, 21 Jan 1996 12:22:43 GMT Message-Id: References: To: list-managers@stonewall.demon.co.uk Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk In article amillar@bolis.sf-bay.org (Alan Millar) writes: >I'm not sure what you mean by "incorrectly", but RFC1123 clearly >states that non-delivery reports must be sent to the envelope >address, which is the From_ line. That is the only correct address >for error messages to be sent to. That's all very well, but there are a *lot* of systems out there that aren't compliant. Maybe I've come across these more because I'm in the UK, and I suspect that a lot of people simply bodged their old JNT compliant software to work with the internet protocols. I regularly receive bounces to the From: address, Reply-To: and To: list-managers Nigel. -- Nigel Whitfield nigel@diversity.org.uk Digital Diversity nigel@stonewall.demon.co.uk and uk-motss ***** All demon.co.uk sites are independently run internet hosts ***** From list-managers-owner Sun Jan 21 12:30:55 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id MAA10664 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 21 Jan 1996 12:26:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from xroads.vthrc.uq.edu.au (xroads.vthrc.uq.edu.au [130.102.4.16]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-951221-1) with ESMTP id MAA10656 for ; Sun, 21 Jan 1996 12:26:45 -0800 (PST) Received: (from root@localhost) by xroads.vthrc.uq.edu.au (8.7.3/8.7.3) id GAA07477 for ; Mon, 22 Jan 1996 06:18:22 +1000 (EST) Received: from arundel.vthrc.uq.edu.au(130.102.4.21) by xroads.vthrc.uq.edu.au via smap (V1.3) id sma007474; Mon Jan 22 06:18:03 1996 X-Sender: Vthomas@xroads.vthrc.uq.edu.au. Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 22 Jan 1996 06:24:43 +1000 To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM From: D.Thomas@vthrc.uq.edu.au (Danny Thomas) Subject: Re: Automated replies and mailing lists Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Brent@GreatCircle.COM (Brent Chapman) writes >There's a better solution, taken from the UNIX "vacation" program: >auto-replies should ONLY be sent if the address the auto-replier is >monitoring _explicitly_ appears in the "To:" or "Cc:" lines of the header. >This very effectively keeps the auto-replier from replying to mailing list >postings, etc. vacation does seem to do a good job but at least the one bundled with NetBSD uses two more heuristics in addition to To/Cc to determine whether to reply. These are listed at bottom of this comment block extracted from my deliver.sys script (deliver is an automated mailer). # 2) determining whether a reply should be generated. # This decision becomes more important when the program # is part of the user agent and without access to the # envelope address. I have also come across a few mailing- # lists which foolishly use the list address in the # envelope. Auto-generated noise might be an incentive # for this aspect to be changed 8-). # Still we want to minimize returns even if the envelope # address is reliably good, even if only to cut down on # the volume of mail admins have to filter. # # wrt to (1), we trust that sendmail's $g macro gives us # what we want. # wrt to (2), we consider a reply ill-advised when: # recipient address is not in To or Cc headers # a few mailing-lists do place recipient there # so they better have a *-errors reply envelope! # priority is bulk or junk # sender address is "postmaster", "uucp", "mailer", # "mailer-daemon" or "*-request" # NB these three are from vacation(1) # the combination of (1) and (2) is probably sufficient, # and certainly much better than many mail systems use. cheers, Danny Thomas (D.Thomas@vthrc.uq.edu.au) From list-managers-owner Sun Jan 21 23:15:56 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id XAA03547 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 21 Jan 1996 23:03:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from [198.102.244.42] (pb520.greatcircle.com [198.102.244.42]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id XAA03536; Sun, 21 Jan 1996 23:03:35 -0800 (PST) X-Sender: brent@miles.greatcircle.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 21 Jan 1996 23:02:47 +0100 To: dmckeon@swcp.com, list-managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Brent@GreatCircle.COM (Brent Chapman) Subject: Re: 3rd party auto-reply mailing list attack Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 1:10 PM 1/21/96, Denis McKeon wrote: >Brent - I was going to post this, and thought better of it - >perhaps you would find it useful on the list-managers mailing list. It's a relevant topic for List-managers. >This may be an old trick that I've just seen for the first time, >but one of the mailing lists that I subscribe to just got hit by it. > >For lists that support a subscription request format similar to: > > subscribe [] > >the attack method is to put an auto-replying address into the optional > location. Once the auto-replying address is >subscribed to the mailing list, every message sent to the list results >in a copy of the auto-reply info-blurb being sent to either all subscribers >on the list, or to the original sender of the message, depending on what >header the auto-replyer replies to, and on whether the list-server >preserves From: and/or Reply-To: headers from the original sender. > >The result is that (all|some of) the list subscribers get apparently >unsolicited informational blurbs in their inboxes, and blame the auto-replier. > >Possible defenses include: > >1) mailing list manager software could be configured to ignore and log > subscription requests for "info@" and perhaps some other very > commonly used auto-replier addresses. I'm not sure how effective this will be; there are an awful lot of such addresses. >2) mailing list manager software could be configured to continue > automatically processing subscription requests of the form: > > subscribe > > with the sending (From: or envelope) address as the > but to save for manual human processing subscription requests of: > > subscribe [] > > and requests of: > > subscribe > > where the Reply-To: differs from the sending (From: or envelope) address. This is what Majordomo does in its standard (recommended) configuration. >3) mailing list manager software could be configured to automatically > demand confirmation of subscription requests from all subscribers, > or from the 3rd party subscription cases in 2), above. Confirming > all subscriptions seems like overkill, but that's up to the list manager. This would entail some pretty major changes to Majordomo, to have it keep track of and eventually purge unconfirmed requests. >There doesn't seem to be much point in trying to defend against >this form of attack at the point of the auto-replier software. > >Tracing the attacking party might be possible, Not unless they're particularly stupid. >but third part subscription requests could be forged, >perhaps so that they point at a 4th innocent party. -Brent ----------------------+----------------------------+------------------------ Brent Chapman | Great Circle Associates | 1057 West Dana Street Brent@GreatCircle.COM | http://www.greatcircle.com | Mountain View, CA 94041 ----------------------+----------------------------+------------------------ Internet Tutorials from the Experts! From list-managers-owner Mon Jan 22 04:45:59 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id EAA23582 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 22 Jan 1996 04:35:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from antares.mcs.anl.gov (mcs.anl.gov [140.221.9.6]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id EAA23577; Mon, 22 Jan 1996 04:35:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from mcs.anl.gov (obie.mcs.anl.gov [140.221.5.129]) by antares.mcs.anl.gov (8.6.10/8.6.10) with ESMTP id GAA14584; Mon, 22 Jan 1996 06:33:46 -0600 Message-Id: <199601221233.GAA14584@antares.mcs.anl.gov> To: Brent@GreatCircle.COM (Brent Chapman) cc: dmckeon@swcp.com, list-managers@GreatCircle.COM, rackow@antares.mcs.anl.gov Subject: Re: 3rd party auto-reply mailing list attack In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 21 Jan 1996 23:02:47 +0100." Date: Mon, 22 Jan 1996 06:33:43 -0600 From: Gene Rackow Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Brent Chapman made the following keystrokes: >At 1:10 PM 1/21/96, Denis McKeon wrote: >>Brent - I was going to post this, and thought better of it - >>perhaps you would find it useful on the list-managers mailing list. > >I'm not sure how effective this will be; there are an awful lot of such >addresses. > >>2) mailing list manager software could be configured to continue >> automatically processing subscription requests of the form: >> >> subscribe >> >> with the sending (From: or envelope) address as the >> but to save for manual human processing subscription requests of: >> >> subscribe [] >> >> and requests of: >> >> subscribe >> >> where the Reply-To: differs from the sending (From: or envelope) address > . > >This is what Majordomo does in its standard (recommended) configuration. > A problem that I think both of you are overlooking is that the bozo could just munge his From: line to be what he wants and then the is not needed and the subscription needs no approval. ;-( I've used this method myself several times when I wanted to subscribe a local exploder to a remote mailing list without having to wait the several weeks for approval to happen. I don't see a method that is going to stop these bozo's from spamming the lists. --Gene From list-managers-owner Mon Jan 22 09:38:49 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id JAA01198 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 22 Jan 1996 09:22:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from [198.102.244.42] (pb520.greatcircle.com [198.102.244.42]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id JAA01186; Mon, 22 Jan 1996 09:22:09 -0800 (PST) X-Sender: brent@miles.greatcircle.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 22 Jan 1996 09:22:21 +0100 To: Gene Rackow From: Brent@GreatCircle.COM (Brent Chapman) Subject: Re: 3rd party auto-reply mailing list attack Cc: dmckeon@swcp.com, list-managers@GreatCircle.COM, rackow@antares.mcs.anl.gov Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 6:33 AM 1/22/96, Gene Rackow wrote: >A problem that I think both of you are overlooking is that the bozo could >just munge his From: line to be what he wants and then the adddress> >is not needed and the subscription needs no approval. ;-( I've used this >method myself several times when I wanted to subscribe a local exploder to >a remote mailing list without having to wait the several weeks for approval >to happen. I don't see a method that is going to stop these bozo's from >spamming the lists. Oh, believe me, I haven't overlooked it. It's a major hassle, but I don't see any way around it short of going to confirmed subscriptions. And that's going to be a major headache for mailing list software authors, list owners, _and_ list subscribers. So far, the cure is worse than the problem, at least for the lists I run. -Brent ----------------------+----------------------------+------------------------ Brent Chapman | Great Circle Associates | 1057 West Dana Street Brent@GreatCircle.COM | http://www.greatcircle.com | Mountain View, CA 94041 ----------------------+----------------------------+------------------------ Internet Tutorials from the Experts! From list-managers-owner Mon Jan 22 16:19:36 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id QAA25252 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 22 Jan 1996 16:04:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from hp_open.open.org (hp_open.open.org [199.2.104.1]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-951221-1) with ESMTP id QAA25244 for ; Mon, 22 Jan 1996 16:03:54 -0800 (PST) Received: (from root@localhost) by hp_open.open.org (8.7/8.7) id QAA22989 for ; Mon, 22 Jan 1996 16:01:50 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 22 Jan 1996 16:01:50 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199601230001.QAA22989@hp_open.open.org> Received: from unknown(199.2.104.151) by hp_open.open.org via smap (V1.3) id sma022985; Mon Jan 22 16:01:42 1996 X-Sender: dan@opengovt.open.org X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Dan Tucker Subject: Re: 3rd party auto-reply mailing list attack Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 09:22 AM 1/22/96 +0100, Brent Chapman wrote: > >Oh, believe me, I haven't overlooked it. It's a major hassle, but I don't >see any way around it short of going to confirmed subscriptions. And >that's going to be a major headache for mailing list software authors, list >owners, _and_ list subscribers. So far, the cure is worse than the >problem, at least for the lists I run. > > >-Brent > I do know of a system that has a confirm feature that they are using with majordomo. It sends a confirmation message to all that attempt to subscribe to a list. For them to subscribe they have to re-subscribe and send a validation code along with it. I am attempting to learn more about it and will post the info as soon as I learn more. -Dan +-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-+ Daniel Tucker dan@open.org From list-managers-owner Tue Jan 23 02:33:33 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id CAA02455 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 23 Jan 1996 02:25:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from felix.dircon.co.uk (felix.dircon.co.uk [193.128.224.10]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id CAA02450 for ; Tue, 23 Jan 1996 02:24:57 -0800 (PST) Received: by felix.dircon.co.uk id AA18034 (5.67b/IDA-1.5 for ); Tue, 23 Jan 1996 10:23:37 GMT Received: from diversity.org.uk(193.128.226.199) by amnesiac via smap (V1.3) id sma017975; Tue Jan 23 10:23:10 1996 From: Nigel Whitfield Date: Tue, 23 Jan 1996 09:32:20 GMT Reply-To: nigel@stonewall.demon.co.uk X-Mailer: Mail User's Shell (7.2.5 10/14/92) To: list-managers@stonewall.demon.co.uk Subject: Winmail.dat and its friends Message-Id: <9601230932.aa19153@fags.stonewall.demon.co.uk> Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk One of the lists that I run has recently started receiving postings from users running Exchange, complete with irritating WINMAIL.DAT uuencoded enclosures, or application/ms-tnef MIME parts. Is there a foolproof way of configuring the exchange client not to send this stuff, or is it as broken as I suspect? I know you can turn of MIME in the control panel, but is that what's resulting in the arguably more offensive UUencoded stuff? My solution so far is to remove posting permission from those people who have done this, and screen each of their messages manually, but this is no good when more than a few people are using Exchange. I could alter the list software to check for this stuff, but I don't really approve of scanning for content in a message. Is there a simpler alternative (like, perhaps, telling people to use a particular font in Exchange to avoid the junk being created in the first place) ? Nigel. -- Nigel Whitfield nigel@diversity.org.uk Digital Diversity nigel@stonewall.demon.co.uk and uk-motss ***** All demon.co.uk sites are independently run internet hosts ***** From list-managers-owner Tue Jan 23 08:03:03 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id HAA17907 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 23 Jan 1996 07:54:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from park.interport.net (park.interport.net [199.184.165.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-951221-1) with ESMTP id HAA17902 for ; Tue, 23 Jan 1996 07:54:39 -0800 (PST) From: jimmy@interport.net Received: from jimmy.port.net (jimmy.port.net [205.161.157.35]) by park.interport.net (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id KAA21337 for ; Tue, 23 Jan 1996 10:53:34 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 23 Jan 1996 10:53:34 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199601231553.KAA21337@park.interport.net> X-Sender: jimmy@interport.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: I need help need your assistance. Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Greetings; I'm interested in creating a mailing list - to discuss the advantages/disavantage of an "internet appliances" and the possibility of having a public Internet access device -. I was wondering does anyone know a school I can contact to create such mailing list or do you have any advice on how I should proceed. Thank you for your assistance. Sincerely; Kenold Pierre-Louis From list-managers-owner Tue Jan 23 17:45:01 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id RAA22125 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 23 Jan 1996 17:30:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from access2.digex.net (access2.digex.net [205.197.245.193]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id RAA22110 for ; Tue, 23 Jan 1996 17:30:10 -0800 (PST) Received: (from asgilman@localhost) by access2.digex.net (8.6.12/8.6.12) id UAA23710 ; for ; Tue, 23 Jan 1996 20:26:07 -0500 From: Al Gilman Message-Id: <199601240126.UAA23710@access2.digex.net> Subject: Re: Winmail.dat and its friends To: nigel@stonewall.demon.co.uk Date: Tue, 23 Jan 1996 20:26:06 -0500 (EST) Cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com In-Reply-To: <9601230932.aa19153@fags.stonewall.demon.co.uk> from "Nigel Whitfield" at Jan 23, 96 09:32:20 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Sounds like another opportunity to excel.........at diplomacy. We had a case where the mail bridge at the LAN level was converting long messages into enclosures. It wasn't anything that the user did with their client. [I believe this was cc:Mail and not uSoft.] A Microsoft-oriented NewsGroup may be a better place to find the Exchange expertise that you need as opposed to an Internet-oriented list such as this. You don't have to supply Microsoft expertise to your Microsoft-using list members. Explain that the list serves a wide variety of users and that the enclosure formats, be they desktop or MIME, are _not_ legible to many of the people reading the list. Add it to your welcome message. Then pump _them_ for the answer. What does one have to do to get a plain text simple message out of their setup? There is a way. It will vary by vendor. Before you have shut down three subscribers, you will likely find one that can figure it out. Al Gilman From list-managers-owner Tue Jan 23 20:15:47 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id UAA01665 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 23 Jan 1996 20:08:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from svcs1.digex.net (svcs1.digex.net [204.91.197.224]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-951221-1) withFrom list-managers-owner Wed Jan 24 07:32:08 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id HAA05669 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 24 Jan 1996 07:20:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from gateway.bose.com (gateway.bose.com [139.68.136.1]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id HAA05650 for ; Wed, 24 Jan 1996 07:20:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from nuno.bose.com by gateway.bose.com (8.6.12/BoseFirewall.1.0) id KAA18715; Wed, 24 Jan 1996 10:19:01 -0500 Received: by nuno.bose.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA18099; Wed, 24 Jan 96 10:20:00 EST From: hannigan@bose.com (Martin Hannigan) Message-Id: <9601241520.AA18099@nuno.bose.com> Subject: Subject: line missing..ack! To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Date: Wed, 24 Jan 1996 10:19:58 -0500 (EST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23+BOSE] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Hi.. Before I posted, I rtfm'd as many as I could find. I have a list setup called "foo-bar". When mail is sent to it no subject line appears. Instead, the subject and date information seem to be comingled among the actual message text. >From unix mail client (elm,mailx,etc) I get no subject line. >From Quickmail (Mac piece 'o *) I get the comingling of data and header. >From PC/Mac Eudora clients I get the comingling of data and header. The mailserver is a Sun MP-690 running SunOS 4.4.3_U1 and Majordomo v1.94. Example aliases entry: foo-bar: "|/usr/apps/bose/adm/majordomo/wrapper resend -h Bose.COM -l foo-bar -s foo-bar-outgoing" foo-bar-outgoing: :include: /usr/apps/bose/adm/majordomo/lists/foo-bar foo-bar-request: /usr/apps/bose/adm/majordomo/wrapper request-answer foo-bar foo-bar-approval: username@mailhost owner-foo-bar: username@mailhost foo-bar-owner: username@mailhost From list-managers-owner Wed Jan 24 08:45:25 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id IAA10762 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 24 Jan 1996 08:34:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from [198.102.244.97] (pb520-ppp.greatcircle.com [198.102.244.97]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id IAA10756; Wed, 24 Jan 1996 08:34:25 -0800 (PST) X-Sender: brent@miles.greatcircle.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 24 Jan 1996 08:34:44 +0100 To: hannigan@bose.com (Martin Hannigan), list-managers@greatcircle.com From: Brent@GreatCircle.COM (Brent Chapman) Subject: Re: Subject: line missing..ack! Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 10:19 AM 1/24/96, Martin Hannigan wrote: >Hi.. > > >Before I posted, I rtfm'd as many as I could find. > >I have a list setup called "foo-bar". When mail is sent to it >no subject line appears. Instead, the subject and date information >seem to be comingled among the actual message text. > >>From unix mail client (elm,mailx,etc) I get no subject line. >>From Quickmail (Mac piece 'o *) I get the comingling of data and header. >>From PC/Mac Eudora clients I get the comingling of data and header. > >The mailserver is a Sun MP-690 running SunOS 4.4.3_U1 and Majordomo >v1.94. I seem to recall that this is a bug in Sun's version of Sendmail. Make sure you've got the latest Sendmail patches from Sun, or better yet, upgrade to the latest version of Sendmail from Berkeley (from ftp.cs.berkeley.edu, I think). -Brent ----------------------+----------------------------+------------------------ Brent Chapman | Great Circle Associates | 1057 West Dana Street Brent@GreatCircle.COM | http://www.greatcircle.com | Mountain View, CA 94041 ----------------------+----------------------------+------------------------ Internet Tutorials from the Experts! From list-managers-owner Wed Jan 24 09:45:01 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id JAA13707 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 24 Jan 1996 09:32:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from tacoma.nwrain.net (tacoma.nwrain.net [204.71.149.1]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id JAA13701 for ; Wed, 24 Jan 1996 09:32:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from p22.y0.nwrain.net by tacoma.nwrain.net with smtp (Smail3.1.28.1 #9) id m0tf92F-000oSmC; Wed, 24 Jan 96 09:31 PST Received: by p22.y0.nwrain.net with Microsoft Mail id <01BAEA3E.FC534EE0@p22.y0.nwrain.net>; Wed, 24 Jan 1996 09:33:14 -0800 Message-ID: <01BAEA3E.FC534EE0@p22.y0.nwrain.net> From: Robert Kapela To: "jimmy@interport.net" , "'Jack Schnapper'" Cc: "List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM" Subject: RE: I need help need your assistance. Date: Wed, 24 Jan 1996 09:31:43 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Jack, You can also try the Spencer-Davis Group at http://www.spencer-davis.com/ ---------- From: Jack Schnapper[SMTP:jjflash@pobox.com] Sent: Tuesday, January 23, 1996 8:06 PM To: jimmy@interport.net Cc: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: I need help need your assistance. At 10:53 AM 1/23/96 -0500, jimmy@interport.net wrote: >Greetings; > I'm interested in creating a mailing list - to discuss the >advantages/disavantage of an "internet appliances" and the possibility of >having a public Internet access device -. > > I was wondering does anyone know a school I can contact to create such >mailing list or do you have any advice on how I should proceed. Thank you >for your assistance. Are you looking for a provider site to host your list? If so, check with pobox.com (I have 2 lists with them; their pricing and service is the best I have found). Jack -------------------------------------------------------------------- jjflash@pobox.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- http://www.pobox.com/~jjflash -------------------------------------------------------------------- "If I am not for myself, who will be for me? If I am only for myself, what am I? If not now, when?" - Hillel -------------------------------------------------------------------- From list-managers-owner Wed Jan 24 19:16:45 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id SAA17822 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 24 Jan 1996 18:43:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from digital.netvoyage.net (digital.netvoyage.net [205.162.154.10]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id RAA29450 for ; Mon, 22 Jan 1996 17:30:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from digital.netvoyage.net (digital.netvoyage.net [205.162.154.10]) by digital.netvoyage.net (8.6.11/8.6.9) with SMTP id RAA27288; Mon, 22 Jan 1996 17:20:04 -0800 Date: Mon, 22 Jan 1996 17:20:02 -0800 (PST) From: Brock Rozen To: Dan Tucker cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: 3rd party auto-reply mailing list attack In-Reply-To: <199601230001.QAA22989@hp_open.open.org> Message-ID: X-URL: http://www.netvoyage.net/~brozen MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Mon, 22 Jan 1996, Dan Tucker wrote: > I do know of a system that has a confirm feature that they are using with > majordomo. It sends a confirmation message to all that attempt to subscribe > to a list. For them to subscribe they have to re-subscribe and send a > validation code along with it. I've seen a similar system, but it wasn't majordomo. All they had to do was reply to the message with the word OK If they had a weird system and couldn't reply to the message but had to send another message or something, they could reply with OK and thus the system knew it was them.... The system I used was listserv@taunivm.tau.ac.il ----------------------------------------------------------------------- | Brock Rozen | Internet: brozen@netvoyage.net | |---------------------------------------------------------------------| | Check out my homepage at http://www.netvoyage.net/~brozen | |---------------------------------------------------------------------| | For automated information on various subjects, send an e-mail to my | | Internet address with SEND HELP on the SUBJECT line. | ----------------------------------------------------------------------- From list-managers-owner Thu Jan 25 03:31:30 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id DAA19659 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 25 Jan 1996 03:17:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from felix.dircon.co.uk (felix.dircon.co.uk [193.128.224.10]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id DAA19652 for ; Thu, 25 Jan 1996 03:17:45 -0800 (PST) Received: by felix.dircon.co.uk id AA15955 (5.67b/IDA-1.5 for ); Thu, 25 Jan 1996 11:16:42 GMT Received: from diversity.org.uk(193.128.226.199) by amnesiac via smap (V1.3) id smac15914; Thu Jan 25 11:16:37 1996 Received: from punt4.demon.co.uk by fags.stonewall.demon.co.uk id ag04394; 25 Jan 96 9:50 GMT Received: from punt-4.mail.demon.net by mailstore for list-managers@stonewall.demon.co.uk id 822562550:19754:0; Thu, 25 Jan 96 09:35:50 GMT Received: from exchange.microsoft.com ([131.107.243.48]) by punt-4.mail.demon.net id aa18883; 25 Jan 96 9:34 GMT Received: by yuri.microsoft.com with Microsoft Exchange (IMC 4.0.736) id <01BAEA6F.81D24320@yuri.microsoft.com>; Wed, 24 Jan 1996 15:20:34 -0800 Message-Id: From: "David Johnson (Exchange)" To: "list-managers@stonewall.demon.co.uk" , "'nigel@stonewall.demon.co.uk'" Subject: RE: Winmail.dat and its friends Date: Wed, 24 Jan 1996 15:20:22 -0800 X-Mailer: Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.736 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk The Windows 95 Exchange client has an option to send TNEF for each recipient in the personal address book. Have the user clear the checkbox labeled, "Always send to this recipient in Microsoft Exchange rich-text format", on the properties for the list's address in his/her address book. David C. Johnson Program Manager - Exchange Product Unit >---------- >From: Nigel Whitfield[SMTP:nigel@stonewall.demon.co.uk] >Sent: Tuesday, January 23, 1996 1:32 AM >To: list-managers@stonewall.demon.co.uk >Subject: Winmail.dat and its friends > >One of the lists that I run has recently started receiving >postings from users running Exchange, complete with irritating >WINMAIL.DAT uuencoded enclosures, or application/ms-tnef MIME >parts. > >Is there a foolproof way of configuring the exchange client not >to send this stuff, or is it as broken as I suspect? I know you >can turn of MIME in the control panel, but is that what's >resulting in the arguably more offensive UUencoded stuff? > >My solution so far is to remove posting permission from those >people who have done this, and screen each of their messages >manually, but this is no good when more than a few people are >using Exchange. > >I could alter the list software to check for this stuff, but I >don't really approve of scanning for content in a message. Is >there a simpler alternative (like, perhaps, telling people to use >a particular font in Exchange to avoid the junk being created in >the first place) ? > >Nigel. > >-- >Nigel Whitfield >nigel@diversity.org.uk Digital >Diversity >nigel@stonewall.demon.co.uk and >uk-motss >***** All demon.co.uk sites are independently run internet hosts >***** > From list-managers-owner Thu Jan 25 09:02:15 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id IAA12748 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 25 Jan 1996 08:52:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from netcomsv.netcom.com (uumail4.netcom.com [163.179.3.54]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id IAA12743 for ; Thu, 25 Jan 1996 08:52:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from znyx.com by netcomsv.netcom.com with SMTP (8.6.12/SMI-4.1) id IAA05038; Thu, 25 Jan 1996 08:50:50 -0800 Received: from alan.znyx.com by znyx.com (5.65/1.35) id AA14135; Thu, 25 Jan 96 09:03:09 -0800 Date: Thu, 25 Jan 96 09:03:09 -0800 Message-Id: <9601251703.AA14135@znyx.com> X-Sender: alan@znyx.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.1.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: list-managers@greatcircle.com From: Alan Deikman Subject: Mystery Forwarder Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Does anyone have a strategy for dealing with this? I got a complaint from a party NOT on my list that they were receiving postings. They are also getting unwanted postings from lists that are not mine. I asked him to send a complete message with headers so that I could trace it, but when he did there was NOTHING that would indicate any system between mine and his that touched the message. Is there any legitimate way for this to happen? Or is there a hacker with malignant intent that has targetted this guy? Regards, -------------------------------- Alan Deikman, ZNYX Corporation alan@znyx.com From list-managers-owner Thu Jan 25 11:25:31 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id LAA23531 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 25 Jan 1996 11:05:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from pnl.gov (relay.pnl.gov [130.20.20.36]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-951221-1) with ESMTP id LAA23505 for ; Thu, 25 Jan 1996 11:05:44 -0800 (PST) From: js_dukelow@ccmail.pnl.gov Received: from ccmail.pnl.gov by pnl.gov (PMDF V4.3-13 #6012) id <01I0FBA4E51C8Y4WSI@pnl.gov>; Thu, 25 Jan 1996 11:03:37 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 25 Jan 1996 10:54 -0800 (PST) Subject: Our first real Spam To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Message-id: <01I0FBAJ0EF28Y4WSI@pnl.gov> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: MESSAGE/RFC822 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Date: Wed, 24 Jan 1996 13:54 -0800 (PST) From: cnotes@cnotes.com To: js_dukelow@ccmail.pnl.gov MIME-version: 1.0 MIME-version: 1.0 Has any one else seen this particular Spam. We have a medium-sized list for professionals involved in risk assessment and risk management. The list is not publically listed (i.e., on PAML, etc.), so we haven't had much trouble with spamming. Best regards. Jim Dukelow Pacific Northwest National Laboratory Richland, WA js_dukelow@pnl.gov ______________________________ Forward Header __________________________________ Subject: Author: cnotes@cnotes.com at -SMTPlink Date: 1/24/96 1:54 PM set mail digest + Join CNI Long Distance - the only FLAT RATE long + distance company supporting Peace, Human Rights, + the Environment, and the fight against AIDS. + Email: longdistance@cnotes.com - we'll send you a + reply within 30 seconds. + http://www.cnotes.com/telecom/cnitelpage.html + For a limited time, new customers receive 100 FREE minutes! From list-managers-owner Thu Jan 25 13:37:43 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id MAA05253 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 25 Jan 1996 12:54:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (mycroft.greatcircle.com [198.102.244.35]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id MAA05237 for ; Thu, 25 Jan 1996 12:54:38 -0800 (PST) Received: by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.10/SMI-4.1/Brent-960123) id MAA27726; Thu, 25 Jan 1996 12:51:01 -0800 Received: from netcom13.netcom.com(192.100.81.125) by mycroft via smap (V1.3mjr) id sma027709; Thu Jan 25 12:50:45 1996 Received: from [129.46.82.92] by netcom13.netcom.com (8.6.12/Netcom) id MAA06536; Thu, 25 Jan 1996 12:51:53 -0800 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: Level Seven Design X-PGP-KeyID-Fprnt: 4AAF00E5 - 30D81F3484E6A83F 6EC8D7F0CAB3D265 X-PGP: http://www-swiss.ai.mit.edu/htbin/pks-extract-key.pl?op=get&search=lsd X-Floppyright: (f)1995 LSD.com _ Unlicensed retransmission prohibited. Date: Thu, 25 Jan 1996 12:51:30 -0800 To: js_dukelow@ccmail.pnl.gov From: Dave Del Torto Subject: Re: Our first real Spam Cc: List Managers List Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk In Reply to the Message wherein it was written: >Has any one else seen this particular Spam. I haven't: anyone else? I'm collecting my favorites, though... :) From list-managers-owner Fri Jan 26 06:47:57 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id GAA04345 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 26 Jan 1996 06:29:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from www.sbaonline.sba.gov (www.sbaonline.sba.gov [199.171.55.3]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id GAA04336 for ; Fri, 26 Jan 1996 06:28:52 -0800 (PST) Received: (from chuda@localhost) by www.sbaonline.sba.gov (8.6.12/8.6.12) id JAA04882; Fri, 26 Jan 1996 09:26:06 -0500 From: Sury Chudamani Message-Id: <199601261426.JAA04882@www.sbaonline.sba.gov> Subject: Load on a Web Server To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Date: Fri, 26 Jan 1996 09:26:05 -0500 (EST) Cc: chuda@www.sbaonline.sba.gov (Sury Chudamani) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Hi: I have majordomo running on a Sparc 20 with small mailing groups. I was recently asked to create a group for 500 members with moderate traffic (whatever that means ??) The SUN is used as a WEB SERVER so I am curious about how much of a load this would pose ie. slow down httpd stuff ?? The smaller majordomo groupsthat I currently have are doing OK, because of limted traffic. thanks chuda -- ===================================================================== Sury Chudamani (Sytel) Phone : (202) 205 - 6399 U.S. Small Business Administration E-Mail: chuda@www.sbaonline.sba.gov ===================================================================== From list-managers-owner Fri Jan 26 07:24:36 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id HAA05590 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 26 Jan 1996 07:10:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from hursley.ibm.com (mersey.hursley.ibm.com [193.129.184.10]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id HAA05572 for ; Fri, 26 Jan 1996 07:10:18 -0800 (PST) Received: by hursley.ibm.com (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA82744; Fri, 26 Jan 1996 15:09:09 GMT Date: Fri, 26 Jan 1996 15:09:09 GMT Message-Id: <9601261509.AA82744@hursley.ibm.com> From: ""Sean Davies"" Reply-To: Sean@hursley.ibm.com X-Mailer: Z-Mail (3.2.0 06sep94) To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Digests Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Can anyone help me ? I have just set up a new internet mailing list using majordomo V1.93 I am having difficulties creating the digests... My alias entries are as follows .. # sample owner-sample: sean@hursley.ibm.com sample-approval: sean@hursley.ibm.com sample: "|/u/majordom/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -R -l sample -f owner-sample -h hursley.ibm.com -s sample-outgoing" sample-digest: sample owner-sample-outgoing: owner-sample sample-outgoing::include:/u/majordom/lists/sample, "|/u/majordom/w rapper digest -r -C -l sample-digest sample-digest-outgoing", "|/u /majordom/wrapper archive2.pl -a -d -f /u/majordom/archives/sample/ibm-ja va-test.archive" owner-sample-digest-outgoing: owner-sample sample-digest-outgoing::include:/u/majordom/lists/sample-digest sample-request: "|/u/majordom/wrapper majordomo -l sample" owner-sample-request: owner-sample owner-sample-digest-request: owner-sample sample-digest-request: "|/u/majordom/wrapper majordomo -l sample-d igest" My majordomo.cf entry for $digest_work_dir = '/afs/afs.hursley.ibm.com/u/majordom/digests I have a sample-digest list in lists and sample-digest directory in digests. My archives are being generated OK and each posting is going into the digests/sample-digest directory as 001 002 003 etc.... But how do I make the digests ??? MKDIGEST sample-digest fails saying there are no messages ?? -- Sean Davies Workstation and Network Support +-----------------------------------+ IBM UK Laboratories Ltd. | VNET: sean@hursley | Hursley Park, | Internet: sean@hursley.ibm.com | Winchester, Hants, +-----------------------------------+ England SO21 2JN Internal: 7-248974 International: +44 962-818974 From list-managers-owner Fri Jan 26 11:07:53 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id LAA12606 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 26 Jan 1996 11:06:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from access5.digex.net (access5.digex.net [205.197.245.196]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id LAA12601 for ; Fri, 26 Jan 1996 11:06:46 -0800 (PST) Received: (from asgilman@localhost) by access5.digex.net (8.6.12/8.6.12) id OAA17374 ; for ; Fri, 26 Jan 1996 14:04:53 -0500 From: Al Gilman Message-Id: <199601261904.OAA17374@access5.digex.net> Subject: Re: Mystery Forwarder To: alan@znyx.com (Alan Deikman) Date: Fri, 26 Jan 1996 14:04:52 -0500 (EST) Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: <9601251703.AA14135@znyx.com> from "Alan Deikman" at Jan 25, 96 09:03:09 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk From: Alan Deikman Does anyone have a strategy for dealing with this? I got a complaint from a party NOT on my list that they were receiving postings. They are also getting unwanted postings from lists that are not mine. I asked him to send a complete message with headers so that I could trace it, but when he did there was NOTHING that would indicate any system between mine and his that touched the message. Is there any legitimate way for this to happen? Or is there a hacker with malignant intent that has targetted this guy? There may be useful evidence in a log maintained by the MTA from which the complaining party receives their mail. Also be warned that MUAs vary a lot in what they can/will do to preserve headers for you. Third-party mailbombing hacks are not unheard of. Including subscribing a victim to megalists. This could even, I suppose, be a variant where messages addressed to legitimate subscribers are intercepted and bcc'd to the victim. That would leave no trace in the subscription info of the list used. Al Gilman From list-managers-owner Fri Jan 26 11:23:26 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id LAA12738 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 26 Jan 1996 11:08:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from digital.netvoyage.net (digital.netvoyage.net [205.162.154.10]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id LAA12733 for ; Fri, 26 Jan 1996 11:08:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from digital.netvoyage.net (digital.netvoyage.net [205.162.154.10]) by digital.netvoyage.net (8.6.11/8.6.9) with SMTP id LAA24107 for ; Fri, 26 Jan 1996 11:06:13 -0800 Date: Fri, 26 Jan 1996 11:06:12 -0800 (PST) From: Brock Rozen To: List Managers Subject: Net Problems Message-ID: X-URL: http://www.netvoyage.net/~brozen MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Is anybody else experiencing problems with mail to AOL and/or the east coast and to Europe? I've been experiencing more problems than normal and was wondering if it could possibly be because of the weather on the east coast... ----------------------------------------------------------------------- | Brock Rozen | Internet: brozen@netvoyage.net | |---------------------------------------------------------------------| | Check out my homepage at http://www.netvoyage.net/~brozen | |---------------------------------------------------------------------| | For automated information on various subjects, send an e-mail to my | | Internet address with SEND HELP on the SUBJECT line. | ----------------------------------------------------------------------- From list-managers-owner Fri Jan 26 12:26:18 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id LAA15553 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 26 Jan 1996 11:57:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from tango.rahul.net (tango.rahul.net [192.160.13.5]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id LAA15548 for ; Fri, 26 Jan 1996 11:57:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from bolero.rahul.net by tango.rahul.net with SMTP id AA24594 (5.67b8/IDA-1.5 for ); Fri, 26 Jan 1996 11:54:39 -0800 Received: from jive.rahul.net by bolero.rahul.net with SMTP id AA15175 (5.67b8/IDA-1.5); Fri, 26 Jan 1996 11:54:37 -0800 From: Steve Portigal Received: by jive.rahul.net (5.67b8/jive-a2i-1.0) id AA01654; Fri, 26 Jan 1996 11:54:34 -0800 Message-Id: <199601261954.AA01654@jive.rahul.net> Subject: Re: Net Problems To: brozen@netvoyage.net (Brock Rozen) Date: Fri, 26 Jan 1996 11:54:32 -0800 (PST) Cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com In-Reply-To: from "Brock Rozen" at Jan 26, 96 11:06:12 am Organization: GVO - Interface Design Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk AOL is experiencing delays, they say. I have heard from people who aren't getting their digest, but AOL describes it as a delay and expects it to be fixed today. -- | steve portigal G V O | user interface dude | culturally aware interface design From list-managers-owner Fri Jan 26 12:39:32 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id MAA17433 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 26 Jan 1996 12:36:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from aspensys (aspensys.aspensys.com [198.77.70.104]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id MAA17428 for ; Fri, 26 Jan 1996 12:36:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtpinet.aspensys.com (smtpgate.aspensys.com) by aspensys (5.0/SMI-SVR4) id AA01023; Fri, 26 Jan 1996 15:29:08 +0500 Received: from ccMail by smtpinet.aspensys.com (SMTPLINK V2.10.08) id AA822701399; Fri, 26 Jan 96 15:33:36 EST Date: Fri, 26 Jan 96 15:33:36 EST From: "Jim Meritt" Message-Id: <9600268227.AA822701399@smtpinet.aspensys.com> To: brozen@netvoyage.net, Steve Portigal Cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re[2]: Net Problems Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I just checked. None of the mail gateways listed in their DNS are accepting email at this time. Jim ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: Re: Net Problems Author: Steve Portigal at SMTPINET Date: 1/26/96 4:05 PM AOL is experiencing delays, they say. I have heard from people who aren't getting their digest, but AOL describes it as a delay and expects it to be fixed today. -- | steve portigal G V O | user interface dude | culturally aware interface design From list-managers-owner Fri Jan 26 13:37:45 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id NAA19314 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 26 Jan 1996 13:09:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from emout04.mail.aol.com (emout04.mail.aol.com [198.81.10.12]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id NAA19282 for ; Fri, 26 Jan 1996 13:09:17 -0800 (PST) From: PMDAtropos@aol.com Received: by emout04.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id QAA29633; Fri, 26 Jan 1996 16:08:09 -0500 Date: Fri, 26 Jan 1996 16:08:09 -0500 Message-ID: <960126160807_207349947@emout04.mail.aol.com> To: jmeritt@smtpinet.aspensys.com, brozen@netvoyage.net, stevep@rahul.net cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: Re[2]: Net Problems Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk In a message dated 96-01-26 15:47:12 EST, jmeritt@smtpinet.aspensys.com (Jim Meritt) writes: >I just checked. None of the mail gateways listed in their DNS are accepting >email at this time. We are accepting connections (I've tested this from two separate hosts) but they seem to go in spurts. The mail techs are adding several new machines today and have been reconfiguring the current hosts for the past several days. As far as I'm aware, the goal is still to have the changes done by tonight. -- __ David B. O'Donnell (atropos@aol.net, PMDAtropos@aol.com, Atropos@gnn.com) \/ AOL Internet Feedback/Response/Information Team Manager, LISTSERV Manager Tel. 703/453-4000 x4255 FAX 703/453-4102 Pager 800/759-8888 PIN 128-5338 WWW: http://www.cais.com/atropos/ "The spam stops here." From list-managers-owner Sat Jan 27 10:08:00 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id JAA11890 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 27 Jan 1996 09:59:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from svcs1.digex.net (svcs1.digex.net [204.91.197.224]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id JAA11876 for ; Sat, 27 Jan 1996 09:59:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from jjflash.digex.net (dyn000326.belt.digex.net [206.181.17.72]) by svcs1.digex.net (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id MAA05098 for ; Sat, 27 Jan 1996 12:57:59 -0500 Message-Id: <2.2.32.19960127175717.006ced40@access.digex.net> X-Sender: jjflash@access.digex.net (Unverified) X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 27 Jan 1996 12:57:17 -0500 To: List Managers From: Jack Schnapper Subject: Consensus Sought on Sigs Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk What is the consensus on people using sigs when posting a message to a list? Thanks, Jack -------------------------------------------------------------------- jjflash@pobox.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- http://www.pobox.com/~jjflash -------------------------------------------------------------------- "If I am not for myself, who will be for me? If I am only for myself, what am I? If not now, when?" - Hillel -------------------------------------------------------------------- From list-managers-owner Sat Jan 27 10:13:19 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id JAA11827 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 27 Jan 1996 09:58:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from svcs1.digex.net (svcs1.digex.net [204.91.197.224]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id JAA11813 for ; Sat, 27 Jan 1996 09:58:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from jjflash.digex.net (dyn000326.belt.digex.net [206.181.17.72]) by svcs1.digex.net (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id MAA05079 for ; Sat, 27 Jan 1996 12:56:57 -0500 Message-Id: <2.2.32.19960127175615.006c5650@access.digex.net> X-Sender: jjflash@access.digex.net (Unverified) X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 27 Jan 1996 12:56:15 -0500 To: List Managers From: Jack Schnapper Subject: Majordomo File Retrieval Wuestion Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Is there a way (and if so, what is it) for a listmember to retrieve the original welcome message that they received when they joined one of my majordomo lists? Also, is there a way that I can re-send this message to all members from time-to-time? The reason I am asking this is because I regularly get messages from members of my lists asking to be removed or how they can remove themselves. Naturally, majordomo had sent this info to them when they joined, but they either didn't read it or didn't keep it. Thanks, Jack -------------------------------------------------------------------- jjflash@pobox.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- http://www.pobox.com/~jjflash -------------------------------------------------------------------- "If I am not for myself, who will be for me? If I am only for myself, what am I? If not now, when?" - Hillel -------------------------------------------------------------------- From list-managers-owner Sat Jan 27 10:18:27 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id JAA11634 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 27 Jan 1996 09:54:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from svcs1.digex.net (svcs1.digex.net [204.91.197.224]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id JAA11621 for ; Sat, 27 Jan 1996 09:54:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from jjflash.digex.net (dyn000326.belt.digex.net [206.181.17.72]) by svcs1.digex.net (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id MAA05051 for ; Sat, 27 Jan 1996 12:53:15 -0500 Message-Id: <2.2.32.19960127175234.006729a4@access.digex.net> X-Sender: jjflash@access.digex.net (Unverified) X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 27 Jan 1996 12:52:34 -0500 To: List Managers From: Jack Schnapper Subject: Re: Net Problems Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 11:06 AM 1/26/96 -0800, Brock Rozen wrote: >Is anybody else experiencing problems with mail to AOL and/or the east >coast and to Europe? > >I've been experiencing more problems than normal and was wondering if it >could possibly be because of the weather on the east coast... I have been experiencing the same problems. It is especially irritating to me at this time as I just began a new list and have gotten many "delivery error" messages for the AOL people I have subbed (I manually entered many names from a hand-written list I was given by someone who collected addresses of interested people). Jack -------------------------------------------------------------------- jjflash@pobox.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- http://www.pobox.com/~jjflash -------------------------------------------------------------------- "If I am not for myself, who will be for me? If I am only for myself, what am I? If not now, when?" - Hillel -------------------------------------------------------------------- From list-managers-owner Sat Jan 27 11:07:49 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id LAA17229 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 27 Jan 1996 11:02:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from haven.uchicago.edu (haven.uchicago.edu [128.135.12.3]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id LAA17189 for ; Sat, 27 Jan 1996 11:02:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from woodlawn.uchicago.edu (root@woodlawn.uchicago.edu [128.135.12.9]) by haven.uchicago.edu (8.6.12/8.6.4) with ESMTP id MAA25768; Sat, 27 Jan 1996 12:56:27 -0600 Received: from woodlawn.uchicago.edu (csdayton@localhost.uchicago.edu [127.0.0.1]) by woodlawn.uchicago.edu (8.7.1/8.7.2) with ESMTP id NAA08322; Sat, 27 Jan 1996 13:00:40 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199601271900.NAA08322@woodlawn.uchicago.edu> In-reply-to: Jack Schnapper's message of Sat, 27 Jan 1996 12:56:15 -0500 To: Jack Schnapper cc: List Managers Subject: Re: Majordomo File Retrieval Wuestion Reply-To: csdayton@midway.uchicago.edu References: <2.2.32.19960127175615.006c5650@access.digex.net> Date: Sat, 27 Jan 1996 13:00:39 CST From: Soren Dayton Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk the majordomo list might be a better place for this question Soren From list-managers-owner Sat Jan 27 11:37:51 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id LAA19613 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 27 Jan 1996 11:37:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from ds1.gl.umbc.edu (ds1.gl.umbc.edu [130.85.3.11]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id LAA19608 for ; Sat, 27 Jan 1996 11:37:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from umbc8.umbc.edu (imitni1@f-umbc8.umbc.edu [130.85.3.8]) by ds1.gl.umbc.edu (8.6.12/8.6.9) with ESMTP id OAA06775 for ; Sat, 27 Jan 1996 14:35:51 -0500 Received: (imitni1@localhost) by umbc8.umbc.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/8.6.9) id OAA10786; Sat, 27 Jan 1996 14:35:53 -0500 Date: Sat, 27 Jan 1996 14:35:53 -0500 (EST) From: "mitnick ian ( bs ifsm)" X-Sender: imitni1@umbc8.umbc.edu To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk i would like not to get this list or email or mail ian at imitni1@umbc.edu From list-managers-owner Sat Jan 27 11:48:14 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id LAA18941 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 27 Jan 1996 11:25:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from linden.fortnet.org (linden.fortnet.org [199.45.144.10]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-951221-1) with ESMTP id LAA18935 for ; Sat, 27 Jan 1996 11:25:05 -0800 (PST) Received: (from phredo@localhost) by linden.fortnet.org (8.7.2/8.7.2) id MAA23580; Sat, 27 Jan 1996 12:25:45 -0700 (MST) Date: Sat, 27 Jan 1996 12:25:44 -0600 (MDT) From: "Blaine E. Thompson" Subject: Re: Consensus Sought on Sigs To: Jack Schnapper cc: List Managers In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.19960127175717.006ced40@access.digex.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Usually 4 lines is proper netiquette. Blaine (phredo@fortnet.org) On Sat, 27 Jan 1996, Jack Schnapper wrote: > What is the consensus on people using sigs when posting a message to a list? > > Thanks, > Jack > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > jjflash@pobox.com > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > http://www.pobox.com/~jjflash > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > "If I am not for myself, who will be for me? > If I am only for myself, what am I? > If not now, when?" > - Hillel > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > From list-managers-owner Sat Jan 27 11:52:53 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id LAA19523 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 27 Jan 1996 11:34:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.crl.com (mail.crl.com [165.113.1.22]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id LAA19518 for ; Sat, 27 Jan 1996 11:34:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from 165.113.1.22 (crl7.crl.com) by mail.crl.com with SMTP id AA27165 (5.65c/IDA-1.5 for ); Sat, 27 Jan 1996 11:30:42 -0800 Message-Id: <199601271930.AA27165@mail.crl.com> X-Sender: jfh@165.113.1.22 X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 27 Jan 1996 11:33:13 -0800 To: From: Jack Hamilton Subject: Re: Consensus Sought on Sigs Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 12:57 PM 1/27/96 -0500, Jack Schnapper wrote: >What is the consensus on people using sigs when posting a message to a list? > >Thanks, >Jack >-------------------------------------------------------------------- > jjflash@pobox.com >-------------------------------------------------------------------- > http://www.pobox.com/~jjflash >-------------------------------------------------------------------- >"If I am not for myself, who will be for me? > If I am only for myself, what am I? > If not now, when?" > - Hillel >-------------------------------------------------------------------- They shouldn't be as long as yours. Three or four lines max. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Jack Hamilton jfh@acm.org Sacramento, California, USA kd6ttl@n0ary From list-managers-owner Sat Jan 27 12:07:56 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id MAA20782 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 27 Jan 1996 12:03:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from village.ios.com (village.ios.com [198.4.75.49]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id MAA20777 for ; Sat, 27 Jan 1996 12:02:56 -0800 (PST) Received: (from gsp@localhost) by village.ios.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id OAA24521; Sat, 27 Jan 1996 14:55:24 -0500 Date: Sat, 27 Jan 1996 14:55:24 -0500 (EST) From: Daniel Pfarrer To: "Blaine E. Thompson" cc: Jack Schnapper , List Managers Subject: Re: Consensus Sought on Sigs In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Sat, 27 Jan 1996, Blaine E. Thompson wrote: > Usually 4 lines is proper netiquette. Well, I doubled that, to make it look like a business card. $**************************************************************************$ * Daniel Pfarrer (DP108) SBA: daniel.pfarrer@sbaonline.gov * * CEO & System Administrator CompuServe: 71324.212@compuserve.com * * of GSP Services, Inc. Sys Admin: admin@gsp.com * * Located in Washington, DC, USA Business: dpfarrer@gsp.com * * For more info, e-mail info@gsp.com gsp@village.ios.com * * "Balance the Budget!" WWW: http://village.ios.com/~gsp/ * $**************************************************************************$ From list-managers-owner Sat Jan 27 13:22:57 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id NAA23471 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 27 Jan 1996 13:21:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from zoom.bga.com (zoom.bga.com [198.3.118.20]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id NAA23462 for ; Sat, 27 Jan 1996 13:21:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from shlomi.bga.com (apm0-16.realtime.com [204.181.162.16]) by zoom.bga.com (8.6.12/8.6.10) with SMTP id PAA01288 for ; Sat, 27 Jan 1996 15:20:33 -0600 Message-Id: <199601272120.PAA01288@zoom.bga.com> X-Sender: shlomi@bga.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 27 Jan 1996 15:20:03 -0600 To: List Managers From: Shlomi Harif Subject: Re: Consensus Sought on Sigs Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Blaine wrote: >Usually 4 lines is proper netiquette. >>Jack asked: >> What is the consensus on people using sigs when posting a message to a list? I don't know of a _consensus_, but someone with a large .sig is going to have everyone they send to ticked off at them all the time... ;-} Your .sig violates Blaine's rule, and mine does as well. I suggest one as long as it needs to be, and no more. If anything, I find more of a problem with people replying to e-mail and including all the previous headers and _other people's_ sigs than one person's individual one... Shlomi Harif (sig follows) -------------------------------------------------- WebSource, Inc. Phone: (800)WebSRC-1 Austin, TX Fax: (512)837-2090 E-mail: shlomi@websrc.com Web: www.websrc.com Creating Revenue-Generating Opportunities on the Internet -------------------------------------------------- From list-managers-owner Sat Jan 27 14:13:58 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id NAA26042 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 27 Jan 1996 13:55:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from SYSWRK.UCIS.Dal.Ca (syswrk.UCIS.Dal.Ca [129.173.2.108]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-951221-1) with ESMTP id NAA26022 for ; Sat, 27 Jan 1996 13:55:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from AC.Dal.Ca by SYSWRK.UCIS.DAL.CA (PMDF V4.3-13 #6307) id <01I0II8I9MDC007S8E@SYSWRK.UCIS.DAL.CA>; Sat, 27 Jan 1996 17:54:25 -0400 Received: from biome.bio.dfo.ca ("port 3321"@biome.BIO.dfo.ca) by AC.DAL.CA (PMDF V4.3-13 #6307) id <01I0II7YU3HC0017D8@AC.DAL.CA>; Sat, 27 Jan 1996 17:54:03 -0400 Received: by biome.bio.dfo.ca (931110.SGI/931108.SGI.ANONFTP) for @ac.dal.ca:List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM id AA05175; Sat, 27 Jan 96 17:51:14 -0400 Date: Sat, 27 Jan 1996 17:51:13 -0400 (AST) From: bill@biome.bio.dfo.ca (Bill Silvert) Subject: Re: Consensus Sought on Sigs In-reply-to: <2.2.32.19960127175717.006ced40@access.digex.net> from "Jack Schnapper" at Jan 27, 96 12:57:17 pm To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM (List Managers) Message-id: <9601272151.AA05175@biome.bio.dfo.ca> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >What is the consensus on people using sigs when posting a message to a list? I agree with the 4-line maximum, but a more important point is that the list owner should not have long header files on all messages. On one list I know, the header file is so long that you have to go to the third screen to start reading the message! >-------------------------------------------------------------------- >"If I am not for myself, who will be for me? > If I am only for myself, what am I? > If not now, when?" > - Hillel >-------------------------------------------------------------------- Too long for a signature, but good questions. Bill -- Bill Silvert, Habitat Ecology Section, Habitat Science Division Bedford Institute of Oceanography, P. O. Box 1006 Dartmouth, Nova Scotia, CANADA B2Y 4A2 HED runs a WWW server at URL=http://hed.bio.dfo.ca From list-managers-owner Sat Jan 27 14:43:45 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id OAA27727 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 27 Jan 1996 14:26:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (mycroft.greatcircle.com [198.102.244.35]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id OAA27720 for ; Sat, 27 Jan 1996 14:26:28 -0800 (PST) Received: by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.10/SMI-4.1/Brent-960123) id OAA05512; Sat, 27 Jan 1996 14:22:54 -0800 Received: from unknown(148.59.2.1) by mycroft via smap (V1.3mjr) id sma005504; Sat Jan 27 14:21:46 1996 Received: (from scs@localhost) by lokkur.dexter.mi.us (8.7.3/8.7.3) id RAA06883; Sat, 27 Jan 1996 17:22:01 -0500 (EST) To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Path: lokkur.dexter.mi.us!not-for-mail From: scs@lokkur.dexter.mi.us (Steve Simmons) Newsgroups: local.list-managers Subject: Re: Consensus Sought on Sigs Date: 27 Jan 1996 17:22:01 -0500 Organization: Inland Sea Lines: 37 Distribution: local Message-ID: <4ee8i9$6mt@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> References: <199601272120.PAA01288@zoom.bga.com> Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Jack asked: > What is the consensus on people using sigs when posting a message to a list? Blaine wrote: >Usually 4 lines is proper netiquette. Yes. Shlomi Harif writes: >Your .sig violates Blaine's rule, and mine does as well. I suggest one as >long as it needs to be, and no more. >(sig follows) >-------------------------------------------------- >WebSource, Inc. Phone: (800)WebSRC-1 >Austin, TX Fax: (512)837-2090 >E-mail: shlomi@websrc.com Web: www.websrc.com > Creating Revenue-Generating > Opportunities on the Internet >-------------------------------------------------- Since whining was invited :-), IMHO your signature should drop the bounding lines (silly), the return address (already all over your mail and postings), and merge the two lines of blatent advertising into one. Four lines. Four. I don't care if it looks like a business card, I don't want to see it on everything you send. If you want to send stuff like that, put it into X-headers so people can filter it. A four line sig follows. Count 'em, four. -- `DOS is Protestant, or even Calvinistic. It allows free interpretation of scripture, demands difficult personal decisions, imposes a subtle hermeneutics upon the user, and takes for granted the idea that not all can reach salvation.' -- Umberto Eco, in "Espresso," September 30, 1994. From list-managers-owner Sat Jan 27 15:23:53 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id OAA29388 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 27 Jan 1996 14:54:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from svcs1.digex.net (svcs1.digex.net [204.91.197.224]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id OAA29383 for ; Sat, 27 Jan 1996 14:54:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from jjflash.digex.net ([206.181.171.48]) by svcs1.digex.net (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id RAA14486 for ; Sat, 27 Jan 1996 17:53:29 -0500 Message-Id: <2.2.32.19960127225211.006ce5b0@access.digex.net> X-Sender: jjflash@access.digex.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 27 Jan 1996 17:52:11 -0500 To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM (List Managers) From: Jack Schnapper Subject: Re: Consensus Sought on Sigs Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Uncle!! :-) Okay, I have seen the light! See my new, changed, 4 line sig. Thanks for everyone's input. Jack Jack Schnapper "If I am not for myself, who will be for me? jjflash@pobox.com If I am only for myself, what am I? http://www.pobox.com/~jjflash If not now, when?" - Hillel From list-managers-owner Sat Jan 27 15:35:41 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id PAA29856 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 27 Jan 1996 15:05:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from server.postmodern.com (server.postmodern.com [199.172.54.54]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id PAA29851 for ; Sat, 27 Jan 1996 15:05:10 -0800 (PST) Received: (from mcb@localhost) by server.postmodern.com (8.6.10/8.6.10-mcb-951019) id PAA03880 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Sat, 27 Jan 1996 15:04:50 -0800 Message-Id: <199601272304.PAA03880@server.postmodern.com> From: mcb@postmodern.com (Michael C. Berch) Date: Sat, 27 Jan 1996 15:04:50 +0000 In-Reply-To: <4ee8i9$6mt@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> X-Mailer: Mail User's Shell (7.2.5 10/14/92) To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: Consensus Sought on Sigs Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > Blaine wrote: > > >Usually 4 lines is proper netiquette. > > Yes. Absolutely. A long signature makes you look like a complete newbie; if we wanted to read your business card, we'll find it on your home page, thanks. Here's a hint: the longer one has been on the Net, the shorter one's sig tends to be. Many old-timers are able to keep it to one line. I use a 3-line sig for personal mail: -- Michael C. Berch mcb@postmodern.com and a 4-line sig for business/professional mail: -- Michael C. Berch [Business or professional "hat" goes here] mcb@postmodern.com The "--" is not strictly necessary but it's in some old RFC as a signature indicator in case some software wants to strip it off for whatever reason. It's probably OK to add a URL these day, which can probably share a line with your e-mail address. But really, I have no interest in looking at rows of asterisks, ASCII graphics, snail-mail addresses, voicemail numbers, political affiliations, names of children or pets, business slogans, etc. There's a place for all of those -- the World Wide Web, on your home page. > A four line sig follows. Count 'em, four. > -- > `DOS is Protestant, or even Calvinistic. It allows free interpretation of > scripture, demands difficult personal decisions, imposes a subtle hermeneutics > upon the user, and takes for granted the idea that not all can reach > salvation.' -- Umberto Eco, in "Espresso," September 30, 1994. Well, five, actually, counting the "--". :-) -- Michael C. Berch mcb@postmodern.com From list-managers-owner Sat Jan 27 16:08:05 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id QAA03094 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 27 Jan 1996 16:03:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from svcs1.digex.net (svcs1.digex.net [204.91.197.224]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id QAA03087 for ; Sat, 27 Jan 1996 16:03:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from jjflash.digex.net ([206.181.171.48]) by svcs1.digex.net (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id TAA15126 for ; Sat, 27 Jan 1996 19:02:24 -0500 Message-Id: <2.2.32.19960128000058.006d284c@access.digex.net> X-Sender: jjflash@access.digex.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 27 Jan 1996 19:00:58 -0500 To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM (List Managers) From: Jack Schnapper Subject: Re: Consensus Sought on Sigs Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Well, I just saw that I screwed up my attemp at my 4 line sig :-( I think I have it fixed now. Sorry for the inconvenience. Jack Jack Schnapper "If I am not for myself, who will be for me? jjflash@pobox.com If I am only for myself, what am I? If not now, when?" http://www.pobox.com/~jjflash - Hillel From list-managers-owner Sat Jan 27 16:23:02 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id QAA03419 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 27 Jan 1996 16:11:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from sol.wvs.com (sol.wvs.com [204.247.80.10]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id QAA03414 for ; Sat, 27 Jan 1996 16:11:19 -0800 (PST) Received: by sol.wvs.com (5.x/SMI-SVR4) id AA03827; Sat, 27 Jan 1996 16:11:00 -0800 Received: (from news@localhost) by zorch.sf-bay.org (8.6.11/8.6.9) id QAA23931 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Sat, 27 Jan 1996 16:06:39 -0800 Newsgroups: zorch.lists.list-managers Path: zorch.sf-bay.org!scott From: scott@zorch.sf-bay.org (Scott Hazen Mueller) Subject: Re: Consensus Sought on Sigs Distribution: zorch Reply-To: scott@zorch.sf-bay.org Organization: At Home; Salida, CA Message-Id: References: <199601272304.PAA03880@server.postmodern.com> X-Nntp-Posting-Host: localhost.sf-bay.org Date: Sun, 28 Jan 1996 00:06:34 GMT Apparently-To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk In an article mcb@postmodern.com (Michael C. Berch) writes: >I use a 3-line sig for personal mail: >and a 4-line sig for business/professional mail: Shoot, I've got more sigs than I've got hats. One for each newsgroup I moderate (2 lines each), one for each mailing list I run (2 lines each), a one-liner for personal mail, a two-liner with contact info for real-world correspondents who might need phone number or snail-mail address, one for work, and a moby sig with everything in it that I never use because it looks boastful. \scott From list-managers-owner Sat Jan 27 17:38:33 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id RAA07384 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 27 Jan 1996 17:24:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from village.ios.com (village.ios.com [198.4.75.49]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id RAA07379 for ; Sat, 27 Jan 1996 17:24:34 -0800 (PST) Received: (from gsp@localhost) by village.ios.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id UAA28918; Sat, 27 Jan 1996 20:17:12 -0500 Date: Sat, 27 Jan 1996 20:17:09 -0500 (EST) From: Daniel Pfarrer To: Jack Schnapper cc: List Managers Subject: Re: Consensus Sought on Sigs In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.19960127225211.006ce5b0@access.digex.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Actually, you need to delete some of the spaces, it came as 7 lines on my screen (in PINE). On Sat, 27 Jan 1996, Jack Schnapper wrote: > Uncle!! :-) > > Okay, I have seen the light! See my new, changed, 4 line sig. > > Thanks for everyone's input. > > Jack > > Jack Schnapper "If I am not for myself, who will > be for me? > jjflash@pobox.com If I am only for myself, what > am I? > > http://www.pobox.com/~jjflash If not now, when?" > - Hillel > > $**************************************************************************$ * Daniel Pfarrer (DP108) SBA: daniel.pfarrer@sbaonline.gov * * CEO & System Administrator CompuServe: 71324.212@compuserve.com * * of GSP Services, Inc. Sys Admin: admin@gsp.com * * Located in Washington, DC, USA Business: dpfarrer@gsp.com * * For more info, e-mail info@gsp.com gsp@village.ios.com * * "Balance the Budget!" WWW: http://village.ios.com/~gsp/ * $**************************************************************************$ From list-managers-owner Sat Jan 27 17:53:10 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id RAA08593 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 27 Jan 1996 17:48:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from village.ios.com (village.ios.com [198.4.75.49]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id RAA08587 for ; Sat, 27 Jan 1996 17:48:27 -0800 (PST) Received: (from gsp@localhost) by village.ios.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id UAA01203; Sat, 27 Jan 1996 20:41:05 -0500 Date: Sat, 27 Jan 1996 20:41:05 -0500 (EST) From: Daniel Pfarrer To: List Managers Mailing List Subject: Re: Consensus Sought on Sigs In-Reply-To: <199601272304.PAA03880@server.postmodern.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Well, I make my .sig look like a business card, since most of the e-mail I send is for business, and it's hard to change your .sig file in pine for each piece of mail. On Sat, 27 Jan 1996, Michael C. Berch wrote: > Absolutely. A long signature makes you look like a complete newbie; > if we wanted to read your business card, we'll find it on your home > page, thanks. Here's a hint: the longer one has been on the Net, the > shorter one's sig tends to be. Many old-timers are able to keep it to > one line. ... > and a 4-line sig for business/professional mail: $**************************************************************************$ * Daniel Pfarrer (DP108) SBA: daniel.pfarrer@sbaonline.gov * * CEO & System Administrator CompuServe: 71324.212@compuserve.com * * of GSP Services, Inc. Sys Admin: admin@gsp.com * * Located in Washington, DC, USA Business: dpfarrer@gsp.com * * For more info, e-mail info@gsp.com gsp@village.ios.com * * "Balance the Budget!" WWW: http://village.ios.com/~gsp/ * $**************************************************************************$ From list-managers-owner Sat Jan 27 18:05:29 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id RAA08696 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 27 Jan 1996 17:51:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from big486.ed-com.com (big486.ed-com.com [38.253.238.200]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id RAA08683 for ; Sat, 27 Jan 1996 17:51:31 -0800 (PST) Received: by big486.ed-com.com with Microsoft Exchange (IMC 4.1.611) id <01BAECF9.FBD9D980@big486.ed-com.com>; Sat, 27 Jan 1996 20:56:52 -0500 Message-ID: From: Ed Woodrick To: "list-managers@greatcircle.com" Subject: Re: 3rd party auto-reply mailing list attack Date: Sat, 27 Jan 1996 20:56:50 -0500 X-Mailer: Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.1.611 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="---- =_NextPart_000_01BAECF9.FBDFF400" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. Contact your mail administrator for information about upgrading your reader to a version that supports MIME. ------ =_NextPart_000_01BAECF9.FBDFF400 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Brock, Here's one of the subscription replies that I got from one of the = listserv lists. It goes into pretty good detail of how it handles the = verification and the time frames that it implements. I've also tagged = one of their sig lines that the list adds to all messages at the bottom. The way they are setup, you pretty much have to be where your address = says you are from, for you to get subscribed to the list.=20 Ed Woodrick ---------- From: Brock Rozen[SMTP:brozen@netvoyage.net] Sent: Monday, January 22, 1996 8:20 PM To: Dan Tucker Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: 3rd party auto-reply mailing list attack I've seen a similar system, but it wasn't majordomo. All they had to do was reply to the message with the word OK If they had a weird system and couldn't reply to the message but had to=20 send another message or something, they could reply with OK = and thus the system knew it was them.... The system I used was listserv@taunivm.tau.ac.il ---------- From: L-Soft list server at PEACH.EASE.LSOFT.COM = (1.8b)[SMTP:LISTSERV@PEACH.EASE.LSOFT.COM] Sent: Monday, January 08, 1996 11:18 PM To: Ed Woodrick Subject: Command confirmation request (612F07) Your command: SUBSCRIBE WIN95-L Ed Woodrick has been received. You must now reply to this message (as = explained below) to complete your subscription. The purpose of this = confirmation procedure is to check that the address LISTSERV is about to add to = the list for your subscription is reachable. This is a typical procedure = for high-volume lists and all new subscribers are subjected to it - you = are not being singled out. Every effort has been made to make = this verification as simple and painless as possible. Thanks in advance = for your cooperation. To confirm the execution of your command, simply reply to the = present message and type "ok" (without the quotes) as the text of your = message. Just the word "ok" - do not retype the command. This procedure will = work with any mail program that fully conforms to the Internet standards = for electronic mail. If you receive an error message, try sending a = new message to LISTSERV@PEACH.EASE.LSOFT.COM (without using the = "reply" function - this is very important) and type "ok 612F07" as the text = of your message. Finally, your command will be cancelled automatically if you do = not confirm it within 48h. After that time, you must start over and = resend the command to get a new confirmation code. If you change your mind = and decide that you do NOT want to confirm the command, simply discard = the present message and let the command expire on its own. --------------------------------------------------------------------- The WIN95-L list is hosted on a Windows NT(TM) machine running L-Soft international's LISTSERV(TM) software. To unsubscribe, send a SIGNOFF WIN95-L command to LISTSERV@PEACH.EASE.LSOFT.COM. If you have ques- tions about the list, write to WIN95-L-REQUEST@PEACH.EASE.LSOFT.COM. For LISTSERV sales information, just write to SALES@LSOFT.COM. ------ =_NextPart_000_01BAECF9.FBDFF400-- From list-managers-owner Sat Jan 27 18:23:05 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id SAA11178 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 27 Jan 1996 18:18:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from netcomsv.netcom.com (uucp7.netcom.com [163.179.3.7]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id SAA11162 for ; Sat, 27 Jan 1996 18:18:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from duke.sagarmatha.com by netcomsv.netcom.com with UUCP (8.6.12/SMI-4.1) id SAA15975; Sat, 27 Jan 1996 18:04:40 -0800 Received: by duke (Smail3.1.28.1 #64) id m0tgLUx-000gmAC; Sat, 27 Jan 96 17:01 PST Message-Id: From: james@sagarmatha.com (James C. Armstrong) Subject: Re: Consensus Sought on Sigs To: scott@zorch.sf-bay.org Date: Sat, 27 Jan 1996 17:01:39 -0800 (PST) Cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com In-Reply-To: from "Scott Hazen Mueller" at Jan 28, 96 00:06:34 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk According to unnamed sources, Scott Hazen Mueller is alleged to have written: => In an article mcb@postmodern.com (Michael C. Berch) writes: => >I use a 3-line sig for personal mail: => => >and a 4-line sig for business/professional mail: => Shoot, I've got more sigs than I've got hats. One for each newsgroup I => moderate (2 lines each), one for each mailing list I run (2 lines each), a => one-liner for personal mail, a two-liner with contact info for real-world => correspondents who might need phone number or snail-mail address, one for => work, and a moby sig with everything in it that I never use because it looks => boastful. I keep three, usually four lines, one per account. Recently, I've extended the one on netcom to six lines, but it is directions for eliminating spam, and when that is fixed, I'll find a new, pithy quote for it. -- James C. Armstrong, Jr. | I told my love, I told my love, james@sagarmatha.com | I told her all my heart, | Trembling, cold, in ghastly fears-- | Ah, she doth depart. From list-managers-owner Sat Jan 27 18:37:59 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id SAA11931 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 27 Jan 1996 18:36:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from outsider.bolis.sf-bay.org (bolis.com [204.153.195.10]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id SAA11902 for ; Sat, 27 Jan 1996 18:36:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from hock.bolis.sf-bay.org by outsider.bolis.sf-bay.org with smtp (Smail3.1.29.1 #3) id m0tgMtV-00041QC; Sat, 27 Jan 96 18:31 PST Received: from amillar by hock.bolis.sf-bay.org with smtp (Smail3.1.28.1 #6) id m0tgMfV-000UrcC; Sat, 27 Jan 96 18:16 PST Message-Id: Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Alan Millar" Organization: The Bolis Group To: Shlomi Harif , list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Date: Sat, 27 Jan 1996 18:21:54 -800 Subject: Re: Consensus Sought on Sigs X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.01) Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > Blaine wrote: > >Usually 4 lines is proper netiquette. Shlomi Harif wrote: > Your .sig violates Blaine's rule, and mine does as well. I suggest one as > long as it needs to be, and no more. If anything, I find more of a problem Ok, I'll bite: why is yours longer than it needs to be? > -------------------------------------------------- > WebSource, Inc. Phone: (800)WebSRC-1 > Austin, TX Fax: (512)837-2090 > E-mail: shlomi@websrc.com Web: www.websrc.com > Creating Revenue-Generating > Opportunities on the Internet > -------------------------------------------------- Here you go: -- WebSource, Inc. E-mail: shlomi@websrc.com Phone: (800)WebSRC-1 Austin, TX Web: www.websrc.com Fax: (512)837-2090 Creating Revenue-Generating Opportunities on the Internet Half the size, same content. Less annoying, too :-) - Alan ---- Alan Millar amillar@bolis.SF-Bay.org System Administrator http://www.bolis.com If only we were all weiner dogs, our problems would be solved! -Brave Little Toaster From list-managers-owner Sat Jan 27 19:38:09 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id TAA14200 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 27 Jan 1996 19:34:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from digital.netvoyage.net (digital.netvoyage.net [205.162.154.10]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id TAA14195 for ; Sat, 27 Jan 1996 19:34:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from digital.netvoyage.net (digital.netvoyage.net [205.162.154.10]) by digital.netvoyage.net (8.6.11/8.6.9) with SMTP id TAA27878; Sat, 27 Jan 1996 19:32:55 -0800 Date: Sat, 27 Jan 1996 19:32:54 -0800 (PST) From: Brock Rozen To: Ed Woodrick cc: "list-managers@greatcircle.com" Subject: Re: 3rd party auto-reply mailing list attack In-Reply-To: Message-ID: X-URL: http://www.netvoyage.net/~brozen MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Sat, 27 Jan 1996, Ed Woodrick wrote: > Here's one of the subscription replies that I got from one of the = > listserv lists. It goes into pretty good detail of how it handles the = > verification and the time frames that it implements. I've also tagged = > one of their sig lines that the list adds to all messages at the bottom. > > The way they are setup, you pretty much have to be where your address = > says you are from, for you to get subscribed to the list.=20 I think they have a wonderful setup. But one thing you mixed up on was that IF you are not where they think you are, yet the message still gets to you fine you CAN send in a NEW message with the verification code they give you. So it could be "OK " instead of just "OK"... But you only get the code if they message actually gets to you... ------------------------------------------------------------------------- | Brock Rozen | brozen@netvoyage.net | http://www.netvoyage.net/~brozen | ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From list-managers-owner Sat Jan 27 19:42:30 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id TAA14084 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 27 Jan 1996 19:29:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from digital.netvoyage.net (digital.netvoyage.net [205.162.154.10]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id TAA14079 for ; Sat, 27 Jan 1996 19:29:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from digital.netvoyage.net (digital.netvoyage.net [205.162.154.10]) by digital.netvoyage.net (8.6.11/8.6.9) with SMTP id TAA27455; Sat, 27 Jan 1996 19:27:54 -0800 Date: Sat, 27 Jan 1996 19:27:54 -0800 (PST) From: Brock Rozen To: Daniel Pfarrer , List Managers Subject: Re: Consensus Sought on Sigs In-Reply-To: Message-ID: X-URL: http://www.netvoyage.net/~brozen MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Sat, 27 Jan 1996, Daniel Pfarrer wrote: > > Usually 4 lines is proper netiquette. > > Well, I doubled that, to make it look like a business card. > > $**************************************************************************$ > * Daniel Pfarrer (DP108) SBA: daniel.pfarrer@sbaonline.gov * > * CEO & System Administrator CompuServe: 71324.212@compuserve.com * > * of GSP Services, Inc. Sys Admin: admin@gsp.com * > * Located in Washington, DC, USA Business: dpfarrer@gsp.com * > * For more info, e-mail info@gsp.com gsp@village.ios.com * > * "Balance the Budget!" WWW: http://village.ios.com/~gsp/ * > $**************************************************************************$ Personally, why give FIVE different e-mail addresses? If somebody wants to get in touch with you I'm sure they could send it to just ONE of those and still get through to you... Most people are interested in your job (it becomes obvious from your sbaonline.gov address that you work for the government. Nobody cares whether you're in D.C. or in Guam, although listing your web address if fine...yours could DEFINETLY be cut down... ------------------------------------------------------------------------- | Brock Rozen | brozen@netvoyage.net | http://www.netvoyage.net/~brozen | ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From list-managers-owner Sat Jan 27 19:47:05 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id TAA14062 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 27 Jan 1996 19:25:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from digital.netvoyage.net (digital.netvoyage.net [205.162.154.10]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id TAA14057 for ; Sat, 27 Jan 1996 19:25:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from digital.netvoyage.net (digital.netvoyage.net [205.162.154.10]) by digital.netvoyage.net (8.6.11/8.6.9) with SMTP id TAA27145; Sat, 27 Jan 1996 19:24:31 -0800 Date: Sat, 27 Jan 1996 19:24:31 -0800 (PST) From: Brock Rozen To: Jack Schnapper cc: List Managers Subject: Re: Consensus Sought on Sigs In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.19960127175717.006ced40@access.digex.net> Message-ID: X-URL: http://www.netvoyage.net/~brozen MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Sat, 27 Jan 1996, Jack Schnapper wrote: > What is the consensus on people using sigs when posting a message to a list? Well, now that this has come up I've reduced my sig even further. It used to be (awhile ago): ------------------------------------------------------------------------- | Brock Rozen | Internet: brozen@netvoyage.net | | | CompuServe: 71614,240 | | | ImagiNation Network: 1304 | |-----------------------------------------------------------------------| | Check out my homepage at http://www.netvoyage.net/~brozen | |-----------------------------------------------------------------------| | For automated information on various subjects, send an e-mail to my | | Internet address with SEND HELP on the SUBJECT line. | ------------------------------------------------------------------------- But it was too long so I trimmed it down to: ----------------------------------------------------------------------- | Brock Rozen | Internet: brozen@netvoyage.net | |---------------------------------------------------------------------| | Check out my homepage at http://www.netvoyage.net/~brozen | |---------------------------------------------------------------------| | For automated information on various subjects, send an e-mail to my | | Internet address with SEND HELP on the SUBJECT line. | ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Now I've got it down to: ------------------------------------------------------------------------- | Brock Rozen | brozen@netvoyage.net | http://www.netvoyage.net/~brozen | ------------------------------------------------------------------------- I'm still trying to think what I should do about the SEND HELP thing...Recently more people have been using it, so I'm inclined to leave it in but DO like my new short sig...will probably add two more lines, at max another three...but keeping it short is definetly a good idea. I do think that three to four to five lines of text should be the max and definetly the whole thing should be no longer than six lines. Also, don't forget not to make it too long horizontally as some people's screens wrap things, then it looks funny.. With my new sig (for the moment), ------------------------------------------------------------------------- | Brock Rozen | brozen@netvoyage.net | http://www.netvoyage.net/~brozen | ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From list-managers-owner Sat Jan 27 19:53:03 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id TAA14917 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 27 Jan 1996 19:46:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from hera.cuci.nl (hera.cuci.nl [194.183.100.1]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-951221-1) with ESMTP id TAA14912 for ; Sat, 27 Jan 1996 19:46:16 -0800 (PST) Received: (from srb@localhost) by hera.cuci.nl (8.7.3/BuGless_1.02) id EAA15349 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Sun, 28 Jan 1996 04:44:35 +0100 Message-Id: <199601280344.EAA15349@hera.cuci.nl> From: srb@cuci.nl (Stephen R. van den Berg) Date: Sun, 28 Jan 1996 04:44:34 +0100 In-Reply-To: Michael C. Berch's message as of 1996 Jan 27 Sat 15:04. <199601272304.PAA03880@server.postmodern.com> To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: Consensus Sought on Sigs Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Michael C. Berch wrote: >-- >Michael C. Berch >The "--" is not strictly necessary but it's in some old RFC as a >signature indicator in case some software wants to strip it off for >whatever reason. Actually, it's not just "--", but "-- ", note the space at the end (no, this is not a joke). -- Sincerely, srb@cuci.nl Stephen R. van den Berg (AKA BuGless). The eleventh commandment: Thou shalt not re-curse! From list-managers-owner Sat Jan 27 20:08:01 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id UAA15667 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 27 Jan 1996 20:01:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from digital.netvoyage.net (digital.netvoyage.net [205.162.154.10]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id UAA15662 for ; Sat, 27 Jan 1996 20:01:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from digital.netvoyage.net (digital.netvoyage.net [205.162.154.10]) by digital.netvoyage.net (8.6.11/8.6.9) with SMTP id TAA00436; Sat, 27 Jan 1996 19:59:58 -0800 Date: Sat, 27 Jan 1996 19:59:58 -0800 (PST) From: Brock Rozen To: Daniel Pfarrer cc: List Managers Subject: Re: Consensus Sought on Sigs In-Reply-To: Message-ID: X-URL: http://www.netvoyage.net/~brozen MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Sat, 27 Jan 1996, Daniel Pfarrer wrote: > > Personally, why give FIVE different e-mail addresses? If somebody wants > > to get in touch with you I'm sure they could send it to just ONE of > > those and still get through to you... > > > > Most people are interested in your job (it becomes obvious from your > > sbaonline.gov address that you work for the government. Nobody cares > > whether you're in D.C. or in Guam, although listing your web address if > > fine...yours could DEFINETLY be cut down... > > Well, your wrong! I don't work the goverment!!! Most people (your part of so why include your address on the SBA computer?? I have an account there also but don't list it! Usually one e-mail address will do. > the exception) would care of your location of business just for fun of > it, and that's one of several main reasons why most people use the interet. Maybe on the chat lists or on IRC...not on lists like list-managers or anything else that is serious...suggestion: maintain two sigs... > If someone's on CompuServe, they might find it handly to know my acct. # > for fourm messages, and live chats. So only use your Compuserve address...or list your CIS address and ONE Internet address...that's what I USED to do... You list five addresses though... > I could go on and on as to why it is necessary to have it the way it is, > but I'm tired... Good Night! meanwhile you list two e-mail addresses on one system and another on village...I understand they all have different functions but people will write to either ONE of them or to ALL of them...the bottom line is, the message is STILL getting to the same person, wherever they write... > $**************************************************************************$ > * Daniel Pfarrer (DP108) SBA: daniel.pfarrer@sbaonline.gov * > * CEO & System Administrator CompuServe: 71324.212@compuserve.com * > * of GSP Services, Inc. Sys Admin: admin@gsp.com * > * Located in Washington, DC, USA Business: dpfarrer@gsp.com * > * For more info, e-mail info@gsp.com gsp@village.ios.com * > * "Balance the Budget!" WWW: http://village.ios.com/~gsp/ * > $**************************************************************************$ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- | Brock Rozen | brozen@netvoyage.net | http://www.netvoyage.net/~brozen | ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From list-managers-owner Sun Jan 28 00:52:55 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id AAA26539 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 28 Jan 1996 00:43:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.crl.com (mail.crl.com [165.113.1.22]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id AAA26532 for ; Sun, 28 Jan 1996 00:43:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from crl4.crl.com by mail.crl.com with SMTP id AA11030 (5.65c/IDA-1.5 for ); Sun, 28 Jan 1996 00:40:03 -0800 Received: by crl4.crl.com id AA20548 (5.65c/IDA-1.5 for list-managers@greatcircle.com); Sun, 28 Jan 1996 00:27:15 -0800 Message-Id: <199601280827.AA20548@crl4.crl.com> Subject: Re: Consensus Sought on Sigs To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Date: Sun, 28 Jan 1996 00:27:15 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: from "Daniel Pfarrer" at Jan 27, 96 02:55:24 pm X-Copyright-Notice: Copyright 1995 (c) by Jack Hamilton From: jfh@acm.org (Jack Hamilton) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Daniel Pfarrer wrote: > > On Sat, 27 Jan 1996, Blaine E. Thompson wrote: > > > Usually 4 lines is proper netiquette. > > Well, I doubled that, to make it look like a business card. > > $**************************************************************************$ > * Daniel Pfarrer (DP108) SBA: daniel.pfarrer@sbaonline.gov * > * CEO & System Administrator CompuServe: 71324.212@compuserve.com * > * of GSP Services, Inc. Sys Admin: admin@gsp.com * > * Located in Washington, DC, USA Business: dpfarrer@gsp.com * > * For more info, e-mail info@gsp.com gsp@village.ios.com * > * "Balance the Budget!" WWW: http://village.ios.com/~gsp/ * > $**************************************************************************$ Miss Manners on business cards: In both cards and letterhead, business identification should be simple and clear. Few people need to know, on first acquaintance, where to reach you day, night, and in all your branch offices by all electronic means invented. In other words, if your business cards look like your signature, neither is correct. ------------- Jack Hamilton jfh@acm.org KD6TTL Sacramento, California From list-managers-owner Sun Jan 28 06:23:18 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id GAA06204 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 28 Jan 1996 06:12:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from ifi.uio.no (ifi.uio.no [129.240.64.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id GAA06199 for ; Sun, 28 Jan 1996 06:12:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from mne.ifi.uio.no (1232@mne.ifi.uio.no [129.240.70.5]) by ifi.uio.no with ESMTP (8.6.11/ifi2.4) id ; Sun, 28 Jan 1996 15:11:35 +0100 From: Kjetil Torgrim Homme Received: (from kjetilho@localhost) by mne.ifi.uio.no ; Sun, 28 Jan 1996 15:11:34 +0100 Date: Sun, 28 Jan 1996 15:11:34 +0100 Message-Id: <199601281411.16512.mne.ifi.uio.no@ifi.uio.no> To: List-Managers@greatcircle.com Cc: owner-majordomo@ifi.uio.no Subject: eagle.ais.net are at it again Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I got forged subscriptions to all the majordomo lists at my site. The targetted accounts were: rentaylor@aol.com pammcgraw@aol.com newsmaster@aol.com mtvslave@aol.com -- Kjetil T. Senders of unsolicited commercial emails are billed USD 100 for my proof-reading services. PS. Here are the headers for one of them, for reference: Received: from eagle.ais.net (root@eagle.ais.net [199.0.154.5]) by ifi.uio.no with SMTP (8.6.11/ifi2.4) id for ; Sat, 27 Jan 1996 08:45:46 +0100 Received: from aol.com by eagle.ais.net with smtp (Smail3.1.29.1 #18) id m0tg5KU-000Dc8C; Sat, 27 Jan 96 01:45 CST Message-Id: Date: Sat, 27 Jan 96 01:45 CST From: newsmaster Subject: subscribe To: majordomo@ifi.uio.no Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII From list-managers-owner Sun Jan 28 09:09:04 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id IAA09662 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 28 Jan 1996 08:56:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from login1.email.unc.edu (login1.email.unc.edu [152.2.25.15]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id IAA09649 for ; Sun, 28 Jan 1996 08:56:26 -0800 (PST) Received: (from dmmckali@localhost) by login1.email.unc.edu (8.6.12/8.6.12) id LAA85401; Sun, 28 Jan 1996 11:55:20 -0500 Date: Sun, 28 Jan 1996 11:55:20 -0500 (EST) From: David Mckalip To: List Managers Subject: Re: Consensus Sought on Sigs In-Reply-To: <199601272120.PAA01288@zoom.bga.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > >Usually 4 lines is proper netiquette. Boy, this discussion seems the exact opposite of the old boastful locker room remark. It now seems people are bragging when they say: "Mine is shorter than yours" :) ========================================================================= David McKalip, M.D. Neurosurgery Resident david_mckalip@unc.edu University of North Carolina-Chapel Hill <::0::>--------------------------< Personal Homepage: http//www.unc.edu/~dmmckali UNC Neurosurgery Website: http://sunsite.unc.edu/Neuro/uncns/home.html Neurosurgery Email List: neurosurgery@listserv.unc.edu =========================================================================== From list-managers-owner Sun Jan 28 10:39:38 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id KAA12411 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 28 Jan 1996 10:23:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from emout06.mail.aol.com (emout06.mail.aol.com [198.81.10.43]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id KAA12390 for ; Sun, 28 Jan 1996 10:23:08 -0800 (PST) From: PMDAtropos@aol.com Received: by emout06.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id NAA26810 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Sun, 28 Jan 1996 13:22:03 -0500 Date: Sun, 28 Jan 1996 13:22:03 -0500 Message-ID: <960128132202_305963595@emout06.mail.aol.com> To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: Consensus Sought on Sigs Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk In a message dated 96-01-27 14:49:29 EST, phredo@fortnet.org (Blaine E. Thompson) writes: >Usually 4 lines is proper netiquette. >On Sat, 27 Jan 1996, Jack Schnapper wrote: > >> What is the consensus on people using sigs when posting a message to a >list? The absolute minimum needed to impart the most important information you have to tell people, I would think. If you post frequently, I wouldn't exceed more than one or two lines in general, with occasional lapses to the longer sig (which should still be as short as possible). In my case, I usually just sign posts to the lists I run with "--Dave" or "--DaveOGLO" as necessary, and only use the longer signature when making Administrivial announcements. -- __ David B. O'Donnell (atropos@aol.net, PMDAtropos@aol.com, Atropos@gnn.com) \/ AOL Internet Feedback/Response/Information Team Manager, LISTSERV Manager Tel. 703/453-4000 x4255 FAX 703/453-4102 Pager 800/759-8888 PIN 128-5338 WWW: http://www.cais.com/atropos/ "The spam stops here." From list-managers-owner Sun Jan 28 11:52:56 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id LAA14750 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 28 Jan 1996 11:52:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from thrillseeker.wpc.af.mil (pppd3.bunt.com [206.48.164.42]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-951221-1) with ESMTP id LAA14744; Sun, 28 Jan 1996 11:51:54 -0800 (PST) Received: (from weh@localhost) by thrillseeker.wpc.af.mil (8.7.3/8.7.1) id MAA00555; Sun, 28 Jan 1996 12:01:16 -0200 Date: Sun, 28 Jan 1996 12:01:16 -0200 Message-Id: <199601281401.MAA00555@thrillseeker.wpc.af.mil> To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM CC: list-managers-digest@GreatCircle.COM In-reply-to: <199601280900.BAA27149@miles.greatcircle.com> (list-managers-digest-owner@GreatCircle.COM) Subject: Re: List-Managers-Digest V5 #17 From: Billy Harvey Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk A new question (I'm tired of reading about sigs :) Does anyone know why the digest version of List-Managers doesn't undigestify properly in emacs? I get a "not a digest" error message. _All_ the other digests I get explode properly. Speaking of sigs :) I keep a collection of cute sigs, mostly quotations. I still think my favorite was: "Sex on TV is allright ... as long as you don't fall off." Billy Harvey HarveyW@wpc.af.mil P.S. Don't you hate it when people use more than one smiley per posting? From list-managers-owner Sun Jan 28 11:57:19 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id LAA14764 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 28 Jan 1996 11:52:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from thrillseeker.wpc.af.mil (pppd3.bunt.com [206.48.164.42]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-951221-1) with ESMTP id LAA14749; Sun, 28 Jan 1996 11:52:00 -0800 (PST) Received: (from weh@localhost) by thrillseeker.wpc.af.mil (8.7.3/8.7.1) id LAA00498; Sun, 28 Jan 1996 11:44:06 -0200 Date: Sun, 28 Jan 1996 11:44:06 -0200 Message-Id: <199601281344.LAA00498@thrillseeker.wpc.af.mil> To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM CC: list-managers-digest@GreatCircle.COM In-reply-to: <199601280238.SAA12032@miles.greatcircle.com> (list-managers-digest-owner@GreatCircle.COM) Subject: Re: List-Managers-Digest V5 #16 From: Billy Harvey Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Jack Schnapper asked: > Is there a way (and if so, what is it) for a listmember to retrieve the > original welcome message that they received when they joined one of my > majordomo lists? Also, is there a way that I can re-send this message to > all members from time-to-time? The reason I am asking this is because I > regularly get messages from members of my lists asking to be removed or how > they can remove themselves. Naturally, majordomo had sent this info to them > when they joined, but they either didn't read it or didn't keep it. A mailing list I'm on recently started adding the following in the headers: X-Comment: To subscribe or unsubscribe, email wsmith@wordsmith.org X-continued: with subject "subscribe " or "unsubscribe" X-URL: http://www.wordsmith.org/awad/index.html This seems like a great idea to remind people how to quit, get help, etc. Obviously, the message should be kept short, or it'll irritate the old-timers on the list to see it every message. Billy Harvey harveyw@wpc.af.mil From list-managers-owner Sun Jan 28 13:22:57 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id NAA17053 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 28 Jan 1996 13:10:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from netcom2.netcom.com (netcom2.netcom.com [192.100.81.108]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id NAA17048 for ; Sun, 28 Jan 1996 13:10:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.0.2.1] by netcom2.netcom.com (8.6.12/Netcom) id NAA25740; Sun, 28 Jan 1996 13:08:22 -0800 X-Sender: outings@netcom3.netcom.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 28 Jan 1996 14:10:19 -0700 To: List-Managers@greatcircle.com From: outings@netcom.com (Steve Outing) Subject: Re: eagle.ais.net are at it again Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On 1/28/96, Kjetil Torgrim Homme wrote: >I got forged subscriptions to all the majordomo lists at my site. The >targetted accounts were: > >rentaylor@aol.com >pammcgraw@aol.com >newsmaster@aol.com >mtvslave@aol.com > These addresses hit all my majordomo lists yesterday as a group, so I was suspicious, too. BTW, pammcgraw@aol.com is the legitimate address of Pam McGraw, head of public relations at AOL. Is there any way to prevent forged subscriptions? My lists are set up so that a request from another address who typed "subscribe online-news other- address" would get intercepted and sent to me for approval. These ones went through automatically as though they were legit and came from the address owner. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Steve Outing Planetary News LLC outings@netcom.com Boulder, Colorado, USA owner-online-newspapers@marketplace.com voice: 303-543-7810 owner-online-news@marketplace.com fax/voice: 303-543-8550 Consulting services for the newspaper new media industry ---Read my Stop The Presses! column: http://www.mediainfo.com/ep/stop.htm--- From list-managers-owner Sun Jan 28 14:41:02 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id OAA18966 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 28 Jan 1996 14:34:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from emout04.mail.aol.com (emout04.mail.aol.com [198.81.10.12]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id OAA18961 for ; Sun, 28 Jan 1996 14:33:59 -0800 (PST) From: PMDAtropos@aol.com Received: by emout04.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id RAA08162 for List-Managers@greatcircle.com; Sun, 28 Jan 1996 17:32:55 -0500 Date: Sun, 28 Jan 1996 17:32:55 -0500 Message-ID: <960128164217_408703269@emout04.mail.aol.com> To: List-Managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: eagle.ais.net are at it again Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk In a message dated 96-01-28 16:23:31 EST, outings@netcom.com (Steve Outing) writes: >These addresses hit all my majordomo lists yesterday as a group, so I was >suspicious, too. BTW, pammcgraw@aol.com is the legitimate address of Pam >McGraw, head of public relations at AOL. I can provide a list of addresses which would *not* normally be subscribing to mailing lists, if people need them. I'd rather not post it here in case our enterprising mailspammer happens to be subscribed to the list. --David O'Donnell (atropos@aol.net, PMDAtropos@aol.com) From list-managers-owner Sun Jan 28 15:53:13 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id PAA20832 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 28 Jan 1996 15:40:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from village.ios.com (village.ios.com [198.4.75.49]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id PAA20827 for ; Sun, 28 Jan 1996 15:40:06 -0800 (PST) Received: (from gsp@localhost) by village.ios.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id SAA25745; Sun, 28 Jan 1996 18:32:44 -0500 Date: Sun, 28 Jan 1996 18:32:43 -0500 (EST) From: Daniel Pfarrer To: List Managers Mailing List Subject: Length of .sigs Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Below is an 18 line .sig I found from a user on the SPAM-L mailing list. Mine's only 8, and I'm not going to change it. $**************************************************************************$ * Daniel Pfarrer (DP108) SBA: daniel.pfarrer@sbaonline.gov * * CEO & System Administrator CompuServe: 71324.212@compuserve.com * * of GSP Services, Inc. Sys Admin: admin@gsp.com * * Located in Washington, DC, USA Business: dpfarrer@gsp.com * * For more info, e-mail info@gsp.com gsp@village.ios.com * * "Balance the Budget!" WWW: http://village.ios.com/~gsp/ * $**************************************************************************$ ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Sigh, Jean .-*#&%@%&#*-..-*#&%@%&#*-..-*#&%@%&#*-..-*#&%@%&#*-..-*#&%@%&#*-. "While Newt and his boys are busy accusing the Democrats of being for 'business as usual,' a look at their legislative proposals shows that the Republicans are for 'business, as usual.'" -Dan Leahy . : . . Jean E. Mulrenan : voice: 219-631-4859 . . Marketing Coordinator : fax: 219-631-8800 . . University of Notre Dame : internet: Jean.E.Mulrenan.1@nd.edu . MBA Program : http://www.nd.edu/~jmulrena/ . . : (under serious revision!) . .-*#&%@%&#*-..-*#&%@%&#*-..-*#&%@%&#*-..-*#&%@%&#*-..-*#&%@%&#*-. From list-managers-owner Sun Jan 28 19:22:57 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id TAA29326 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 28 Jan 1996 19:10:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from digital.netvoyage.net (digital.netvoyage.net [205.162.154.10]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id TAA29315 for ; Sun, 28 Jan 1996 19:10:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from digital.netvoyage.net (digital.netvoyage.net [205.162.154.10]) by digital.netvoyage.net (8.6.11/8.6.9) with SMTP id TAA07286 for ; Sun, 28 Jan 1996 19:09:16 -0800 Date: Sun, 28 Jan 1996 19:09:15 -0800 (PST) From: Brock Rozen To: List Managers Subject: Re: Length of .sigs In-Reply-To: Message-ID: X-URL: http://www.netvoyage.net/~brozen MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Sun, 28 Jan 1996, Daniel Pfarrer wrote: > Below is an 18 line .sig I found from a user on the SPAM-L mailing list. > Mine's only 8, and I'm not going to change it. Two wrongs don't make a right... ------------------------------------------------------------------------- | Brock Rozen | brozen@netvoyage.net | http://www.netvoyage.net/~brozen | ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From list-managers-owner Sun Jan 28 19:27:28 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id TAA29241 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 28 Jan 1996 19:08:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from access2.digex.net (access2.digex.net [205.197.245.193]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id TAA29236 for ; Sun, 28 Jan 1996 19:08:44 -0800 (PST) Received: (from asgilman@localhost) by access2.digex.net (8.6.12/8.6.12) id WAA15043 ; for ; Sun, 28 Jan 1996 22:07:28 -0500 From: Al Gilman Message-Id: <199601290307.WAA15043@access2.digex.net> Subject: forgery rejection To: outings@netcom.com (Steve Outing) Date: Sun, 28 Jan 1996 22:07:27 -0500 (EST) Cc: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: from "Steve Outing" at Jan 28, 96 02:10:19 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk From: outings@netcom.com (Steve Outing) Is there any way to prevent forged subscriptions? The CW would seem to be that twice-around subscription protocols, which send a magic cookie to the to-be-subscribed address, and do not permanently enroll the addressee until said magic cookie has been returned as a confirmation of the request to enroll, are the known way to defeat subscription forgeries (most of the time). Even these confirmation-request messages could be spammed into quite a mailbomb, :-< See in the archives under the "3rd party auto-reply ..." thread for a recent flurry touching on this issue. Al Gilman From list-managers-owner Sun Jan 28 19:52:59 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id TAA01537 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 28 Jan 1996 19:48:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from Post-Office.UH.EDU (Post-Office.UH.EDU [129.7.1.20]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-951221-1) with ESMTP id TAA01525 for ; Sun, 28 Jan 1996 19:48:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from UUCP-GW.CC.UH.EDU by Post-Office.UH.EDU (PMDF V5.0-5 #8380) id <01I0K4NS08HQ0006K6@Post-Office.UH.EDU> for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Sun, 28 Jan 1996 21:47:30 -0600 (CST) Received: from Taronga.COM by UUCP-GW.CC.UH.EDU with UUCP id AA24678 (5.67a/IDA-1.5 for list-managers@greatcircle.com); Sun, 28 Jan 1996 21:15:57 -0600 Received: (from arielle@localhost) by bonkers.taronga.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id SAA04903 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Sun, 28 Jan 1996 18:16:03 -0600 Date: Sun, 28 Jan 1996 18:16:02 -0600 (CST) From: arielle@taronga.com (Stephanie da Silva) Subject: Length of .sigs To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Message-id: <199601290016.SAA04903@bonkers.taronga.com> X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-type: text Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Daniel Pfarrer: > Below is an 18 line .sig I found from a user on the SPAM-L mailing list. > Mine's only 8, and I'm not going to change it. Ah, yes. The old "Well, he's doing it, so I'm going to do it too" argument. Sorry, doesn't wash. [Gee, if everyone went and jumped off a cliff... ] From list-managers-owner Sun Jan 28 22:38:14 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id WAA07558 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 28 Jan 1996 22:31:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from lokkur.dexter.mi.us (lokkur.dexter.mi.us [148.59.2.1]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-951221-1) with ESMTP id WAA07546 for ; Sun, 28 Jan 1996 22:31:40 -0800 (PST) Received: (from scs@localhost) by lokkur.dexter.mi.us (8.7.3/8.7.3) id BAA26067; Mon, 29 Jan 1996 01:30:34 -0500 (EST) To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Path: lokkur.dexter.mi.us!not-for-mail From: scs@lokkur.dexter.mi.us (Steve Simmons) Newsgroups: local.list-managers Subject: Re: Length of .sigs Date: 29 Jan 1996 01:30:34 -0500 Organization: Inland Sea Lines: 33 Distribution: local Message-ID: <4ehpia$peg@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> References: Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Daniel Pfarrer writes: >Below is an 18 line .sig I found from a user on the SPAM-L mailing list. >Mine's only 8, and I'm not going to change it. . . . both sigs deleted for sanity's sake . . . The sarcasm light is now lit. Excuse me? Because you found one person being a bigger pig means you will no longer worry about your own piggishness? Wow, what logic. I'm really impressed. `Hey, I found someone who's breaking the rules worse than I am, so I'm not gonna stop.' Geezopete, I never knew that's how it worked -- nobody can complain about bullshit if there's other bigger bullshit somewhere else. So if we get this other guy to clean up his act, are you then the next logical target? Or if someone comes out tomorrow with a 200-line sig, does that mean you can immediately go to 199 lines? Get real! The poor schmuck you cite is definately a bigger pig, but I betcha he's got interesting mail coming in right now, bitching about that bullshit sig. If he cleans it up tomorrow, will you clean yours up tomorrow? And if he does (or doesn't) how will you know? There is such a thing as setting a good example, you know. Maybe this schmuck saw yours and said ``Hey, he's got a big sig, so I can have a big sig too!'' Why didn't I ever realize that one can justify bad behaviour by finding someoe else bad to cite as a role model. Hully gee. The sarcasm light is now out. -- `DOS is Protestant, or even Calvinistic. It allows free interpretation of scripture, demands difficult personal decisions, imposes a subtle hermeneutics upon the user, and takes for granted the idea that not all can reach salvation.' -- Umberto Eco, in "Espresso," September 30, 1994. From list-managers-owner Sun Jan 28 23:08:30 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id WAA09587 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 28 Jan 1996 22:53:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from tango.rahul.net (tango.rahul.net [192.160.13.5]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id WAA09582 for ; Sun, 28 Jan 1996 22:53:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from bolero.rahul.net by tango.rahul.net with SMTP id AA21933 (5.67b8/IDA-1.5 for ); Sun, 28 Jan 1996 22:52:17 -0800 Received: from foxtrot.rahul.net by bolero.rahul.net with SMTP id AA06387 (5.67b8/IDA-1.5); Sun, 28 Jan 1996 22:52:17 -0800 From: Steve Portigal Received: by foxtrot.rahul.net (5.67b8/jive-a2i-1.0) id AA10478; Sun, 28 Jan 1996 22:52:14 -0800 Message-Id: <199601290652.AA10478@foxtrot.rahul.net> Subject: Re: Length of .sigs To: scs@lokkur.dexter.mi.us (Steve Simmons) Date: Sun, 28 Jan 1996 22:52:13 -0800 (PST) Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: <4ehpia$peg@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> from "Steve Simmons" at Jan 29, 96 01:30:34 am Organization: GVO - Interface Design Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk This crap has nothing to do with managing lists. Take it to alt.sigs.flame.newbie -- | steve portigal G V O | user interface dude | culturally aware interface design From list-managers-owner Sun Jan 28 23:52:56 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id XAA11734 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 28 Jan 1996 23:46:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from news5.crl.com (news5.crl.com [165.113.1.25]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id XAA11713 for ; Sun, 28 Jan 1996 23:46:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from nbi""UUCP by news5.crl.com with UUCP id AA25770 (5.65c/IDA-1.502 for list-managers@greatcircle.com); Sun, 28 Jan 1996 23:28:44 -0800 Received: by nbi.com (1.65/waf) via UUCP; Mon, 29 Jan 96 02:08:54 EST for list-managers@greatcircle.com To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: .sig length From: list-manager@nbi.com (Leigh Melton) Message-Id: <8yegiD1w165w@nbi.com> Date: Mon, 29 Jan 96 02:07:30 EST Organization: Burning From The Inside Out Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk scs@lokkur.dexter.mi.us (Steve Simmons) writes: > Or if someone comes out tomorrow with a > 200-line sig, does that mean you can immediately go to 199 lines? I hope nobody uses Kibo's warlord .sig for that purpose, or we're all doomed. L. --------------------------------------------------------------- *leigh@nbi.com As a matter of fact, I _do_ speak for nbi.com.* "Consequences, schmonsequences, as long as I'm rich." -Daffy Duck From list-managers-owner Mon Jan 29 11:27:38 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id LAA13862 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 29 Jan 1996 11:11:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (mycroft.greatcircle.com [198.102.244.35]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id LAA13798 for ; Mon, 29 Jan 1996 11:11:15 -0800 (PST) Received: by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.10/SMI-4.1/Brent-960123) id LAA13201; Mon, 29 Jan 1996 11:07:42 -0800 Received: from uucp9.netcom.com(163.179.3.9) by mycroft via smap (V1.3mjr) id sma013199; Mon Jan 29 11:06:43 1996 Received: from iceman.triad.com by netcomsv.netcom.com with UUCP (8.6.12/SMI-4.1) id KAA06388; Mon, 29 Jan 1996 10:28:06 -0800 Received: from triada.triad.com (triada.triad.com [192.54.110.1]) by triadb.triad.com (8.6.8.1/8.6.11) with SMTP id SAA03994; Mon, 29 Jan 1996 18:25:24 GMT Received: from iceman.triad.com by triada.triad.com (5.61/SMI-4.1) id AA05465; Mon, 29 Jan 96 10:27:27 -0800 Received: by iceman.triad.com (5.65/TRSC-4.0) id AA27700; Mon, 29 Jan 96 10:29:11 -0800 Date: Mon, 29 Jan 96 10:29:11 -0800 From: mgg@iceman.triad.com (Mark Galbraith) Message-Id: <9601291829.AA27700@iceman.triad.com> To: gsp@village.ios.com Cc: phredo@fortnet.org, jjflash@pobox.com, list-managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: (message from Daniel Pfarrer on Sat, 27 Jan 1996 14:55:24 -0500 (EST)) Subject: Re: Consensus Sought on Sigs Organization: Triad Systems, Livermore CA X-Phone: +1 510 449 0606 x6513 X-Mailer: Emacs-19.19 X-Attribution: mgg Reply-To: mgg@triad.com Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >>>>> "Daniel" == Daniel Pfarrer writes: Daniel> On Sat, 27 Jan 1996, Blaine E. Thompson wrote: >> Usually 4 lines is proper netiquette. Daniel> Well, I doubled that, to make it look like a business card. Daniel> $**************************************************************************$ Daniel> * Daniel Pfarrer (DP108) SBA: daniel.pfarrer@sbaonline.gov * Daniel> * CEO & System Administrator CompuServe: 71324.212@compuserve.com * Daniel> * of GSP Services, Inc. Sys Admin: admin@gsp.com * Daniel> * Located in Washington, DC, USA Business: dpfarrer@gsp.com * Daniel> * For more info, e-mail info@gsp.com gsp@village.ios.com * Daniel> * "Balance the Budget!" WWW: http://village.ios.com/~gsp/ * Daniel> $**************************************************************************$ Most Usenet news transport software (INN, cnews, etc.), when configured to defaults, will only put the first four lines of your .signature file onto the message. The rest of the file will be ignored. Using that limitation, the "Business card" from above doesn't really look all the good, does it? -- Mark Galbraith Senior UNIX Engineer/Postmaster PGP Key (E3468605) = 1C B9 74 81 AD 5C 57 09 69 0B AC 09 7F 65 D6 F6 "Those that give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -- Benjamin Franklin (1773) From list-managers-owner Mon Jan 29 11:38:40 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id LAA14907 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 29 Jan 1996 11:30:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from netcom13.netcom.com (netcom13.netcom.com [192.100.81.125]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id LAA14892 for ; Mon, 29 Jan 1996 11:30:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from [129.46.82.85] by netcom13.netcom.com (8.6.12/Netcom) id LAA26841; Mon, 29 Jan 1996 11:24:25 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/pgp; name="Re:_Length_of_.sigs" ; format="mime" Content-Disposition: inline; filename="Re:_Length_of_.sigs" Message-Id: X-Sender: Level Seven Design X-PGP-KeyID-Fprnt: 4AAF00E5 - 30D81F3484E6A83F 6EC8D7F0CAB3D265 X-PGP: http://www-swiss.ai.mit.edu/htbin/pks-extract-key.pl?op=get&search=lsd X-Floppyright: (f)1995 LSD.com _ Unlicensed retransmission prohibited. Date: Mon, 29 Jan 1996 11:27:20 -0800 To: List Managers Mailing List From: Dave Del Torto Subject: Re: Length of .sigs Cc: Daniel Pfarrer Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: Level Seven Design X-PGP-KeyID-Fprnt: 4AAF00E5 - 30D81F3484E6A83F 6EC8D7F0CAB3D265 X-PGP: http://www-swiss.ai.mit.edu/htbin/pks-extract-key.pl?op=get&search=lsd X-Floppyright: (f)1995 LSD.com _ Unlicensed retransmission prohibited. Date: Mon, 29 Jan 1996 11:24:15 -0800 To: List Managers Mailing List From: Dave Del Torto Subject: Re: Length of .sigs Cc: Daniel Pfarrer At 3:32 PM 1/28/96, Daniel Pfarrer wrote: >Below is an 18 line .sig I found from a user on the SPAM-L mailing list. >Mine's only 8, and I'm not going to change it. And I'm going to beat my widdle fists on da floor... jeeze. IMHO, if you can't fit what you need people to know into 1-3 lines, you're just behaving like a twit. If you want people to be able to email you back, your return address is in the header - you don't need to include it AGAIN in your .sig! If someone needs to fax you, they can send you email and ask how. If you have a web page (who doesn't these days...), put all that "valuable information" on _it_ and leave your mail msgs uncluttered. I looked at your 8-line .sig and I'm nonplussed (no offense intended). People with long .sigs apparently think that their time is more valuable than mine and that I should have to waste my bandwidth on them. It isn't, and I won't: I have better things to do. In fact, to be honest, I immediately tend to devaluate their subsequent postings. Furthermore, the information they provide is typically the kind that tries to make them sound more important than they really are. A savvy netter might read a .sig differently (or with greater objective insight) than one might expect. For example, what sort of company other than a tiny, one-man shop has a person who serves as "CEO" _and_ "System Administrator"? Really now... Another reason why I favor very small (or no) .sigs is because I believe in personal privacy: information about _me_ and my fascinating activities is on a need-to-know basis, and as far as I'm concerned, most of the world just simply doesn't need to know. I sure as heck don't want _my_ fax numbers ending up who-knows-where these days! If you want to find out more about me and my work, my X-Headers tell you (if you're the sort of clever person I prefer to deal with) how to contact me in cipherspace, where I _might_ be more forthcoming about precisely how I'm going to change the World. ;) Finally, I believe that the glut of people on the net has largely obscured the fine art of the elegant, simple .sig. I lament it's passing, but I will continue to work for Life, Liberty and the Freedom to Digitally Sign Messages Any Way You Please. After all, how else will all the net.twits out there expose themselves for what they really are and naturally select themselves out from the people doing truly important things? ;) As a matter of fact, I also encourage all KKK members to _wear_ their robes in public... BTW, the only .sig that really _means_ anything these days is a PGP-sig. dave ______________________________________________________ "Why does abbreviation have to be such a _long_ word?" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 Comment: Verbum sapienti satis est. iQCVAwUBMQ0fi6HBOF9KrwDlAQGx9wQAm45bNRAWMRmpYGGQf6rysPmASlIwTYkL /CP3rANrl6uNFac7eefnQtvwU4ruV65YYKMvCwWSLBDI5WuCcrnwRssbrlJeMhdC 5h53yC/bxVJkGL/GdX8EHZNyi8kZFfvjkuVFzj3PWqrc/9H047leDjeocwxyvft3 guhRA4nm2yY= =cVTe -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From list-managers-owner Mon Jan 29 12:55:32 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id LAA16939 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 29 Jan 1996 11:57:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from netcomsv.netcom.com (uucp2.netcom.com [163.179.3.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id LAA16932 for ; Mon, 29 Jan 1996 11:56:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from iceman.triad.com by netcomsv.netcom.com with UUCP (8.6.12/SMI-4.1) id KAA15128; Mon, 29 Jan 1996 10:41:12 -0800 Received: from triada.triad.com (triada.triad.com [192.54.110.1]) by triadb.triad.com (8.6.8.1/8.6.11) with SMTP id SAA04051; Mon, 29 Jan 1996 18:27:28 GMT Received: from iceman.triad.com by triada.triad.com (5.61/SMI-4.1) id AA05550; Mon, 29 Jan 96 10:29:32 -0800 Received: by iceman.triad.com (5.65/TRSC-4.0) id AA27708; Mon, 29 Jan 96 10:31:16 -0800 Date: Mon, 29 Jan 96 10:31:16 -0800 From: mgg@iceman.triad.com (Mark Galbraith) Message-Id: <9601291831.AA27708@iceman.triad.com> To: jjflash@pobox.com Cc: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.19960127225211.006ce5b0@access.digex.net> (message from Jack Schnapper on Sat, 27 Jan 1996 17:52:11 -0500) Subject: Re: Consensus Sought on Sigs Organization: Triad Systems, Livermore CA X-Phone: +1 510 449 0606 x6513 X-Mailer: Emacs-19.19 X-Attribution: mgg Reply-To: mgg@triad.com Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >>>>> "Jack" == Jack Schnapper writes: Jack> Uncle!! :-) Jack> Okay, I have seen the light! See my new, changed, 4 line sig. Jack> Thanks for everyone's input. Jack> Jack Jack> Jack Schnapper "If I am not for myself, who will be for me? Jack> jjflash@pobox.com If I am only for myself, what am I? Jack> http://www.pobox.com/~jjflash If not now, when?" Jack> - Hillel I count 5 lines, including the first "Jack". -- Mark Galbraith Senior UNIX Engineer/Postmaster PGP Key (E3468605) = 1C B9 74 81 AD 5C 57 09 69 0B AC 09 7F 65 D6 F6 "Those that give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -- Benjamin Franklin (1773) From list-managers-owner Mon Jan 29 18:53:12 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id SAA11831 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 29 Jan 1996 18:48:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from schoneal.com (wildride.schoneal.com [206.81.38.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id SAA11820 for ; Mon, 29 Jan 1996 18:48:09 -0800 (PST) Received: (from meo@localhost) by schoneal.com (8.6.11/8.6.11) id UAA17674; Mon, 29 Jan 1996 20:48:22 -0600 Message-Id: <199601300248.UAA17674@schoneal.com> Subject: Re: .sig length To: list-manager@nbi.com (Leigh Melton) Date: Mon, 29 Jan 1996 20:48:22 -0600 (CST) Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: <8yegiD1w165w@nbi.com> from "Leigh Melton" at Jan 29, 96 02:07:30 am From: meo@schoneal.com (Miles O'Neal) Reply-To: meo@schoneal.com (Miles O'Neal) Organization: Schober O'Neal, Inc / Net Ads X-WWW-URL: http://www.schoneal.com/~meo/ X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk |I hope nobody uses Kibo's warlord .sig for that purpose, or we're all |doomed. If this keeps up, I *will* have to get out the old /etc/termcap .sig... From list-managers-owner Tue Jan 30 01:23:13 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id AAA09378 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 30 Jan 1996 00:55:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from relay7.UU.NET (relay7.UU.NET [192.48.96.17]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-951221-1) with ESMTP id GAA06972 for ; Sun, 28 Jan 1996 06:43:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from peg.apc.org by relay7.UU.NET with SMTP id QQaamc25613; Sun, 28 Jan 1996 09:42:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from guest1.peg.apc.org (t7.dialup.peg.apc.org [192.203.176.135]) by peg.apc.org (8.6.9/Revision: 1.9 ) with SMTP id BAA24346 for ; Mon, 29 Jan 1996 01:38:38 +1000 Date: Mon, 29 Jan 1996 01:38:38 +1000 Message-Id: <199601281538.BAA24346@peg.apc.org> X-Sender: janderson@peg.apc.org X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: list-managers@greatcircle.com From: janderson@peg.apc.org (Jeff Anderson) Subject: Ghost members Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I have just discovered something I find quite fascinating. On my (Majordomao) maillist, if a non-member attempts to send to the list, it (admin) bounces to me. If a person who was a list member, but who has since been unsubscribed, sends something to the list, it goes through ok. This person is not receiving mail, hasn't since being unsubscribed, but can definitely post to the list. Can anyone tell me why? Thank you Jeff Anderson From list-managers-owner Tue Jan 30 01:23:56 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id AAA09419 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 30 Jan 1996 00:56:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from digital.netvoyage.net (digital.netvoyage.net [205.162.154.10]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id PAA20623 for ; Sun, 28 Jan 1996 15:36:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from digital.netvoyage.net (digital.netvoyage.net [205.162.154.10]) by digital.netvoyage.net (8.6.11/8.6.9) with SMTP id PAA19487; Sun, 28 Jan 1996 15:34:59 -0800 Date: Sun, 28 Jan 1996 15:34:58 -0800 (PST) From: Brock Rozen To: Billy Harvey cc: List Managers Subject: Re: List-Managers-Digest V5 #16 In-Reply-To: <199601281344.LAA00498@thrillseeker.wpc.af.mil> Message-ID: X-URL: http://www.netvoyage.net/~brozen MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Sun, 28 Jan 1996, Billy Harvey wrote: > A mailing list I'm on recently started adding the following in the headers: > > X-Comment: To subscribe or unsubscribe, email wsmith@wordsmith.org > X-continued: with subject "subscribe " or "unsubscribe" > X-URL: http://www.wordsmith.org/awad/index.html I'm the list-manager for about 14 lists and we have two additional headers on ALL the messages that we send out. PG-Header: PG-Help: Please send mail to gabbai@torah.org for subscription assistance. Two simple lines and since we placed them in a few months ago the gabbai@torah.org address has been used TREMENDOUSLY...When they write to this address they receive an auto-reply message that is fairly long but tells them how to subscribe to any list, unsubscribe or change their subscription address. Don't forget that if it is a non-standard header that some mail programs will NOT automatically show it (like PINE) unless the person requests extended headers. Some programs will always show it... My personal message contain an X-URL header for anybody that looks... ------------------------------------------------------------------------- | Brock Rozen | brozen@netvoyage.net | http://www.netvoyage.net/~brozen | ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From list-managers-owner Tue Jan 30 04:53:28 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id EAA20266 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 30 Jan 1996 04:47:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from homer.louisville.edu (homer.louisville.edu [136.165.1.20]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id EAA20261 for ; Tue, 30 Jan 1996 04:46:56 -0800 (PST) Received: by homer.louisville.edu; (5.65v3.0/1.1.8.2/03Jun94-0854PM) id AA18705; Tue, 30 Jan 1996 07:45:55 -0500 Date: Tue, 30 Jan 1996 07:45:54 -0500 (EST) From: "Jason A. Dour aka Dark Father Amadeus" To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Headers...Sigs...and Twits...OH MY! In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I must admit...I've caught the tail end of this discussion...but the back-quoting has been fairly heavy... 8) I just have a coupole of points... MHO... I run four mailing lists. Nothing major, no. But between this and personal experience through email and (l)use(r)net, I've run into a few problems... When it comes to providing information, either in .sigs or in headers, there is one thing I have found to be key...and yes, it has been mentioned...but has not thoroughly argued, I believe. Not all mail programs show headers properly. Not all mail servers/gateways convert/pass headers properly. This normally kills the header information you provide (which I had tested on my mailing lists). And sometimes, it can kill te return address. Yes, yes. You're going to argue that anyone that can't look at the headers manually or through some trick of their software either is not worth their salt, or needs a new mail program. However, the real issue is that a well constructed .sig covers this probelm. My sig has some garbage...I will admit...but I'm at four lines. But is does provide the information in which people might be interested, without making them do header dances or pray to the almighty software gods to help them "find" the information. For example... I have roughly 500+ people subscribed to my lists. Among them are many people who can't retrieve any special headers. Whether this is a technical issue or an operator issue, I can't tell. But I can provide them the information...in my private sig...and in the mailing lists' four line sig. If it weren't for those sigs, offering more than my name or the name of the list, we would be flooded with majordomo requests on the list...or I would be flooded with bounces...or... I think you get the picture. Ultimately...well contructed sigs provide a wealth of information to computer plebes, as well as the gifted who are cursed with bad software. I've learned to just be tolerant of sigs...unless the person goes 4-6+ and annoys...then you and several thousand of like-minded sig police will politely inform the person through email of their "mistake." ;P Gotta run, + Jason A. Dour a.k.a. Dark Father Amadeus Finger for Geek Code, + | jadour01@homer.louisville.edu general info, and | | HP: http://www.louisville.edu/~jadour01/ my PGP public key... | + Visit my WWW site for *TONS* of PJ Harvey material. + From list-managers-owner Tue Jan 30 07:08:41 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id HAA25062 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 30 Jan 1996 07:03:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from kali.cc.ruu.nl (ns2.cc.ruu.nl [131.211.16.201]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id HAA25048 for ; Tue, 30 Jan 1996 07:02:59 -0800 (PST) Received: by kali.cc.ruu.nl id AA22728 (5.67b/IDA-1.5 for List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM); Tue, 30 Jan 1996 16:01:54 +0100 X-Nupop-Charset: English Date: Tue, 30 Jan 1996 20:06:31 -0600 (CST) From: "Eric J. Gouda" Message-Id: <72392.gouda@kali.cc.ruu.nl> To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: RE: Length of .sigs Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Hi, I'm new to this list and because of this discussion I did a redesign on my 'sig' which was 13, YES 13 lines, see it for your self: _____________________________________________________________________ | | | Eric J. Gouda (Gouda@cc.ruu.nl) ____ ____ ___ | | Jungfrau 107, NL-3524WJ Utrecht /\___\ /\__/\ /\ /\__\ | | or THE NETHERLANDS /_/_ /_/_/ / / / / / | | Botanic Gardens University Utrecht /\___\ /\ __\/ / / / / | | P.O.Box 80.162, NL-3508TD Utrecht /_/__ / /\\ / / /_/_ | | Phone +31 30 539281 Fax +31 30 535177 \____\ \/ \\ \/ \___\ | | | | -> ALPINE-L@nic.Surfnet.NL (the electronic Rock Garden Journal) <- | | -> DELTA-L@nic.Surfnet.NL (DEscription Language for TAxonomy ) <- | |_____________________________________________________________________| A long 'sig' didn't border me in the past, people are not reading it as text, but only if they need your address or other information. It is sertainly not as irritating as replying to a spam and repeating the whole message. I think a 'sig' may have a personal touch or humor, that takes some lines. Ok, to keep everybody happy I'll take away at least 4 lines (but that is as far as I can go), and look what is left: ____ Eric _J. Gouda____ Gouda@cc.ruu.nl _ Phone: +31 30 539281 / ___|_ __(_) __ / ___| ___ _ _ __| | __ _ Faxnr: +31 30 535177 | |__ | '__| |/ _| | | _ / _ \| | | |/ _` |/ _` | Prive: Jungfrau 107 | |___| | | | (_ | |_| | (_) | |_| | (_| | (_| | NL-3524 WJ Utrecht \____|_| |_|\__| \____|\___/ \___/ \__,_|\__,_| THE NETHERLANDS (NL) University Botanic Gardens, PO Box 80.162, NL-3508 TD Utrecht (curator) \ ALPINE-L@nic.SurfNet.NL (The Electronic Rock Garden Journal) / \__ DELTA-L@nic.SurfNet.NL (DEscription Language for TAxonomy) _____/ From list-managers-owner Tue Jan 30 08:38:50 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id IAA27655 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 30 Jan 1996 08:08:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from nutrimat.gnu.ai.mit.edu (nutrimat.gnu.ai.mit.edu [128.52.46.42]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id IAA27650 for ; Tue, 30 Jan 1996 08:08:01 -0800 (PST) Received: by nutrimat.gnu.ai.mit.edu (8.6.12/8.6.12GNU) id LAA10357; Tue, 30 Jan 1996 11:06:53 -0500 Date: Tue, 30 Jan 1996 11:06:53 -0500 From: "Leonard H. Tower Jr." Message-Id: <199601301606.LAA10357@nutrimat.gnu.ai.mit.edu> To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM In-reply-to: <199601300248.UAA17674@schoneal.com> "meo@schoneal.com" Reply-To: tower@albert.gnu.ai.mit.edu Organization: Project GNU, Free Software Foundation, 59 Temple Place - Suite 330, Boston, MA 02111-1307, USA +1-617-542-5942 Home: 36 Porter Street, Somerville, MA 02143, USA +1-617-623-7739 URL: http://www.ai.mit.edu/~tower/home.html Subject: .sig length Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk this matter of .signature length is off-topic for this list. could you all drop it or move it to other forums. yours for staying focused. best -len From list-managers-owner Tue Jan 30 09:09:23 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id IAA29473 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 30 Jan 1996 08:47:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from epx.cis.umn.edu (epx.cis.umn.edu [128.101.83.4]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id IAA29468 for ; Tue, 30 Jan 1996 08:47:42 -0800 (PST) From: jkg@epx.cis.umn.edu Received: by epx.cis.umn.edu; Tue, 30 Jan 96 10:46:40 -0600 Message-Id: <001310e4b6f016339@epx.cis.umn.edu> Subject: Document comparing mailing list software To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Date: Tue, 30 Jan 96 10:46:39 CST X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL11] Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Does anyone have a document that compares various mailing list packages? I saw one in the past comparing listserv, procmail, and majordomo. Thanks. Jane K. Gehan Computer & Information Services Internet: jkg@epx.cis.umn.edu. University of Minnesota Phone: (612) 626-1810 From list-managers-owner Tue Jan 30 10:10:17 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id KAA03550 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 30 Jan 1996 10:00:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from bbfm.di.com (bbfm.di.com [204.74.64.1]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id KAA03533 for ; Tue, 30 Jan 1996 10:00:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from tomorrow by bbfm.di.com (8.6.10/TD-1.21) with SMTP id JAA24846 for on Tue, 30 Jan 1996 09:58:37 -0800 Message-Id: <2.2.32.19960130100229.00313d10@mail.di.com> X-Sender: today@mail.di.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 30 Jan 1996 10:02:29 +0000 To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Todd Day Subject: Re: Consensus Sought on Sigs Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I produce a heavily edited digest for a particular type of automobile. I've gotten in the habit of deleting just about everything out of the .sigs that people include. Usually, they are the same thing day after day after day. Lots of times, they include some lame quote from a TV show or coffee mug. Most of the time, they add absolutely no value to the content of the message. But worst of all, they make WAIS searches through the archives pull up the wrong messages and clog the archives in general. Since I make a digest only, the email address included at the header of the submessage is correct 99% of the time, so subscribers don't even need to have their email address in the footer. You might consider this policy draconian or at least impersonal, but it makes my 25-35 message/day digest a lot easier to read. I have received absolutely no bad karma from this policy. In fact, I have noticed that people have shortened or eliminated their .sig as a courtesy to me as editor and others on the list as readers. -todd- From list-managers-owner Tue Jan 30 12:22:27 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id MAA09939 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 30 Jan 1996 12:03:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from digital.netvoyage.net (digital.netvoyage.net [205.162.154.10]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id MAA09928 for ; Tue, 30 Jan 1996 12:03:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from digital.netvoyage.net (digital.netvoyage.net [205.162.154.10]) by digital.netvoyage.net (8.6.11/8.6.9) with SMTP id MAA18687; Tue, 30 Jan 1996 12:02:42 -0800 Date: Tue, 30 Jan 1996 12:02:40 -0800 (PST) From: Brock Rozen To: "Jason A. Dour aka Dark Father Amadeus" cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Headers...Sigs...and Twits...OH MY! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: X-URL: http://www.netvoyage.net/~brozen MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Tue, 30 Jan 1996, Jason A. Dour aka Dark Father Amadeus wrote: > My sig has some garbage...I will admit...but I'm at four lines. But is > does provide the information in which people might be interested, without > making them do header dances or pray to the almighty software gods to > help them "find" the information. Ok ok...let's agree on a few things here: 1) A sig that provides USEFUL information (and since you mentioned the stuff about Usenet, that would include a return address) is OK -- ONLY IF -- it is limited to a certain amount of lines. Your sig, for example, provides quite a bit of info and it does so in four lines! If I really wanted to be picky, I would eliminate the last line of your sig, but four lines is fine. Somebody who needs 8 lines of "useful" information is greatly overweighting their personal importance. People only need ONE email address to contact people and the rest can be obtained through that address. My sig is three lines (one line of info) and it has my name, e-mail address AND homepage. If I can do it in one line, others can CERTAINLY do it in less than 8 lines!! Come on people! Nobody cares about where you live, your fax number, your job position, etc etc! If they DO then they can write to you!! > Ultimately...well contructed sigs provide a wealth of information to Ahhh...the key words are "well constructed" ------------------------------------------------------------------------- | Brock Rozen | brozen@netvoyage.net | http://www.netvoyage.net/~brozen | ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From list-managers-owner Tue Jan 30 12:24:49 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id MAA10262 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 30 Jan 1996 12:10:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from hahp9k.harte-lyne.ca (hahp9k.harte-lyne.ca [205.206.207.101]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-951221-1) with ESMTP id MAA10236 for ; Tue, 30 Jan 1996 12:10:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from hal-ham-g01-u01 (i486nt01.harte-lyne.ca) by hahp9k.harte-lyne.ca with SMTP (1.39.111.2/16.2) id AA195062534; Tue, 30 Jan 1996 15:08:54 -0500 Message-Id: <310E7B60.28D6@harte-lyne.ca> Date: Tue, 30 Jan 1996 15:11:12 -0500 From: "James B. Byrne" Organization: Harte & Lyne Limited X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.0b5 (WinNT; I) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: "Eric J. Gouda" Cc: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Length of .sigs References: <72392.gouda@kali.cc.ruu.nl> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Eric, You have WAY TOO much spare time. Jim -- James B. Byrne mailto:byrnejb@harte-lyne.ca Harte & Lyne Limited http://www.harte-lyne.ca Hamilton, Ontario 905-561-1241 From list-managers-owner Tue Jan 30 12:38:16 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id MAA11141 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 30 Jan 1996 12:33:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from ds1.gl.umbc.edu (ds1.gl.umbc.edu [130.85.3.11]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id MAA11136 for ; Tue, 30 Jan 1996 12:32:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from umbc8.umbc.edu (imitni1@f-umbc8.umbc.edu [130.85.3.8]) by ds1.gl.umbc.edu (8.6.12/8.6.9) with ESMTP id PAA15859; Tue, 30 Jan 1996 15:31:41 -0500 Received: (imitni1@localhost) by umbc8.umbc.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/8.6.9) id PAA13573; Tue, 30 Jan 1996 15:31:43 -0500 Date: Tue, 30 Jan 1996 15:31:42 -0500 (EST) From: "mitnick ian ( bs ifsm)" X-Sender: imitni1@umbc8.umbc.edu To: Brock Rozen cc: Billy Harvey , List Managers Subject: Re: List-Managers-Digest V5 #16 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk does list-managers greatcircle have a phone number? I have tried every way to cancel this list managers thing Im getting 100 messages a day from this imitni1@umbc.edu From list-managers-owner Tue Jan 30 13:12:59 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id MAA12236 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 30 Jan 1996 12:55:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from xroads.vthrc.uq.edu.au (xroads.vthrc.uq.edu.au [130.102.4.16]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-951221-1) with ESMTP id MAA12229 for ; Tue, 30 Jan 1996 12:55:31 -0800 (PST) Received: (from root@localhost) by xroads.vthrc.uq.edu.au (8.7.3/8.7.3) id GAA06492 for ; Wed, 31 Jan 1996 06:53:43 +1000 (EST) Received: from arundel.vthrc.uq.edu.au(130.102.4.21) by xroads.vthrc.uq.edu.au via smap (V1.3) id sma006489; Wed Jan 31 06:53:35 1996 X-Sender: Vthomas@xroads.vthrc.uq.edu.au. Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Wed, 31 Jan 1996 06:53:23 +1000 To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM From: D.Thomas@vthrc.uq.edu.au (Danny Thomas) Subject: sigs: some experience Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I'm always loathe to step in when a thread has thrown up more heat than light, but felt it worthwhile mentioning: people have said it's unnecessary to include your email address cause it's in the headers. 1) some digests I used to frequent carefully stripped out a lot of the headers such that determining reply address was impossible. Yes you can argue the configuration was broken, but for sheer pragmatism I thought it necessary to include reply address in 'sig' 2) I want to discourage people from gleaning return addresses from headers. In my recent configuration of our departmental mail system, I've taken to accepting recipient addresses of the only form we've ever advertised. It's surprising the number of messages to host based addresses. There's also the historical problem in Australia of confusion between oz, oz.au & au. In any case the automated reply includes a suggested email address that should be used, plus of course a mention of contacting postmaster. and I don't think anyone mentioned the width of sigs. The Eudora mailer I use wraps at about 76 characters which disrupts a surprising number of sigs which have been carefully constructed to fit on 80 character terminals. These also display scant regard to what happens when the sig is quoted. so in general I sign my messages with the following two-liner cheers, Danny Thomas (D.Thomas@vthrc.uq.edu.au) PS but I haven't yet considered what to do about point to web-page. From list-managers-owner Tue Jan 30 13:37:12 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id NAA13172 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 30 Jan 1996 13:12:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from village.ios.com (village.ios.com [198.4.75.49]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id NAA13167 for ; Tue, 30 Jan 1996 13:12:02 -0800 (PST) Received: (from gsp@localhost) by village.ios.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id QAA24795; Tue, 30 Jan 1996 16:04:19 -0500 Date: Tue, 30 Jan 1996 16:04:14 -0500 (EST) From: Daniel Pfarrer To: "mitnick ian ( bs ifsm)" cc: Jack Schnapper , List Managers Subject: New topic! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk You should of kept the message(s) that were sent to you when you subscribed, I don't have a copy of the standard messages on hand, but will look them up... Also, if you are leaving because of the recent nonsense .sig war, please stay, I'm sure we can come up with a new topic that IS related to List-Managers. Thanks! On Mon, 29 Jan 1996, mitnick ian ( bs ifsm) wrote: > HOW DO I GET OFF LIST MANAGERS!!!!! > GET ME OFF!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! > > IMITNI1@UMBC.EDU > $**************************************************************************$ * Daniel Pfarrer (DP108) SBA: daniel.pfarrer@sbaonline.gov * * CEO & System Administrator CompuServe: 71324.212@compuserve.com * * of GSP Services, Inc. Sys Admin: admin@gsp.com * * Located in Washington, DC, USA Business: dpfarrer@gsp.com * * For more info, e-mail info@gsp.com gsp@village.ios.com * * "Balance the Budget!" WWW: http://village.ios.com/~gsp/ * $**************************************************************************$ From list-managers-owner Tue Jan 30 13:38:45 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id NAA13958 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 30 Jan 1996 13:25:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from ds1.gl.umbc.edu (ds1.gl.umbc.edu [130.85.3.11]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id NAA13944 for ; Tue, 30 Jan 1996 13:25:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from umbc8.umbc.edu (imitni1@f-umbc8.umbc.edu [130.85.3.8]) by ds1.gl.umbc.edu (8.6.12/8.6.9) with ESMTP id QAA20105 for ; Tue, 30 Jan 1996 16:24:04 -0500 Received: (imitni1@localhost) by umbc8.umbc.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/8.6.9) id QAA21113; Tue, 30 Jan 1996 16:24:06 -0500 Date: Tue, 30 Jan 1996 16:24:05 -0500 (EST) From: "mitnick ian ( bs ifsm)" X-Sender: imitni1@umbc8.umbc.edu To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk how do i get off this mailing list??? imitni1@Umbc.edu From list-managers-owner Tue Jan 30 14:38:34 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id OAA18904 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 30 Jan 1996 14:31:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from indyramp.com (indyramp-gw.indyramp.com [198.70.144.133]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id OAA18894 for ; Tue, 30 Jan 1996 14:30:49 -0800 (PST) Received: (from rnovak@localhost) by indyramp.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id RAA18356; Tue, 30 Jan 1996 17:29:38 -0500 Message-Id: <199601302229.RAA18356@indyramp.com> Subject: Re: unsubbing from List-Managers To: imitni1@gl.umbc.edu (mitnick ian) Date: Tue, 30 Jan 1996 17:29:38 -0500 (EST) Cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com In-Reply-To: from "mitnick ian" at Jan 30, 96 03:31:42 pm From: rnovak@indyramp.com (Robert Novak) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 PGP3A] Content-Type: text Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I thought I heard a "mitnick ian" say: > > does list-managers greatcircle have a phone number? I have tried every > way to cancel this list managers thing > Im getting 100 messages a day from this I must be on a different list-managers thing, since I've gotten only 186 messages total since Dec. 10. That comes down to an average of much less than 100 messages a day :-) However, here is how to get off list-managers or its digest... it's in the welcome message you get when you sign up (show of hands, who wonders if "mitnick ian" is really a list manager?). :Welcome to the list-managers mailing list! : :Please save this message for future reference. Thank you. : :If you ever want to remove yourself from this mailing list, :you can send mail to with the following :command in the body of your email message: : : unsubscribe list-managers Your email address goes in the space; when majordomo welcomes you, you get a copy of this with the address in that space. If you are on the digest, use "list-managers-digest" instead of "list-managers" and it should work. On a related topic, has anyone perfected the clue transfer protocol yet? It always makes me wonder when things like this happen (list managers who can't unsubscribe from a mailing list, linux administrators who can't create a non-root account to post to mailing lists from, caffeine free diet mountain dew)... Have a good day, Rob -- Robert Novak at Indyramp Consulting | ********** rnovak@indyramp.com ********** | finger for my pgp ####### http://www.indyramp.com/ ######## | public key or geek code Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum viditur | From list-managers-owner Tue Jan 30 16:08:19 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id PAA24337 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 30 Jan 1996 15:42:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from leibniz.math.psu.edu (leibniz.math.psu.edu [146.186.130.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id PAA24295 for ; Tue, 30 Jan 1996 15:41:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from augusta.math.psu.edu (barr@augusta.math.psu.edu [146.186.132.2]) by leibniz.math.psu.edu (8.6.12/8.6.9) with ESMTP id SAA02591 for ; Tue, 30 Jan 1996 18:40:50 -0500 Received: from localhost (barr@localhost) by augusta.math.psu.edu (8.6.12/8.6.9) with ESMTP id SAA20149 for ; Tue, 30 Jan 1996 18:40:49 -0500 Message-Id: <199601302340.SAA20149@augusta.math.psu.edu> To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: sigs: some experience In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 31 Jan 1996 06:53:23 +1000." References: X-Face: $+9-wYg.[->94HJ{go[7Q]E!K&hUg7ZhLyCMyq_FU*ca0GazE>^/2BKLcK0bP-'%;Nn?M+am,jlSP>1K$iz@ %'v'FEW{@](U&Ed/}>ju3Ctlr!XwJ27Q)7h2a%"`sz;j:/3EC[mXi@*X@HE1]'ddq$ZX"ePsMyTkeg >zdML.SVvX1W`adGIUD Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Tue, 30 Jan 1996 18:40:49 -0500 From: Dave Barr Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk In message , Danny Thomas writes: >I'm always loathe to step in when a thread has thrown up more heat than >light, but felt it worthwhile mentioning: > >people have said it's unnecessary to include your email address cause it's >in the headers. That's true. >1) some digests I used to frequent carefully stripped out a lot of > the headers such that determining reply address was impossible. I've never seen a digester strip out "From:". If it did, it's beyond broken and into the realm of ... well I can't think of a good word to describe it that's PG. If the person's From: addresss is not replyable, then that's the poster's fault, not the digester. (Reply-To: is not a replacement for From:, only a mechanism to redirect replies. There are MTA's which will still use the From: address in addition to the Reply-To: address when generating group replies) >2) I want to discourage people from gleaning return addresses from > headers. In my recent configuration of our departmental mail > system, I've taken to accepting recipient addresses of the only > form we've ever advertised. It's surprising the number of messages > to host based addresses. You mean user@host.site.xx instead of user@site.xx? If it's never been in the headers as you say it hasn't, then why are you making this conclusion? If user@host.site.xx isn't supposed to work, then it should never appear in a From:. Your mailer should rewrite it. If someone else is generating these addresses then shoot them, but that's not a reason to discourage people from trusting addresses in headers. I've been involved with DRUMS, the IETF WG involved in clarifying RFC 822/821. This very issue has been discussed a LOT. The consensus appears to be that there really is no substitute for correctly functioning MUA and MTA's, and that overloading Reply-To as a substitute for From: is dangerous. (I'm doing a fair amount of hand-waving, because the issues are complex and numerous, especially with respect to mailing lists) --Dave From list-managers-owner Tue Jan 30 16:39:00 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id QAA29045 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 30 Jan 1996 16:34:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from big486.ed-com.com (big486.ed-com.com [38.253.238.200]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id QAA29010 for ; Tue, 30 Jan 1996 16:34:32 -0800 (PST) Received: by big486.ed-com.com with Microsoft Exchange (IMC 4.1.611) id <01BAEF4A.CB39C850@big486.ed-com.com>; Tue, 30 Jan 1996 19:40:22 -0500 Message-ID: From: Ed Woodrick To: "List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM" Subject: RE: sigs: some experience Date: Tue, 30 Jan 1996 19:40:20 -0500 X-Mailer: Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.1.611 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="---- =_NextPart_000_01BAEF4A.CB3FE2D0" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. Contact your mail administrator for information about upgrading your reader to a version that supports MIME. ------ =_NextPart_000_01BAEF4A.CB3FE2D0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Their are some mailers that don't correctly show the address. Microsoft = Mail is one of them. And there is enough of it out there that the number = of readers not seeing the originators address is fairly large. So many = lists request that you do include your address so that people can reply = back directly. But I don't think that more than one address is necessary, and putting = your phone number in the sig can be dangerous! Ed Woodrick ---------- From: Dave Barr[SMTP:barr@math.psu.edu] Sent: Tuesday, January 30, 1996 6:40 PM To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: sigs: some experience=20 In message , Danny Thomas writes: >I'm always loathe to step in when a thread has thrown up more heat than >light, but felt it worthwhile mentioning: > >people have said it's unnecessary to include your email address cause = it's >in the headers. That's true. ------ =_NextPart_000_01BAEF4A.CB3FE2D0-- From list-managers-owner Tue Jan 30 17:23:32 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id RAA03792 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 30 Jan 1996 17:20:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from iquest1.iquest.net (iquest1.iquest.net [206.27.192.200]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id RAA03784 for ; Tue, 30 Jan 1996 17:19:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from iquest.net by iquest1.iquest.net with smtp (Smail3.1.29.1 #11) id m0thRBA-000BOWC; Tue, 30 Jan 96 20:17 EST Received: from ind-005-236-209.iquest.net by iquest.net with smtp (Smail3.1.28.1 #16) id m0thRAz-00034pC; Tue, 30 Jan 96 20:17 EST Message-Id: Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Amy Stinson" To: List Managers Date: Tue, 30 Jan 1996 20:17:20 -0700 Subject: Re: List-Managers-Digest V5 #16 Reply-to: amys@iquest.net X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.23) Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On 30 Jan 96 at 15:31, mitnick ian ( bs ifsm) wrote: > Date: Tue, 30 Jan 1996 15:31:42 -0500 (EST) > From: "mitnick ian ( bs ifsm)" > To: Brock Rozen > Cc: Billy Harvey , > List Managers > Subject: Re: List-Managers-Digest V5 #16 > does list-managers greatcircle have a phone number? I have tried every > way to cancel this list managers thing > Im getting 100 messages a day from this I was kind of curious how he managed to get 100 messages since he responded to a digest? Is just *anyone* allowed on this list? amy Amy Stinson email: amys@iquest.net agstinso@nyx.net Home Page: http://www.iquest.net/~amys Thought for the day: I am prepared to meet my Maker. Whether my Maker is prepared for the great ordeal of meeting me is another matter. -- Winston Churchill From list-managers-owner Tue Jan 30 23:23:13 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id XAA18835 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 30 Jan 1996 23:13:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from [198.102.244.42] (pb520.greatcircle.com [198.102.244.42]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id XAA18824; Tue, 30 Jan 1996 23:13:21 -0800 (PST) X-Sender: brent@miles.greatcircle.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 30 Jan 1996 23:13:50 +0100 To: amys@iquest.net, List Managers From: Brent@GreatCircle.COM (Brent Chapman) Subject: Re: List-Managers-Digest V5 #16 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 8:17 PM 1/30/96, Amy Stinson wrote: >Is just *anyone* allowed on this list? Yes. -Brent ----------------------+----------------------------+------------------------ Brent Chapman | Great Circle Associates | 1057 West Dana Street Brent@GreatCircle.COM | http://www.greatcircle.com | Mountain View, CA 94041 ----------------------+----------------------------+------------------------ Internet Tutorials from the Experts! From list-managers-owner Wed Jan 31 00:23:21 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id AAA20102 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 31 Jan 1996 00:21:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from Post-Office.UH.EDU (Post-Office.UH.EDU [129.7.1.20]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-951221-1) with ESMTP id AAA20097 for ; Wed, 31 Jan 1996 00:21:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from UUCP-GW.CC.UH.EDU by Post-Office.UH.EDU (PMDF V5.0-5 #8380) id <01I0N6RLG9G40006K6@Post-Office.UH.EDU> for list-managers@GreatCircle.COM; Wed, 31 Jan 1996 02:20:19 -0600 (CST) Received: from Taronga.COM by UUCP-GW.CC.UH.EDU with UUCP id AA19616 (5.67a/IDA-1.5 for list-managers@GreatCircle.COM); Wed, 31 Jan 1996 01:50:35 -0600 Received: (from arielle@localhost) by bonkers.taronga.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id WAA05298 for list-managers@GreatCircle.COM; Tue, 30 Jan 1996 22:32:38 -0600 Date: Tue, 30 Jan 1996 22:32:38 -0600 (CST) From: arielle@taronga.com (Stephanie da Silva) Subject: Re: List-Managers-Digest V5 #16 To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Message-id: <199601310432.WAA05298@bonkers.taronga.com> X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-type: text Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Amy Stinson: > On 30 Jan 96 at 15:31, mitnick ian ( bs ifsm) wrote: > > > I have tried every way to cancel this list managers thing > > Im getting 100 messages a day from this > > I was kind of curious how he managed to get 100 messages since he > responded to a digest? And to add to the noise, I'm sort of amused he was complaining about the 100 messages per day. One of my lists does often run over 100 messages per day. When you're on a list that active, it's kind of hard to miss. From list-managers-owner Wed Jan 31 07:11:58 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id HAA05458 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 31 Jan 1996 07:06:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from sowebo.charm.net (sowebo.charm.net [199.0.70.21]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id HAA05453 for ; Wed, 31 Jan 1996 07:06:11 -0800 (PST) From: flora@flora.com Received: from flora.com by sowebo.charm.net; Wed, 31 Jan 96 10:04 EST Date: Wed, 31 Jan 1996 10:04:55 -0500 (EST) >From: Richard Tryzno Ellsberry X-Sender: flora@sowebo.charm.net To: list-managers-digest@greatcircle.com Subject: mX-Header: Within Majordomo. Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I run 2 M'domo lists and am grateful for yesterday's information here concerning X-Headers. Two questions arise: 1. Can one 'customize' any reasonable header by simply appending 'X-' to it -- 'X-Copyright:', 'X-Hi-Mom:', 'X-Communicated:', 'X-Post-Facto:', 'X-Cetera:' ? 2. Can the above be implemented from a standard Majordomo 'newconfig' operation? There already exists a 'reply_to' switch for invoking the 'Reply-To:' header, but how would one activate the 'X-Hi-Mom:' header? Thanx in advance - off-list or on. But other novices would probably also appreciate your answer ... Richard@Flora.Com http://www.charm.net/~flora/ From list-managers-owner Wed Jan 31 07:17:49 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id HAA05399 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 31 Jan 1996 07:04:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from iquest1.iquest.net (iquest1.iquest.net [206.27.192.200]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id HAA05391 for ; Wed, 31 Jan 1996 07:04:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from iquest.net by iquest1.iquest.net with smtp (Smail3.1.29.1 #11) id m0the3w-000BBZC; Wed, 31 Jan 96 10:03 EST Received: from ind-000-236-58.iquest.net by iquest.net with smtp (Smail3.1.28.1 #16) id m0the3O-00035QC; Wed, 31 Jan 96 10:02 EST Message-Id: Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Amy Stinson" To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Date: Wed, 31 Jan 1996 10:01:56 -0700 Subject: invalid email addresses Reply-to: amys@iquest.net X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.23) Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Lately it seems as tho I'm getting my fair share of invalid email addresses subscribing to my list. While some of them seem to be the work of Mozilla, many of them aren't. I had someone send in about 20 requests with the email address of: your-login@inet.net I'd unsubscribe them and they'd be right back. FINALLY they subscribed and put their email address in the mail, so I could write them back and tell them that they had to have their mailer configured correctly in order to subscribe, and showed them where it was wrong. Before that, I couldn't do anything about it other than remove the invalid address. Aren't these systems doing any user detail validation? I mean if inez@inet.net is trying to send an email and the user name is your-login@inet.net, shouldn't that bounce back as an invalid user name? I was just wondering. Amy Amy Stinson email: amys@iquest.net agstinso@nyx.net Home Page: http://www.iquest.net/~amys Thought for the day: Life is what happens to us while we are making other plans. -- Thomas La Mance From list-managers-owner Wed Jan 31 08:09:03 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id HAA07508 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 31 Jan 1996 07:59:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from vent.pipex.net (vent.pipex.net [158.43.128.5]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id HAA07503 for ; Wed, 31 Jan 1996 07:59:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from tadpole.intertrader.com by vent.pipex.net (8.6.12/PIPEX simple 1.20) id PAA11185; Wed, 31 Jan 1996 15:58:09 GMT Received: by tadpole.intertrader.com (Smail3.1.29.1 #8) id m0theuR-0004EDC; Wed, 31 Jan 96 15:57 GMT Message-Id: Date: Wed, 31 Jan 96 15:57 GMT From: Rachel Willmer To: list-managers@GreatCircle.com Subject: Is there a "How to Run a Mailing List" FAQ? Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I'm about to start a mailing list which could get rather busy. Is there a newbie's guide I can read about the problems I'm going to encounter before I hit them for real? Or a guide to good practice? Thanks Rachel -- Intertrader Ltd - Internet Services for Business Internet Services: Web Design, Online Databases, Online Commerce, etc. Email rachel@intertrader.com or visit us at http://www.intertrader.com/ Mail autoresponders: info@intertrader.com, prices@intertrader.com From list-managers-owner Wed Jan 31 10:14:33 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id JAA13138 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 31 Jan 1996 09:59:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from mhs.city.grande-prairie.ab.ca ([206.75.224.67]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id JAA13098 for ; Wed, 31 Jan 1996 09:59:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from NetWare MHS (SMF70) by mhs.city.grande-prairie.ab.ca via Connect2-SMTP 4.00; Wed, 31 Jan 96 11:00:02 -0700 Message-ID: <29480F3181476BE1@mhs.city.grande-prairie.ab.ca> Date: Wed, 31 Jan 96 10:59:00 -0700 From: Chet Meek Organization: City of Grande Prairie To: list-managers@greatcircle.com (LIST_Man_#24) Subject: Non List Managers as Subscribers to this list X-mailer: Connect2-SMTP 4.00 MHS to SMTP Gateway Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > At 8:17 PM 1/30/96, Amy Stinson wrote: >> Is just *anyone* allowed on this list? And Brent Chapman replied: > Yes. -Brent As a non list manager I am glad that the list allows such to subscribe. I have learned a great deal from reading this list, some of which I have been able to pass on to new e-mail users (and list subscribers) at my installation. I think we are better informed and much better list and net citizens as a result. We appreciate your insights; and we are grateful to see things here which we would not likely think about otherwise. We have posted guidelines for subscribing and posting to mailing lists (many of which were learned here) on our web site. We get lots of traffic visiting that page, at least some of which comes from university classes who have been referred there for ideas. Overall, I think it is a con- siderable benefit that some of your list managers might not have considered. Anyway, thanks for allowing us to listen. - Chet. ---[ Chet Meek ]--[ E-mail: cmeek@city.grande-prairie.ab.ca ]--- City of Grande Prairie, Alberta, Canada Voice: 403+538-0443 1 9 9 7 -- Forest Capital of Canada Fax: 403+539-1056 World-Wide Web: http://www.ccinet.ab.ca/city-of-gp/homepage.html ---[ Strategic and Business Planning in a Municipal Setting ]--- Home of the CyberCity Initiative: readying GP for the Info Age From list-managers-owner Wed Jan 31 11:23:50 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id KAA14916 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 31 Jan 1996 10:53:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from iquest1.iquest.net (iquest1.iquest.net [206.27.192.200]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id KAA14911 for ; Wed, 31 Jan 1996 10:53:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from iquest.net by iquest1.iquest.net with smtp (Smail3.1.29.1 #11) id m0thhe1-000BBvC; Wed, 31 Jan 96 13:52 EST Received: from ind-006-236-237.iquest.net by iquest.net with smtp (Smail3.1.28.1 #16) id m0thhdb-00033jC; Wed, 31 Jan 96 13:52 EST Message-Id: Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Amy Stinson" To: Chet Meek , list-managers@greatcircle.com Date: Wed, 31 Jan 1996 13:51:35 -0700 Subject: Re: Non List Managers as Subscribers to this list Reply-to: amys@iquest.net X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.23) Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On 31 Jan 96 at 10:59, Chet Meek wrote: > > > At 8:17 PM 1/30/96, Amy Stinson wrote: > >> Is just *anyone* allowed on this list? > And Brent Chapman replied: > > Yes. -Brent I wrote that with tongue firmly planted in cheek. I subscribed to this list before I started my list because you can't go any further than you know. It's just that that poor guy seemed hopelessly lost and Rob Novak's note tickled me so much that it seemed sort of funny at the time to ask. Amos Amy Stinson email: amys@iquest.net agstinso@nyx.net Home Page: http://www.iquest.net/~amys Thought for the day: Advertising (n): the science of arresting the human intelligence for long enough to get money from it. -- Stephen Leacock. From list-managers-owner Wed Jan 31 22:54:00 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id WAA22224 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 31 Jan 1996 22:45:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from digital.netvoyage.net (digital.netvoyage.net [205.162.154.10]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id WAA22207 for ; Wed, 31 Jan 1996 22:45:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from digital.netvoyage.net (digital.netvoyage.net [205.162.154.10]) by digital.netvoyage.net (8.6.11/8.6.9) with SMTP id WAA00957 for ; Wed, 31 Jan 1996 22:44:41 -0800 Date: Wed, 31 Jan 1996 22:44:41 -0800 (PST) From: Brock Rozen To: List Managers Subject: Problems with Prodigy Message-ID: X-URL: http://www.netvoyage.net/~brozen MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Just so everybody knows, I just had about 50-100 messages bounce from Prodigy...I guess you shouldn't worry if and when it happens to your list also. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- | Brock Rozen | brozen@netvoyage.net | http://www.netvoyage.net/~brozen | ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From list-managers-owner Wed Jan 31 23:23:46 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id WAA22857 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 31 Jan 1996 22:57:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from bricks.mailback.com (bricks.mailback.com [199.2.107.42]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-951221-1) with ESMTP id JAA00483 for ; Tue, 30 Jan 1996 09:00:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from byron ([199.2.119.44]) by bricks.mailback.com (post.office MTA v1.9.1 ID# 0-10251) with SMTP id AAA156 for ; Tue, 30 Jan 1996 08:59:34 -0800 X-Sender: bklunz@mailback.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.1.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 30 Jan 1996 08:54:33 -0800 To: list-managers@greatcircle.com From: Byron Lunz Subject: Re: Ghost members Message-ID: <19960130165931546.AAA156@byron> Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 01:38 AM 1/29/96 +1000, Jeff Anderson wrote: >I have just discovered something I find quite fascinating. On my >(Majordomao) maillist, if a non-member attempts to send to the list, it >(admin) bounces to me. If a person who was a list member, but who has since How are preventing posts from non-members? Restrict_post or moderation? >been unsubscribed, sends something to the list, it goes through ok. This >person is not receiving mail, hasn't since being unsubscribed, but can >definitely post to the list. Can anyone tell me why? If you're using restrict_post, he could be forging his From header, using a member's address. If you're using moderation, I'll bet he knows or has guessed one of the list passwords (there are 3, at least in 1.93). -- Byron